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lsd like trip through meditation?

seemoresky

Greenlighter
Joined
Aug 27, 2010
Messages
17
If you have ever seen Woodstock, you know what I'm getting at. I've heard of people meditating to a point of tripping out. To me it seems unrealistic but I wonder....hahaha does anyone have anything to say on the subject? Any experience, do you know how to reach this state of mind through meditation? I'd love to trip but have nothing available
 
I consider myself experienced (6+ years) with zazen (sitting meditation), and I've also dabbled in kinhin (walking). If you have no access to psychedelic drugs and want to trip, you're really barking up the wrong tree. To be sure, one can experience some very interesting things while meditating, but I'm fairly certain that no contemplative practice will produce an LSD-like experience. "Mystical" epiphanies and other such phenomena, yes, but definitely not a "trip" in any sense.

However, meditation as an adjunct to the use of psychedelics can serve to further deepen both practices, IME. And in general meditation can be a great thing in one's life, psychedelia aside. I recommend it. :)
 
Actually, it IS possible to induce "trips" while meditating but not in the LSD psychedelic sense. You can trance yourself out all over the universe through meditating and experience a lot of the things that you can experience on psychedelics but it is a much more spiritual experience and IMO it is much more rewarding. Trips are unpredictable for the most part and a lot of the perception on a trip is just that, perception. You never truly know if it was REAL. With meditation, everything that you experience is real.

Unfortunately, in order to induce states of trance like that, the soul itself must be very adept at achieving such things. This is why a lot of people use low dose psychedelics as a spring board into a transcendental meditation - it drops the conscious mind just enough to let the subconscious take over. I've had some incredible journeys this way.
 
I agree that such effects (what could be called "astral projection" or "spiritual journeying") are possible to achieve through meditation, but they are in no way typical from what I've seen both in myself and in the experiences of others. To clarify, when I said "definitely not a 'trip' in any sense," I meant more in the way of an LSD-like experience, which we both agree one won't get through meditation. I don't doubt that a trip or a journey can happen (I've had a couple of spontaneous experiences of this sort), but it will have marked qualitative differences from an LSD trip.

Really, I think it comes down to one's intentions (insofar as one can have any without falling into goal-oriented thinking, which can impede on one's practice): for when I sit, I do so in order to bring myself back in the present, using the breath as a point of focus and thus allowing other thoughts to cease. But my meditative practice can be neatly placed in the Zen Buddhist tradition, which doesn't at all emphasize any kind of spiritual or shamanic journeying. And in fact most practices I've researched that are called "meditation" (Zen, Vipassanā, Rāja Yoga/dhyana) don't emphasize this as an object -- I think the OP would be better off looking into things like astral projection, shamanic journeying, lucid dreaming, etc. if this is the kind of non-drug induced trip he's after. It seems that meditation, or simply relaxed concentration, or achieving an alpha state, functions more as a component of this kind of practice, rather than as a total means of metaphysical travel.
 
Well meditation can be altered to suit the individual person. I taught myself transcendental meditation at the age of 10 and I'm sure that my meditation style is not traditional by any sense of the word but its powerful and effective... and I really should get back to doing it more often... A bit off the track but anyway.

I think it is definitely possible to experience higher states of consciousness similar to the mindstate of LSD but it is not something you can just sit down one day and say "hey, I'm going to expand my consciousness without taking any drugs today" and 15 minutes later be in a theta brain wave state exploring the dimensions. It doesn't work that way. It takes a lot of practice, a lot of time, and a lot of discipline to get the mind connected to such states of higher consciousness. Also be aware that too much drug use can completely undo that connection... I should know. Only took me a single night of rolling too much and playing with energy to complete fuck my chakras. My energy is still massively out of balance and I've even had some of the best healers work on me and get overwhelmed and have to stop.
 
^ It seems that we're mostly in agreement here, the main difference being in our terminology: your definition of meditation seems more encompassing of a wider range of experience than mine, whereas I have a more specific thing in mind when I use the word. And I totally agree that meditation in any sense of the word takes a lot of practice before one can derive some real benefit from it.
 
Certain things can happen in meditation that also happen on drugs, but just getting fucked up and tripping out is not one of them if that's what you're after.

Also I've found that meditation is kind of counter-intuitive in that interesting experiences will happen when you're meditating only when you don't really care whether they happen or not, but not if you're meditating with the goal of making them happen. If you sit down and say to yourself, "I want to trip today", you probably won't. But if you sit down and say to yourself, "I'm just going to sit and concentrate," you might.
 
On a very related note, can one achieve an altered state comparable in intensity to 5-meo-dmt or Salvia? I'm wondering how intense the shift can be, even without visuals.

Psychedelics usually boost visuals the most but they also change your perspective and mindset dramatically (mindfuck). Many feel that meditation goes far but doesn't do anything visually since visuals are not the point. That means mentally, comparisons are fair game. 5-meo-dmt is the highest you can go mentally, from what I've read.

Are you telling me that nirvana (if reached, or maybe the state below it is reached) is nothing compared to 5-meo-dmt / Salvia / DMT? I find that hard to grasp. It won't be the same, but to say the intensity is less... sounds a bit silly when I think about it.
 
If you sit down and say to yourself, "I want to trip today", you probably won't.

To clarify, I do not mean this when I ask about altered states, I'm only curious in the intensity possible through sober meditation.
 
Its not possible to relate an experience that happened in a theta state with an experience that happened with a full blown hallucinogen... They are two entirely different states of being... I don't think there would be any way to cross over and compare the two. I have experienced ecstasy - in the truest meaning of the word - through meditation - but I can't liken that to anything outside of the realm of meditation and the different levels of consciousness...
 
On a very related note, can one achieve an altered state comparable in intensity to 5-meo-dmt or Salvia? I'm wondering how intense the shift can be, even without visuals.

Psychedelics usually boost visuals the most but they also change your perspective and mindset dramatically (mindfuck). Many feel that meditation goes far but doesn't do anything visually since visuals are not the point. That means mentally, comparisons are fair game. 5-meo-dmt is the highest you can go mentally, from what I've read.

Are you telling me that nirvana (if reached, or maybe the state below it is reached) is nothing compared to 5-meo-dmt / Salvia / DMT? I find that hard to grasp. It won't be the same, but to say the intensity is less... sounds a bit silly when I think about it.

They only seem directly comparable to drug users who think the idea of meditating to trip sounds cool, IMHO. Leading to similar conclusions is not the same thing as being a similar experience.

You seem to have a very linear understanding of the mind. What does it mean to be the 'highest you can go mentally' or be 'the state below' nirvana? Nirvana is freedom from suffering, not the top of some transcendental pyramid of altered states.

IMHO, if you approach meditation to try to achieve recreational drug-like states, you will never get there. I recall reading about a Zen Buddhist monk whose students gave him LSD, and he basically said he had already experienced the worthwhile aspects of the trip from meditation.

Describing an experience in terms of intensity implies that you are still a singular, egoic conscious entity who is aware of a 'normal' baseline experience and can compare their current state to that baseline. "I'm really fucked up right now and I know this because X, Y and Z are happening to my mental processes when they normally wouldn't." That's the mindset of a person taking a drug, not a person practicing transcendental meditation.

My two cents - the unconscious mind is capable of producing all the effects we attribute to psychedelic drugs, except for maybe the visuals (that may be caused by the drugs themselves interacting with the visual cortex). You can't just train your unconscious to give you recreational trips on demand, though. If you don't want to use chemicals to induce the state, you need to get very, very deep into some sort of meditative practice to tap into your unconscious.

I come at this personally from more of a psychoanalytic perspective; I don't believe in chakra or a transcendental soul in the quasi-Buddhist sense. One need not invoke spirits to explain the process, IMHO. It's not something I have a lot of personal experience with, though, so perhaps I would feel differently if I had approached these issues from a different perspective initially. At any rate, OP: if you like drugs and are out of LSD, meditation is certainly not going to be your immediate replacement. I would view the vaguely "LSD-like" things you can experience with meditation as a side effect of a deeper attempt to understand your own unconscious; you can't aim directly for it as your end goal, it comes naturally as you dig deeper into yourself.

This may be slightly OT but I think this thread is digging at a fundamental difference between Western and Eastern spirituality. Westerners tend to approach spiritual topics as systematic ways to eliminate uncertainty about things like the meaning of life and the inevitability of death. There are lots of rules, lots of structure and a clearly defined end goal (eternity in Heaven). It's easy to look at Eastern spiritual systems through this lens and distort them - nirvana is just Buddhist heaven, right? However, a more Buddhist way of looking at it would be to say that nirvana is a principle and a way of being that we should all always strive toward, and that it's more important to constantly search for ways to better align your life with this principle than to worry about 'reaching' it or not. Some schools of Buddhist thought are a bit more literal with the cycle of rebirth and end goal of being liberated from it, but that's really more the Hindu influences of the more religious (as opposed to philosophical) readings of Buddhism. It's not "I will use meditation to achieve the highest evolution of consciousness and stay there," but rather, "I will use meditation as a tool to further my journey of self-understanding and self-reflection." Buddhism and related camps of Eastern thought are more about asking questions than answering them, and "meditative tripping" is a process of questioning oneself, not the final answer or endpoint of some linear transformative process.

Hope that didn't come off as overly pedantic or high-and-mighty. Like I said, I don't ascribe to these views myself; this is just how I've come to understand them as a sympathetic outsider.
 
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Not pedantic at all. That was insightful. I'd benefit from a dialog with you, I have some ideas about the nature of sobriety/altered/high/tripping/ego death/meditation. They are all assumptions though, I'm not that learned in this topic.

For instance, is it possible to directly experience (with the aid of psychoactives or otherwise) anything we can imagine intellectually? Let's say I have the idea of turning into a geometric line and that in this state I would perceive myself as nothing more than a temperature. Could we say that this experience could be experienced through whatever means by anyone who can understand?

If someone else experiences that through a psychedelic but don't have the ability to make sense of it, did they truly experience it? Or did they experience whatever their mind allowed them to experience?

You get where I'm going with that, it's a hard question to formulate.

Another thing. Is it truly, completely impossible to describe some psychedelic experiences or even express them in any way? I've had so many problems struggling with this. It just doesn't make sense. Linguistically, there must be a term for the concepts and visually (through sculpture, etc) there has to be a way for a sober person to make sense of it the way the tripper did. Not "feel it" but comprehend it.

Some make it sound as if things so complex happen that no word exists for it. That can't be. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that Solistus, if you don't mind. :D

Does this warrant a separate thread? I could go talk about this day in and day out. We could be discussing such things for months on end.
 
To clarify, I do not mean this when I ask about altered states, I'm only curious in the intensity possible through sober meditation.

I want to say that it's not really about the intensity. But one way of looking at it is that psychs can cause you to have very intense experiences that are also very ordinary, listening to music being an obvious example. Meditation can cause you to have experiences that are intense in this way. I.e. it is not that you are experiencing something really weird or anomalous (as you can on breakthrough dmt doses and so on) - you are experiencing the same ordinary objects that you usually do, but you are looking at them in a different way, and it is the enormity of the difference that is intense. Actually it may be fair to say that what meditation does is lower the threshold of intensity for experience across the board, so that all of your experience begins to seem more intense. This is because meditation trains concentration, and the more concentration you have, the more attentive you are to your experience.
 
Yes! You got it! Perfect. I was just thinking about that yesterday after watching a video while focusing on my breath. I got the distinct impression that I was no longer sober. It was as if my body was completely still and waves of pleasure would go up my spine. Waves of deep relaxation and concentration.

I got sober music enhancement! No joke! It was nothing like normally listening to music. The sound waves tickled my physical body and I was fixated on the video, which was a fractal animation.

Meditation lowers your sensitivity to things. You know what I think? Correct me if I'm wrong, but prior to the stimulus/sensory overload of today's information consumption age, I'm convinced that people would meditate in front of tapestries, grids of patterns, and get an immense, immersive effect that many of today's youth would think of as tripping or getting high.

Am I right?

BTW, I'm loving where this topic is going. Loving it.
 
I don't know about trips through meditation, but self-induced sober trips are definitely a reality. I am a certified hypnotist and have hypnotized quite a few people to experience a variety of drug experiences. I've been able to tell subjects that each time I snap my fingers it will be like taking a shot of liquor, and after a few snaps they will slur their words and stumble around like they're completely trashed. I've also been able to help friends on probation to recall their smoking experiences while under trance. I've even given post-hypnotic suggestions that they could bring back the stoned experience by simply rubbing their thumb and index finger together slowly. You can watch their eyes slowly become half closed and blood-shot, they also experience real cotton-mouth. I've done the same with tripping. While under trance I tell the subject to remember the best trip they ever experienced. Once they remember the experience I tell them to focus on the visuals and and physical sensations of the memory. Once they are at the peak of the experience I give them a trigger that they can use to bring back the experience at will. You can also trigger bliss states and orgasms through hypnosis. So my suggestion would be to study self-hypnosis if you are looking to induce a recreational experience. Meditation is about self-realization, not recreation....
 
They are two different mechanisms of self-exploration. Each one has its own unique virtues.
 
If you have ever seen Woodstock, you know what I'm getting at. I've heard of people meditating to a point of tripping out. To me it seems unrealistic but I wonder....hahaha does anyone have anything to say on the subject? Any experience, do you know how to reach this state of mind through meditation? I'd love to trip but have nothing available

Well I went to a sesshin with my best friend one time which was basically like 8-10 people in a big lodge in the woods, very long and frequent meditation sessions and no talking other than the absolutely necessary things.

Honestly, at the end of that week I was taking a walk with my friend through those woods and everything was vibrant and sparkling and pure. It reminded me totally of LSD but much more natural. My ego had retreated very far, or was much more integrated in my center.

Of all psychedelics I find good quality LSD to be a very transparant one, mescaline even more native feeling and Zen-meditation is obviously the absolutely most transparant natural method.

It was very hard to sustain that state returning to a world full of impulses, but while I was in it, it was much more stable than a trip. In a trip these processes are catalyzed and negative aspects are magnified as well and have to be integrated at great velocity. Through meditation the process goes at your own natural pace making your resilience very strong!

In that week I went through phases that reminded of a long-during LSD trip as well, including visuals and dissociated-like states nearing OBE's. I told the Zen master about these effects and he told me it was a bit extraordinary for a relatively inexperienced za-zen practising buddhist to get this (I think its the psychedelics that opened these doors for me earlier), he also told me these visuals and stuff were what is called makyo. It is this veil that one has to ignore and go beyond to see everything much more at peace. This is IME also experienced at the tail end of LSD trips. Another way to achieve this is to take 150 ug LSD and trip off that, then after the plateau take another 400 ug at least. It will not produce a new full-on trip but give a very strong afterglow-like effect that is very pure and clearheaded.

Quoted wiki about makyo:

Makyo refers to the hallucinations and perceptual distortions that can arise during the course of meditation and can be mistaken by the practitioner as "seeing the true nature" or kensho. Zen masters warn their meditating students to ignore sensory distortions. These can occur in the form of visions and perceptual distortions, but they can also be experiences of blank, trance-like absorption states. In the Zen school, it is understood that neither category of experience – however fascinating they may be – is a true and final enlightenment.

This is what I experienced as well. In all my years of tripping there have been so many visuals and other stuff that led me to believe this was the nature of things that I could not see before. But in rare trips I got to this stage where I went deeper and the visuals disappeared. And that felt much more enlightening, usually in such a state whatever I say or do is exactly what I mean to say or do. Or better yet: there is no more me coming between what is happening around me and what I make happen because I do it. It all just happens, everything flows naturally. It's beautiful and I wish I had the power to hold on to such a thing more sustainably, but this hectic world makes it SO hard! It's a blessing that we can achieve such states artificially when we really use these tools the right way (which I admit, I have not achieved that many times really), and I feel sort of proud that I got to experience it by meditation alone and I don't think I could ever feel more deeply connected to another person than when I was with my friend that day. He is my best friend and doing that together entangled us forever.

<3
 
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Solipsis, I'm glad you brought up makyō, as this thread got me to thinking about a related passage from Dale Pendell's poem/essay, "Amrta: The Neuropharmacology of Nirvana." It resonates with me especially due to its concern with the inclusive nature of Mahayana, allowing for a synthesis of contemplative discipline and ecstatic vision in a both/and sense rather than either/or:

The question of entheogenic drugs more generally is the question of
ecstatic visions. Divine madness. Makyō

Makyō: the Path of Illusions; Path of Dreams. A feeling of great
numinosity.

Ma, hemp-spirit, Mara, the devil in the phenomenal world. Makyō are
visions that appear at certain stages of the meditation path.

A deep dream of participation in the Buddha Dharma.
—Robert Aitken


The Surangama Sutra lists fifty types of makyō, ten for each of the five
aggregates of form, receptiveness, conception, discrimination, and
consciousness. The Buddha states that these visions are harmless, even
excellent progressive stages, unless the practitioner believes that they
signify complete attainment.

In this clear and penetrating state of your mind when it looks
within, its light appears in all its purity and at midnight you will
suddenly see in your dark room all sorts of apparitions as clearly
as in broad daylight, with all the other objects usually there. This
is the mind, in its subtlety, refining its clear perceptions which
enables you to see distinctly in the dark. This temporary
achievement does not mean you are a saint. If you do not regard it
as such, it is an excellent progressive stage, but if you do you will
give way to demons.
—Surangama Sutra


To poison poison, the Peacock Path. The way of transmutation.

The blue color of the peacock is the blue of Shiva, the blackness of
Vajrapani: the color of the poison-drinker.

In jungles of poisonous plants strut the peacocks . . .
— Dharmaraksita: Wheel of Sharp Weapons: A Mahayana
Training of the Mind


The Boddhisattva of Makyō, the Poison Buddha, The Bodhisattva of
Illusions: the buddha with 108,000 names who teaches and saves with
illusion. Whose very name poisons preconceptions, who leaves us in a
soup of dreams.

We know this path in our imaginations, or is it our memories? A path
that includes ecstasy and ecstatic visions, the God of Ecstasy, Shiva, or
maybe Dionysus: the Bodhisattva who gave us his very blood as a
medicine for crippling inhibitions, that the true soul emerge.

Dionysus, by nature unrecognized, but surely present in the pantheon: a
young god with the rank of bodhisattva.

Iconography: sometimes rides a panther, sometimes an ass.
Androgynous. Usually with long hair. associated with the thyrsus and
tambourine, wears a garland of ivy leaves (a cure for drunkenness). God
of music, poetry, song, and the theater. Dharani may include eating wild
mushrooms, and raw flesh (emblamatic of the food web and
interdependence).

Associated with springtime, and an ecstatic state of consciousness often
mistaken for madness, but more appropriately named Great Joy.
Enthusiastic exuberance.

Wrathful aspect: hawk eating a ground squirrel; cat playing with a
mouse, waiting, letting it revive and run in order to catch it again. Two
schoolgirls catching fireflies, pulling the abdomens off and sticking
them onto their arms and the backs of their hands, dancing and
laughing, their jewelry aglow with green light.

Let a thousand schools flourish, the way of Buddhism is assimilation,
not rejection. The Divine Madness school of Buddhism, watched over by
the Bodhisattva Dionysus, who uses enthusiasm and ecstatic visions as
devices . . .

And thus Bodhisattvas are likened to peacocks:
They live on delusions - those poisonous plants.
Transforming them into the essence of Practice,
They thrive in the jungle of everyday life.
Whatever is presented they always accept,
While destroying the poison of clinging desire.
—Dharmaraksita
 
Didn't McKenna once reference a monk that was supposed to be able to make his pineal squirt DMT through meditation?
 
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