Low dosage psilocybin to treat depression?

[bit_pattern]

I won't bore anyone (mostly myself) with the details but I've been a long term depressive for as long as I can remember, although since I stopped doing drugs and became increasingly more self aware over the last few years I've started to recognise what i always took to be normal as a relatively deep state of depression. I've taken a lot of mushrooms in my time though haven't dosed for quite a number of years now. IME tryptamines have only ever improved my state of mental health but still kind of scare the beejesus out of me. It's coming up to mushie season where I live (they'll start popping up in about two months or so) and I'm thinking about dosing again because nothing else I've tried (cognitive therapy, healthy eating, acupuncture omega-3 etc etc etc) is really helping me and I was recently reminded of some of the research that's been going on with psilocybin therapy.

Thing is though that all of the studies i've seen refer to high dosages and for the life of me I can't put myself through that kind of experience again (the last tryptamine trip I did was ayahuasca in Peru, was just too much). What I'm wondering whether anyone has any experiences or research that involved successfully treating depressive symptoms with quite low dose psilocybin trips? In the past I've found that low doses of DMT rolled into a spliff has had quite striking anti-depressive qualities that have lasted for several weeks in the past. I was googling psilocybin dosage levels for depression and came across a thread on the shroomery that talked about so-called 'micro dosing' but couldn't get much in the way of a definitive answer.

Basically, my idea is to pick a bunch of fresh subaeruginosa and dry them, dosing at maybe 1/8 - 1/4 gram every week or two for an extended period to try and stabilise myself.

Again, anyone have any thoughts/experiences/research that they could share? Is it a good idea, pointless, dangerous? Any thoughts whatsover would be greatly appreciated.

Mods - was going to post this in TDS but thought it might be triggering and outside the remit of the forum, please move or advise if you think PD isn't the best place to be posting.

 

[xx001]

A good trip can do wonders for depression. You don't need to have a very intense trip, though. A medium dose is fine. A good 150ug lsd trip often leaves me feeling great for several weeks after.

 

[bit_pattern]

Thanks

Don't think I'll ever take LSD again though TBH and 150ug is probably way above the comparable psilocybin doses I'm talking about. Can't remember what the policies re: linking to other forums is like here on BL but if you google microdosing you'll find what I'm talking about - people are talking about taking as little as .1g of dried material.

 

[Achten]

I can tell you from experience that for me 0.5gr of dried homegrown mushrooms is great for depression.
The afterglow doesn't really depend on the dose, IMO.

If you're not opposed against chemicals, 10-15mg MiPT does the same for me, and it's less "dramatic" (is that what you're looking for ?) than mushrooms.

 

[kidklmx]

Honestly don't feel it will change much. I'm depressive too (not that psychological issues can be compared..), and while an afterglow seems present it doesn't change a whole lot in my behavior. Maybe a mood lift, sure, but I don't think it's going to change things. Psilocybin has been shown to give people a better personality in terms of openness though, that could change enough in your life to warrant a behavioral change. If you choose to proceed then please let us (or at least me? ) know how things go

Micro-dosing Ibogaine seems to be more beneficial, I'm currently researching (as in using Google) that as a possibility.

 

[manman]

for me, I *always enjoy shrooms around the 1g mark..
Never once had a bad trip and always feel, energized, refreshed around that 1g area.
(+1 or 2 hits of cannabis and I'am chillan)

 

[Asante]

pick a bunch of fresh subaeruginosa and dry them, dosing at maybe 1/8 - 1/4 gram every week or two for an extended period

That, good Sir, sounds like a plan.

I dont know the strength of that shroom but I know from personal experience with minimal dosages of psilocybin that between 1.5-3mg psilocybin equivalents is just right for me. Typically I take 0.33gr Psilocybe cubensis or 0.15gr Psilocybe cyanescens for a minimal dosage, and its greatly envigorating without upsetting my mind too much. I tend to spend the time thinking constructively about my life and grinning like an idiot solo, and with lots of laughter and punning, socially.

once in 2 weeks sounds right too for that amount.

 

[Ismene]

I think the high dose is going for the idea of a spiritual awakening helping your depression, I don't think that's really the way to go. However spiritual your trip is, within a week or two you're getting up at 5am in the pissing rain going to a job you hate. That tends to decrease the effects of the trip.

What I found worked was tripping on a regular basis, depending on how many mushrooms you can grow, once a week, once a fortnight etc. Regular use of psilocybin definately does something permanent to your brain to stop you feeling such crippling depression.

 

[a tree]

Propably aMT could give you a more antidepressing effect than mushrooms.

 

[Ismene]

^^

Might be worth a try but I think psilocybin is the daddy.

 

[kidklmx]

That'd be a good idea Ismene, but OP already said that he doesn't want to trip anymore and that's probably for good reason. Plus IME, self-medication of psychedelics can turn out the wrong way. I was hoping this path would be my salvation but it hasn't. In fact, turns out a bit of spirituality was the last thing I needed. I've alienated myself from a lot of people and I'm no longer comfortable with the way society is right now. Everyone seems to be mad. These are not things you want to add to the bucket list of negative introspective thoughts one might have when depressed.

This is not an "oh I have it so bad" post, because I don't have it so bad. I'm probably the happiest person with a depression ever, and I'm living a healthy and good life thanks to psychedelics. Just rather something to keep in mind when you're in a rut and want to help yourself through psychedelics. Self-medication like this can be very dangerous. It's just a shame psychological research is still in it's infancy, there doesn't seem to be a "fix" and everyone just seems to be doing whatever.

Your idea is good though for a lot of people, but not those who have been through years of trying to get things back together.

P.s I still think micro-dosing Ibogaine will be more beneficial. It has SSRI-like properties, and I think it's afterglow is longer lasting though I can't be sure. It has been quite successful for a lot of people. But the price of picking shrooms (free) beats low-dose Ibogaine (that's still €5,- per dose or something..) by a long shot, so it's at least worth a try

 

[Ismene]

^^

I think it's worth a try all the same tho - there's as much chance of psilocybin working as SSRI's which are no better than placebo, and "talking therapies" or "buddhism" or what have you. I found psilocybin was the only thing that worked for me after years of depression.

Gonna be difficult to pick enough shrooms to keep a decent yearly supply tho - perhaps the pf tek is the thing to study in that case!

 

[bit_pattern]

Thanks for the replies everyone!

I dont know the strength of that shroom but I know from personal experience with minimal dosages of psilocybin that between 1.5-3mg psilocybin equivalents is just right for me.

Yeah that's why I thought I'd mention what I would be taking, subs are considerably more potent than cubensis. I was a bit frustrated with the shroomery because people were talking dosage but not what types they were using, there can be a considerable difference. Think I might need to revise the dosages down a bit.

I think it's worth a try all the same tho -

I see your point, I've certainly had very postivie results from "spiritual" doses but I've also had plenty of spiritual type trips and I really, really can't put myself through that again.

0.15gr Psilocybe cyanescens for a minimal dosage

I believe that subs are closer to cyanescens in potency, sounds about the range I might try.

 

[bit_pattern]

That, good Sir, sounds like a plan.

I dont know the strength of that shroom but I know from personal experience with minimal dosages of psilocybin that between 1.5-3mg psilocybin equivalents is just right for me.

Have you seen this calculator?

http://www.shroomery.org/6257/Magic-Mushroom-Dosage-Calculator

Cyanescens have about 6 mg per g compared to 8mg per g for subaeruginosa - so I'm thinking about .125g? Probably even less. What the heck does a point of dried mushrooms even look like, lol?

 

[timps]

Hi bit_pattern,
I've posted a couple of times before mentioning my experiences with mushrooms and depression, but in threads on other subjects where I felt my thoughts were relevant.
I used mushrooms, along with other psychadelics to work stuff out, after being stuck in a pattern of cyclical depression for many years. I've now been depression free for around 14 years, other than the inevitable post mdma use depression.
I also found that for me magic mushrooms helped stop post mdma depression at a time a few years ago when overuse made me have terrible comedowns. I was experiencing a dreadful comedown which showed no signs of lifting after almost a week. I was worried about tripping while my seratonin levels were depleted, but I fortunately had a good trip, and the next day woke to find my mood back to normal, or a little higher (afterglow?).
Since then I've repeated this several times, but with what I'd consider a therapeutic dose (around 0.5g dried liberty caps) as opposed to a recreational dose (of around 2.5g) which I used in the trip I mentioned above, and found I got the same benefits.
I no longer abuse mdma, only using small amounts infrequently, so I don't get bad comedowns, and no longer need to use this remedy.
I hope you've found this useful, and feel free to pm me if it would help.

 

[bit_pattern]

Thanks timps - very useful. I like hearing you differentiate between therapeutic/recreational doses and that you consider low doses as being therapeutic . How regularly did/do you dose?

 

[cosmicsunset]

Unfortunately it appears that legitimate scientific inquiry into this topic is being stifled: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/apr/07/magic-mushrooms-treat-depression

but hey, without government oppression life would just be too easy and we'd all get bored right? lol

I have bipolar depression myself but I'm towards the depression end of the spectrum. Based on past experiences with both drugs I'd say ketamine has more potential (but that's just my own anecdotal evidence). It's currently being studied: http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/study/NCT00088699

I don't see the dosage listed on that page but I think I previously read that it was 0.5 mg/kg IV. That's far lower than the dosages used for anesthetic purposes but still enough to induce a fairly strong "trip" for about 20 minutes. Insufflation (snorting) would probably be effective but I have no idea how that would impact the dose requirement.

The purpose of these drugs is to alleviate depression while a patient is waiting for the traditional antidepressants to take effect. Even if you decide to take these drugs illegally you should still probably see a psychiatrist and get on at least one antidepressant so hopefully you can get some long term relief.

For me it's taken more than just prescriptions, although that's a very important component. I read a book called "the mindful way through depression" that talks about how to use meditation to reduce depression. I've been amazed how well that's seemed to work and now I meditate for 20 minutes almost every day. But it kind of takes everything together. Prescriptions, fewer recreational substances, meditation, eating a little better and some exercise. I also found a job after being unemployed/disabled for a long time, and moved to a better living situation. Despite all that I'm still somewhat depressed and when I feel good I have a hard time determining if I'm slightly manic or just genuinely doing well. There is no real "cure" for biological depression. Good luck.

on a possibly unrelated side note if you're using mdma like timps was I strongly suggest taking 5-HTP and vitamin C the day after to reduce the depression and any brain damage that may otherwise occur.

 

[bolinas]

In the past, i've noticed prescription antidepressants (like fluoxetine or (es)citalopram) are helpful to me. They make occasional tryptamines an overall much more positive experience for me. 5-meo-mipt in small doses works well with SSRIs. Smoked 5-meo-dmt is much smoother while on paroxetine. And so on...

 

[EarthBounded]

I won't bore anyone (mostly myself) with the details but I've been a long term depressive for as long as I can remember, although since I stopped doing drugs and became increasingly more self aware over the last few years I've started to recognise what i always took to be normal as a relatively deep state of depression. I've taken a lot of mushrooms in my time though haven't dosed for quite a number of years now. IME tryptamines have only ever improved my state of mental health but still kind of scare the beejesus out of me. It's coming up to mushie season where I live (they'll start popping up in about two months or so) and I'm thinking about dosing again because nothing else I've tried (cognitive therapy, healthy eating, acupuncture omega-3 etc etc etc) is really helping me and I was recently reminded of some of the research that's been going on with psilocybin therapy.

Thing is though that all of the studies i've seen refer to high dosages and for the life of me I can't put myself through that kind of experience again (the last tryptamine trip I did was ayahuasca in Peru, was just too much). What I'm wondering whether anyone has any experiences or research that involved successfully treating depressive symptoms with quite low dose psilocybin trips? In the past I've found that low doses of DMT rolled into a spliff has had quite striking anti-depressive qualities that have lasted for several weeks in the past. I was googling psilocybin dosage levels for depression and came across a thread on the shroomery that talked about so-called 'micro dosing' but couldn't get much in the way of a definitive answer.

Basically, my idea is to pick a bunch of fresh subaeruginosa and dry them, dosing at maybe 1/8 - 1/4 gram every week or two for an extended period to try and stabilise myself.

Again, anyone have any thoughts/experiences/research that they could share? Is it a good idea, pointless, dangerous? Any thoughts whatsover would be greatly appreciated.

Mods - was going to post this in TDS but thought it might be triggering and outside the remit of the forum, please move or advise if you think PD isn't the best place to be posting.

I would not try to cure depression by dosing mushrooms every week or two, cluster headaches and end of life therapy are among the only proven cures of psilocybin. I would not use them more than 6 times a year and thats even a lot, if you do it too often you are just messing with your serotonin levels and just dosing booms to much can put you in a funk, if you dosed every week you would have to deal with 1-2 days of a mushroom hangover which would suck and definitely would not help someone with depression ! I would dose 3.5g of standard gold caps no more than every two months. You can only expand your mind so much plain and simple.

I just had a very interesting experience with Yopo snuff helping treat Addiction and depression you can read about it here. I must say this is a very powerful scary ride and not for everyone but if you really want to change some things consider it.

Honestly just going out and picking mushrooms may be healthier and more relieving for the mind then a regiment of psilocybin, maybe engage in more spiritual nature hikes and look for other plants, foods etc... Even gardening helps alot of people

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/672703-Bufotenin-Helped-me!

I am not saying psilocybin wont help treat depression I am just saying dosing too much may prolong it or make it worse, Healty diet exercise and a positive attitude are going to help you more than anything, if you have a severe chemical in-balance the only person who can treat that is a doctor, also sobriety is more powerful than anything when it comes to depression, use psychedelics sparingly if experimenting for depression they do have the ability to make depression better and worse I look at it as a gamble pretty much using sparingly helps with me at least for a positive outlook too much and I feel like I am not growing as a person.

 

[stillmind]

Didn't look it up but I'm almost certain what inspired Moreno et als groundbreaking pilot study on psilocybin and OCD was a patient of his who'd successfully treated debilitating OCD by dosing mushrooms daily for a protracted period (six months IIRC?). After awhile, the subject no longer experienced any primary effects (i.e., he no longer tripped at all) but his OCD remained in remission after he stopped dosing (not sure how long the follow up was though).

Obviously OCD isn't the same as depression, but given that many of the same pharmaceutical interventions work for both, it doesn't seem impossible that the same regimen might work for depression.

I should also note though that the actual study (12/2006, Journal of Clinical Psychiatry) employed fewer, higher dose experiences, and that also showed tremendous promise, with I believe all subjects experiencing some degree of remission, and for some subjects it persisted at (6 month?) follow up.

You might consider starting with low dose spaced trips, but if that doesn't work, increasing the frequency gradually, up to perhaps daily dosing. Of course you'll want to carefully monitor both psychological and physical state throughout your experiment.