lsd like trip through meditation?

[malakaix]

Isn't this the old Alan Watts argument "When you get the message hang up the phone?".

I think this depends largely on the users intent behind using psychedelics.

For me, i wanted to understand 'why?' and consequently took copious amounts of large dose's of different psychedelics in my attempts to understand. I eventually found my 'message' after two years and from that, began practicing meditation as a means of integrating my insight into my daily life.

These days if i do trip, its purely for creative inspiration, im a music fanatic.. and the two blend in amazing harmony.

I have had some powerful experience's with meditation, mainly back in the day when i was practicing deep meditation in an attempt to awaken myself spiritually through Kundalini, some were on par of that of a small dose of DMT.

 

[Psychodelirium]

Why does that matter tho? Presumably the Tibetan monks have been meditating constantly for decades and they still gouge out their slaves eyes as punishment. Do I need to meditate for 50 years to reach "their level"?

You say that as though it's the monks who've been meditating for decades are the ones gouging out eyes. Somehow I doubt that's the case. But anyway it doesn't really matter. There's enough hard science on meditation now that if you really want to know whether it works or not, you can look at the research instead of asking whether meditating cultures are nicer or not.

Doesn't Buddhism trascend culture?

Obviously not, but the practice of meditation does. Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, all have a mystical or esoteric wing that transmits techniques for stilling the mind and attaining extreme states of concentration. These techniques go by different names but they are all basically about the same thing. Stop thinking, stop moving, focus your attention and watch what happens.

Also, while it is common to claim that meditation will make you a nicer or more moral person or whatever, these kinds of claims are I think missing the point. Meditation will make you a more attentive person, and it will allow you to access states of extreme concentration and flow states with more reliability.

 

[ControlDenied]

the common ground between psychedelics and most any religion/spirituality is that, you are not actually reaching a "higher level" but rather, neither a lower or higher but a more "nothing level". you are transcending cultural norms such as progress and domination/superiority whether spiritual or material.

monks can be basket cases from years of reflection leading them to feel "more spiritual" than the masses. however since they attain the transcendence of normal thought by years and decades of natural activities (food, work, meditation, communication, nature, art, ritual) rather than short-cut methods such as he notoriously-insanely-powerful drug LSD, they will be far less likely to be "shell-shocked" by their "high level" of spirituality and thus less grandiose and proselytising about the whole God thing. acid spins you into such an intense stream that you are bound to either proselytise it vividly and intensely and defend it as if it were a true god, or to be terrified by it; usually both. that's not to say in any way that acid or even ANY drugs are "bad". simply, it is to say that Thou should not Fuck with God's Medicine. I have truly not met a single user of acid who has not had great difficulty adjusting to society's ideas of progress, sanity and healthy lifestyle. this is probably because it so intense. it shatters your world in an instant. meditation might reach a similar level of "nothingness", but it is reached gradually so it is more a fluid motion that is comfortable because of its natural continuity. powerful drugs - what I called god's medicine - are not to be fucked with outside of their scientific and medical jurisdiction. because of the war on drugs, they are scattered randomly into the hands of people of all walks of life, and taken without discrimination, leading to a great many casualities. sure, its been said repeatedly since the 40s - 60s era of drug abuse, but tell me I'm wrong. [without just saying "you're wrong" to simply annoy me ]

these are simply my current thoughts on the matter; i do not take myself seriously enough to argue a philosophy; all i argue for is reflection, sanity and health.

 

[calculateddesign]

I have experience with classic psychedelics and I can tell you 100% ive gotten LSD-like visuals while meditating, it happens quite easily and often for me. albeit they are not full blown peak like visuals but they have gotten to abt 33% of the intensity of chemical induced tripping

 

[SKL]

the common ground between psychedelics and most any religion/spirituality is that, you are not actually reaching a "higher level" but rather, neither a lower or higher but a more "nothing level". you are transcending cultural norms such as progress and domination/superiority whether spiritual or material.

monks can be basket cases from years of reflection leading them to feel "more spiritual" than the masses. however since they attain the transcendence of normal thought by years and decades of natural activities (food, work, meditation, communication, nature, art, ritual) rather than short-cut methods such as he notoriously-insanely-powerful drug LSD, they will be far less likely to be "shell-shocked" by their "high level" of spirituality and thus less grandiose and proselytising about the whole God thing. acid spins you into such an intense stream that you are bound to either proselytise it vividly and intensely and defend it as if it were a true god, or to be terrified by it; usually both. that's not to say in any way that acid or even ANY drugs are "bad". simply, it is to say that Thou should not Fuck with God's Medicine. I have truly not met a single user of acid who has not had great difficulty adjusting to society's ideas of progress, sanity and healthy lifestyle. this is probably because it so intense. it shatters your world in an instant. meditation might reach a similar level of "nothingness", but it is reached gradually so it is more a fluid motion that is comfortable because of its natural continuity. powerful drugs - what I called god's medicine - are not to be fucked with outside of their scientific and medical jurisdiction. because of the war on drugs, they are scattered randomly into the hands of people of all walks of life, and taken without discrimination, leading to a great many casualities. sure, its been said repeatedly since the 40s - 60s era of drug abuse, but tell me I'm wrong. [without just saying "you're wrong" to simply annoy me ]

these are simply my current thoughts on the matter; i do not take myself seriously enough to argue a philosophy; all i argue for is reflection, sanity and health.

This is a great post.

Driving also at what Im trying to get at.

Im not trying to talk shit about L ... which is something at the end of the day that I love. But the most important point here in all of this is the effect that L tends to have on people, especially the unprepared, but even the experienced. The grandiosity and true-believerism mixes in with a dose of paranoia and a sense of having unlocked secret esotericmysteries,which all reinforces the grandiosity, which is reflected in paranoia, which creates a head space that everyone here I am sure is well familiar with if you have spent time around acid users.

Does every acid user wind up this way? No. But I would say nearly every acid user that Ive known has struggled mightly with these issues. Many of the mhave been helped in life by LSD too but almost all of them have struggled with these sorts of problems generated by the difficulty of reintegrating the LSD experience to ordinary life

 

[zn13bt]

I have truly not met a single user of acid who has not had great difficulty adjusting to society's ideas of progress, sanity and healthy lifestyle. this is probably because it so intense.

Or maybe it's because "society's ideas of progress, sanity and healthy lifestyle" are utter crap, and LSD helps you see that.

 

[calculateddesign]

^agreed

 

[Hammilton]

I've been meditating daily for about 12 years, anywhere from 15 minutes to 2 hours. I average about 20 minutes a day.

Has it ever recreated an LSD like experience? No, nothing remotely similar. Ego death is the only real similarity, and it's very different. It most closely approximates the afterglow one experiences, imo.

However, it does remind me of sedatives. Meditating more than 30 minutes leaves me feeling extremely relaxed, almost sedated, and while it certainly doesn't leave you euphoric, it is a great feeling.

I'm working on quitting Suboxone right now, and as I cut down, I meditate more. I'd like to ultimately replace my desire to use with a desire to meditate. Addiction to meditation would certainly be easier to deal with

 

[calculateddesign]

Hamilton- your telling me youve had ego death meditation but youve never gotten the colorful visuals in the centerfield of your eyes when theyre closed and ur meditating? I get a swirly multicolored fractal that sometimes shoots off and covers my entire field of vision before returning to the swirls.

 

[Psychodelirium]

Hamilton- your telling me youve had ego death meditation but youve never gotten the colorful visuals in the centerfield of your eyes when theyre closed and ur meditating? I get a swirly multicolored fractal that sometimes shoots off and covers my entire field of vision before returning to the swirls.

Are you staring into your visual field with your eyes closed? I imagine it would depend on how exactly you meditate. I start getting hints of tryptamine visuals if I really concentrate on the visual field but I hardly ever do that. Normally I just put my attention on the breath and bring it back every time it breaks.

 

[andreas]

who remembers the story of hendrix and a few members of led zeplin going to moroco to see how guys there would get completely off their heads with out drugs...I would say its an altered state but then again so is taking drugs

I dont remember the whole story but it was about naturally getting high and think it was through meditation and chants

 

[LacunaSamsara]

No offense to you but I'd like to hear the opinion of someone who can meditate for much longer than that. While 2 hours is very noble and accomplished (I applaud you for that), I don't think that's anywhere near the level of dedication that would be needed to prove/disprove this theory/belief.

Personally I want to hear from several people who can meditate for 24+ hours... that would shed some real insight on this I believe.

I've been meditating daily for about 12 years, anywhere from 15 minutes to 2 hours. I average about 20 minutes a day.

Has it ever recreated an LSD like experience? No, nothing remotely similar. Ego death is the only real similarity, and it's very different. It most closely approximates the afterglow one experiences, imo.

However, it does remind me of sedatives. Meditating more than 30 minutes leaves me feeling extremely relaxed, almost sedated, and while it certainly doesn't leave you euphoric, it is a great feeling.

I'm working on quitting Suboxone right now, and as I cut down, I meditate more. I'd like to ultimately replace my desire to use with a desire to meditate. Addiction to meditation would certainly be easier to deal with

 

[Listening]

Lots of interesting discussion here. These topics have been on my mind as well. I've only recently gotten into meditation (have been meditating daily for about six months now) as well as Buddhism. I'm by no means a Buddhist, but I think that the Buddha was onto something and I'm pursuing it until I've seen for myself.

It's worth mentioning that I credit psychedelics (first time was only a few years ago, even though I'm in my 30's) for starting me down a wonderful path. My first psychedelic experience was very much a "wake up!" call, and it's not coincidental that the Buddha taught waking up as well.

I'm still very early in my meditation practice, but my life is already better for it in numerous ways that I will not bore you with here. To those interested in meditation and how it might relate to the psychedelic experience, read Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond: A Meditator's Handbook. Ajahn Brahm's description of jahna's relation to the five hinderences sounds damn close to the effect of a psychedelic breakthrough-dose on the ego, complete with afterglow.

Actually I really have a hard time reading some of the posts in this thread that suggest that meditation and psychedelics have nothing in common. I do not expect to "trip" off of meditation, and that is not my goal in the least (nor would it be a productive goal for meditation), but it's already blatantly obvious to me that psychedelic drugs have a lot to say about the Bhuddist path, and vice versa. I think that the confusion of ideas in this thread reflects the fact that there is so much that we haven't yet made sense of (at least culturally, maybe a few people have figured it out, but they don't seem to be on Bluelight today).

I for one am not done with my psychedelic exploration and I am eternally grateful for my experiences thus far. Nevertheless, the day may come when I decide let them go. Even this early on my path of meditation, I already see that there is more strength inside of my sober self than I ever could have imagined.

I am grateful that the mushrooms found me.
I am grateful that the Buddha found me.
I am open to what comes next.

 

[Ismene]

who remembers the story of hendrix and a few members of led zeplin going to moroco to see how guys there would get completely off their heads with out drugs...I would say its an altered state but then again so is taking drugs

I dont remember the whole story but it was about naturally getting high and think it was through meditation and chants

No, Hendrix never went to Morocco with Led Zep. Hendrix went to Africa for a week or two with a couple of friends on holiday once. And Zep went years later to check out the moroccan music.

You can find lots of religious nutters who think they can get high by various methods - some of the muslims walk through the streets whipping themselves in public. Apparantly that can "get you high" in their understanding of the term too.

 

[Ismene]

You say that as though it's the monks who've been meditating for decades are the ones gouging out eyes. Somehow I doubt that's the case. But anyway it doesn't really matter. There's enough hard science on meditation now that if you really want to know whether it works or not, you can look at the research instead of asking whether meditating cultures are nicer or not.

I think all the monks believed in it - that was common treatment of their tibetan slaves.

I think it matters in the sense that these monks were meditating on the Buddha all their lives and were still about as "spiritual" as the Gestapo.

 

[mavfreeman]

If you have ever seen Woodstock, you know what I'm getting at. I've heard of people meditating to a point of tripping out. To me it seems unrealistic but I wonder....hahaha does anyone have anything to say on the subject? Any experience, do you know how to reach this state of mind through meditation? I'd love to trip but have nothing available

Check out holotropic breathwork!

 

[pupnik]

Wow, this thread goes all over the place, which I guess is normal because we members are all over the map - figuratively and geographically. My experience goes back over the last 50 years - since I was 14 beginning with yoga and then meditation well before drugs.
I took it very seriously.
It is better if you do not take things seriously as that kind of attachment is a hindrance to any progress in anything, besides looking foolish.
when I was 14 and studying yoga I got a touch stone from Lobsang Rampa who was a fake tibetan monk selling knick knacks - the stone was actually plastic but I used it and actually got a strong sensation from it which I later identified as yogic or meditative jhana (refered to earlier in this thread by someone). Eventually I gave the trinket away to someone, but it really worked for me.
prior to 15 years of age I learned yoga breathing and postures from a book. I got good at it but did not keep it up so now I really am not very good at the postures any more.
my first exposure to meditation was mail order instructions for a hindu meditation scheme (sent to me free by the self realization foundation - followers of paramahansa yogananda) on the medulla oblongata (chackra) and it was both visualization and visionary.
By 16 I found a tibetan buddhist teacher (westerner who was ordained to rinpoche status) well prior to Trunpa getting big in America who taught me several methods of meditation including some visualizations, and with this guy I learned more about jhana, but the emphasis was more mandalic, experiencing everything as a totality, centered, expansive, connected.
This western Tibetan teacher also taught about symbolism, thankas, tarot, yoga, dance, and many other explorations (1967-1971) including batik art, and in one session of batik art making he produced a piece with 4 circles on it progressing from left to right, and between each circle was a curved link:
he described this illustration as consciousness, a series of mind moments with links. - I puzzled over this for years, and it is still core to my understanding of mind.

My cousin went to Thailand around this time to be a Buddhist monk, and came back 3 years later while I was going to university, so I continued meditating with him, as his grasp of the whole thing was very strong.
Eventually I was only doing a simplified version of Burmese style vipassana, which I highly recommend. It is not really oriented towards jhana states, but is very good for not taking things too seriously and for getting better in touch with what is really happening, while sometimes the jhanas do come into it as well.
I still do simple breathing meditation today which to me is the best connection to the moment.

I think there is a connection between psychedelic states and meditative states of mind because of the feedback, resonance and phenomena that arise when layering of persisting moments set in.