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Low Dose MDMA and Upregulation

Folley said:
^ The majority of studies saying lower doses are not damaging are only talking about a SINGLE dose... not everyday use over an extended period of time.



if it's simple serotonergic action that is causing the upregulation than surely there are MUCH safer alternatives
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Can you link a study that's administered like 20-40mg MDMA? I've never even seen one.

MDMA’s release of serotonin modulates receptor enzymes and stimulates astrocytes to release Neurotrophic Growth Factors (NGF)
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This is the theory, which appear's to suggest that it's MDMA's specific mechanism of serotonin release that would have the potential to stimulate neuronal growth. If it was just increasing serotonin then I agree that other drugs could be a better option. But it could be the actual mechanism by which serotonin is released that is also important. Further, there isn't a drug, known to man, that is able to selectively release serotonin like MDMA does. M-CAT causes comparable release but is far less selective to serotonin, instead imposing further actions on dopamine. Perhaps methylone could be an option? I don't really know how methylone works.

I'm not convinced that there are other alternatives. MDMA is such a unique drug.
 
I think 20-40mg was pure speculation, but I remember some people talking about it on this forum, so I may be wrong.

I don't think methylone would be an option since it has 1/3rd the affinity of MDMA for serotonin transporters. I'd imagine MDAI would be the safest option since it's non-neurotoxic, but it still has the problem of not releasing as much serotonin as MDMA. MDAI also doesn't really affect norepinephrine or dopamine, which may have an indirect role in the release of NGFs.
 
Zalo said:
I think 20-40mg was pure speculation, but I remember some people talking about it on this forum, so I may be wrong.

I don't think methylone would be an option since it has 1/3rd the affinity of MDMA for serotonin transporters. I'd imagine MDAI would be the safest option since it's non-neurotoxic, but it still has the problem of not releasing as much serotonin as MDMA. MDAI also doesn't really affect norepinephrine or dopamine, which may have an indirect role in the release of NGFs.
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The recommended dosage was 0.25mg-0.45mg/kg. Hence why I said around 20-40mg.

I agree that there probably isn't a good alternative. Zalo, do you know of any studies that have given low doses of MDMA? I've never seen one.
 
Nobody will ever take or prescribe you a "every day" dose of MDMA, its just so stupid.

The therapeutic effect is reached when you get high on 90 - 120 MG single dose. It will be prescribed rarely, because MDMA is pretty strong substance, and it can make things worser in "mentally ill" ppl.
 
I'd assume a dose that high would only be used for clients with PTSD and couple's therapy. In these cases MDMA helps people work with their feelings a lot better.

The therapeutic value for low dose MDMA seems to be purely a change in brain chemistry, which leads to a change in the physical structure of the brain. The dosage and frequency of taking it is speculation.
 
I see what it says... A low dose daily causes serotonin release but at the same time acts as a neurotoxin so the combined effect would some how stimulate the brains ability to grow new receptors. Just because it is a neurotoxin does not mean that this doesn't happen and might actually be the cause. (I haven't read the article).

I can't imagine taking 1mg/kg being considered a low dose. you have your head up in the sky if you even came close to considering that. your in trouble and I think you need to be carful? be carful not to fuck up to bad?

I would consider 1mg for any body weight to be a low dose. small enough to get some molecules in the brain and not feel any negatives for a long time.
 
I wanna see studies on the mechanism of how these new serotonergic neurons are sprouted, until they discern whether its simple serotonin release or MDMA specific then the use of some other releaser is really moot to discuss. An in regards to racetams doing the same thing, I very much doubt, as mentioned MDMA would likely be direct stimulation of neurons in mood-related specific regions.

This has always been interesting to me this topic!
 
Folley said:
Would something like EDMA not be MUCH better for this purpose?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDMA
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That is interesting. If it is quite simply a serotonin release which underpins the theory, then that would, hypothetically, work and appear safer. But's it not clear whether the mechanism of release is important to the subsequent NGF stimulation. There's also the fact that it might not have the potency to really stimulate serotonin at low doses. I'd hazard a guess that MDMA is the only drug, that we currently know of, that has a serotonin-selectivity potent enough to actually warrant low dose study.

I wonder if such a low dose actually causes any nor/dopamine release?
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If it does, i'd imagine that it would be negligible. The one study I read which examined 5-HT, DA & NE release, from MDMA, saw DA/NE at about half the increase of 5-HT (5-HT increased 900%, DA/NOR increased 400%.). But that was from 1.7mg/kg doses. And we know that the psychoactive effects of MDMA are not linear, often seeing a steep increase once dosage increases above 100mg. This is part of the reason why MDMA is so neurotoxic at high doses, yet not so at lower doses.
 
Oh god I can't even bear to read the comments on this thread, either totally derailing it trying to suggest "WHY DON'T YOU JUST TAKE NOOPEPT INSTEAD DUHHH NGH DUHHH" were not talking about fucking noopept are we, two completely diffident drugs you nonse, or saying "OMG 1MG PER KG THAT WON'T EVEN GET ME GOING BRO" thats because its being used therapeutically to induce neuroplasticity not get off your tits. Oh and the people refusing to even look into it because MDMA is so obviously a neurotoxin, yeh because there have been tons of study of MDMA at a controlled low-dose haven't there.. on a lighter note if anyone has attempted this drop me an inbox, will be trying it soon and recording my results
 
Oh and I doubt you're supposed to take it everyday, more like ever ythree months, use it to set the blueprint for a new pathway then give your brain time to heal/grow, using everyday would surly result in neurotoxcity
 
Just leave this shit to parties or special weekends.
Totally bad idea to use this everyday.
You get addicted?
 
Desohigh said:
Just leave this shit to parties or special weekends.
Totally bad idea to use this everyday.
You get addicted?
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Probably not. MDMA is one of the least psychologically addictive drugs available, just like LSD & Psilocybin. We're not talking about taking recreational doses of MDMA everyday, rather smaller doses as a potential serotonin-stimulator for neural growth. Considering that most anti-depressants try to reduce depressive symptoms via serotonin increase, perhaps MDMA could have a similar effect - in the correct doses. It is important to remember that MDMA really isn't a significant neurotoxin at lower doses.
 
^ MDMA not addictive? I think you'll be very hard pressed to prove that. It has a heavy dopaminergic action, as well as a number of other EXTREMELY pleasurable effects. Addiction isn't just taking more and more everyday, compulsive weekly dosing is very common in those who abuse MDMA

I don't think a low dose everyday would be "addicting", but it would seem to me there are many better options out there.

Dannlixi said:
Oh and I doubt you're supposed to take it everyday, more like ever ythree months, use it to set the blueprint for a new pathway then give your brain time to heal/grow, using everyday would surly result in neurotoxcity
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So what, 25mg every three months? You really think that will have an effect? Or 100mg every three months... because that's called rolling :\
 
Folley said:
I've had thoughts on using MDMA in a similar fashion.. but in reality, it's a neurotoxin. You should be limiting your exposure to it as much as possible.


It just doesn't seem safe to me
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You can apply that same logic to water lolz
 
^ MDMA not addictive? I think you'll be very hard pressed to prove that. It has a heavy dopaminergic action, as well as a number of other EXTREMELY pleasurable effects. Addiction isn't just taking more and more everyday, compulsive weekly dosing is very common in those who abuse MDMA
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It's common knowledge that MDMA isn't typically addictive. I think you'll be hard pressed to prove otherwise, unless you delve into some Government references. Even in Government propaganda they don't usually bother emphasizing addiction, instead just saying it will make you depressed and destroy your cognition. Sure it's pleasurable, but if that's your arguement for why it is addictive, then I suppose just about any activity which is pleasurable is addictive. Weekly dosing is not addiction. Potentially damaging abuse - yes - but not addiction. Addiction involves a psychological and/or physical dependency to that drug in able to feel fully functional. It usually involves continuation of that drug despite obvious negative consequences. I'm sure we can all relate that when you take MDMA you don't feel compelled to constantly redose. At least I know I don't. I've walked home with lots left before just because I didn't want to take more. Transfer the drug to alcohol, and I find myself buying drinks all evening even when I know the night is coming to an end just to keep the alcohol buzz going.

I don't think a low dose everyday would be "addicting", but it would seem to me there are many better options out there.
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You keep saying this and there may well be. But if there was another drug out there which could do what MDMA does without the risks associated with MDMA, then sign me up for that shit!
 
Who says that though, the people who are dosing every week?


MDMA is a very reinforcing drug, although due to it's effects it creates patterns of abuse that don't come out everyday. There's a thread in DITM about how cannabis is addictive, even though the majority of people say that doesn't happen either. Just because people say it doesn't make it true.



Addiction is defined by Wikipedia as:

the continued repetition of a behavior despite adverse consequences
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Saying that doesn't happen in a large amount of MDMA users is... a lie :\
 
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