Low Codeine Addict and Suboxone

[JeanJM]

I'm just looking for people's opinions and support about what is happening with me. Here is my story:

I've been addicted to Codeine for 7 years at around 380mg per day never exceeding that dose. My life was normal like everyone else I just sollowed pills throughout the day. It never hindered me or caused me or my family any problems but I decided to get help from CADS anyway and managed to C/T but had an extremely horrible time, was hospitalized twice and started having visual/audio hallucinations plus a major freak out I had to be sedated. So I was put back on Codeine but only at 150mg. I didn't get high but I didn't get sick either so it was a stabilization dose CADS told me and it worked. I felt normal and got myself a new job and everything was going smoothly until CADS decided to take it away from me.

2 weeks after being on the stabilization dose I got myself a new job and was really happy everything was working out for me. I went into my CADS meeting all smiles, optimistic and looking forward to the future. I chatted with the Interns I said could sit in my meeting and then all of a sudden the Doctor at CADS said I was too happy so I must of been 'really really high' and took away my stabilization dose putting me on Sustained Release DHC which caused me to fall asleep at my desk, weird eye wobbles and eventually I was fired due to making too many mistakes. I explained to CADS what was happening and they didn't seem to care.

The next meeting at CADS went even worse with the Doctor taking away the Sustained Release DHC and telling me I had to choose between Methadone or Suboxone or nothing. I wasn't ready to taper off just yet and no way in hell was I going to be put on Methadone or Suboxone for 150mg of Codeine. I tried explaining that 150mg Codeine would = 0.3mg Buprenorphine and the lowest dose it comes in is 2mg which is way more than I even need, like 6x the amount. Also Naloxone shouldn't been used in people with a history of seizures but the Doctor didn't care. I was given 2 weeks to make my decision.

2 weeks later I bough my Mother and Partner into the meeting and all hell broke loose with my Mum on the offensive about putting someone like me on Methadone or Suboxone after she did her own research. The Doctor even told us his other patient who was on 300mg Codeine was put on 8mg Suboxone and was doing 'great' That right there proves he doesn't know what he's doing with Suboxone and when questioned about side effects or dependancy he didn't really know but said Suboxone withdrawal was easier than most opiates and it was 'less addictive'

From the moment I went to CADS I was open and honest about everything and now I just don't know what went wrong? Why am I being treated like this. What do you guys think?

 

[Captain Brewster]

Don't go on methadone or suboxone for a codeine habit man. From what I've read/heard withdrawals from the both will be a hell of a lot worse than coming off codeine.

It's something you'll regret later on in life

Out of the three main choices you have, I would taper myself down slowly with codeine.

And learn and study how to perform a Cold Water Extraction (CWE), plenty of info on here to teach you how. Otherwise your liver will cop a fair bit of damage from paracetamol or stomach from ibuprofen (whichever painkiller you decide to use).

 

[heythatsmybike]

sorry to hear about your troubles brother, and a big WTF to your situation. You sound like you have your head screwed on alright so my suggestion is maybe you should just use your own step down program. Codeine addiction is relativly easy to counter as opposed to other opiates qnd it is more readily available. If you havent already, get onto CWE and dry out your extractions under a cheap fan or something. This way you can easily administer a regulated dose and weigh it up accordingly. Just take it week by week and slowly get yourself off of it.

As far as the episode you experienced, I dont feel I can have a solid contribution towards it. Maybe some of the more experienced guys could give you some advice, but meditation would help for sure.

Goodluck with it all.

 

[Halif]

Hi JeanJM

That is a shocker of a story you got there. Seriously.

I don't know why you are being treated that way, but I doubt it's anything to do with you personally and everything to do with a terrible lack of knowledge, understanding, and empathy that exist in some sections of the world of 'professional' medical treatment. Some people have good stories to report, and others - many others, unfortunately - have experiences like yours.

Taking you off a very modest dose of codeine and offering you only two very potent, very addictive choices is bizarre to say the least.

You mentioned that you used to just swallow the pills throughout the day... I guess that means you were taking over the counter painkillers with either a lot of ibuprofen or paracetamol in them.

Are you familiar with the CWE (cold water extraction) method of preparing codeine? If you were stable on a 150mg daily dose of codeine, and now have only two choices which you'd rather avoid (understandably), then maybe 'taking the matter into your own hands' could be a short term solution.

By the way, what is CADS? I guess it's a drug therapy/maintenance place, but I've not heard the abbreviation before.

edit: HAHA! Two guys got in with the same idea before I'd finished typing. So, I guess you can see what everyone's thinking...

 

[JeanJM]

Hi Guys thanks for the replies!!!!!!!!

CADS is our Community Alcohol and Drug Services place that offers treatment for addiction. I do CWE on and off depending on my time and where I am. At work I'll just take the pills whole but at home do the CWE. I get health tests every 3 months to see if any damage has been done and so far I've been really lucky.

I can't believe they are even allowed to consider Methadone for someone like me and Suboxone? Noooo from all the stories I've read about it. Last weeks meeting the CADS Doctor asked my permission to phone all the Pharmacies and I said no so he said he would do it anyway and they could possibly post my photo. Are they even allowed to do that?. He kept saying I was breaking the law and am a criminal. o.o I feel like they are taking away all my options to force me on Suboxone. I will have to taper myself I guess but nice and slowly.

 

[Halif]

He kept saying I was breaking the law and am a criminal. o.o I feel like they are taking away all my options to force me on Suboxone. I will have to taper myself I guess but nice and slowly.

Yes, taper off and reclaim your freedom and identity. You don't need someone telling you that you're a criminal, or taking away medications because you appear to be in a good mood. Fuck all that.

Addiction is highly complex and comes in many forms, so I don't want to minimise your situation by saying that 150mg (or even 380mg as per your peak habit) codeine is a 'small sized addiction'. However, I'm sure that most people who have experience with a range of opiates/opioids would prefer to taper off a relatively small codeine habit than any size of buprenorphine or methadone.

I'm amazed by your experience with CADS (thanks for explaining that one to me!), to be honest... to have your modest stabilising dose of codeine suddenly taken away because you seemed 'too happy' is bizarre. Then to be forced to choose from two far stronger alternatives, which for many people are near-impossible to get off, is mind-blowing.

Finally, to be told repeatedly that you're breaking the law and are a criminal.... well.... where the hell is this place?! (That's a rhetorical question - I'm just saying it doesn't sound like an attitude fit for a so-called developed nation with modern sensibilities).

Good luck!

 

[pinkanga]

Im gonna be blunt... 380mg is fucking such a small dose dude. Taper down and be done with it. I mean jesus... the first thing you could do is make 360 your ma dose considering N+, P+, ... etc come in 30 packs equaling 360mg. Then go to 300mg.... are you telling me that you would honestly notice that 60mg?

Seriously. Youre lucky your daily dose is so small.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Im gonna be blunt... 380mg is fucking such a small dose dude. Taper down and be done with it. I mean jesus... the first thing you could do is make 360 your ma dose considering N+, P+, ... etc come in 30 packs equaling 360mg. Then go to 300mg.... are you telling me that you would honestly notice that 60mg?

Seriously. Youre lucky your daily dose is so small.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I've never taken a dose of codeine over 400mg under the assumption it has a ceiling effect and any more past that point will produce no stronger effects. Wouldn't that make 380mg quite a high daily dose, and 7 years of it I'd assume would produce some horrific withdrawals. Once again, never been addicted to opiates and use codeine recreationally no more than twice a year average, so correct me if I'm wrong

 

[Halif]

I've never taken a dose of codeine over 400mg under the assumption it has a ceiling effect and any more past that point will produce no stronger effects.

I think quite a few members on this board have found that the 400mg 'ceiling' is a myth. Certainly in my experience there used to be a notiaceable difference between 400 and 800, or even 400 and 600mg.

Is the ceiling dose thing something that started after someone read it on a reliable source? Where did it come from?

 

[pinkanga]

The ceiling dose thing/rumour/myth is a myth. Many people have provided anecdotal evidence here on bluelight. In this thread even (or its earlier incarnations).

You do make a point though in as much as 7 years of a medium dose like 380mg is still going to be extremely uncomfortable to kick. Sorry OP... I didnt mean to imply that it would be easy. That feeling of codeine/opiate withdrawal is so fucking ghastly and disgusting that it scars the shit out of anyone having to face it..... no matter how small th dose.

The good news is that 380 really is comparatively low and if you figure out a plan for yourself you really should be able to beat it. But yes... a 7 year habit of anything would be hard to break, even if it that habit wasnt a drug.

 

[opi8]

Ceiling dose has a lot to do with the CYP2D6 enzymes in your liver. Some are high metabolizers, some are low. Some benefit from 1 gram plus, others codeine will never get them high. This isn't really the issue here though.

Don't go on methadone or buprenorphine, which it sounds like you've already decided. You could easily taper down by buying codeine OTC which is probably the best idea that I could think of for you in your situation.

It sounds like this CADS group are being of no benefit to you at all, in fact, it sounds like they want to make things worse for you, this is not how people seeking help should be treated.

I think the majority of this forum, and especially those who have been through opiate addiction would advise you to taper down yourself, maybe tell these fools that you will be going cold turkey - thanks for the help or whatever, but do not go onto serious maintenance drugs for a codeine addiction. I know - it feels terrible. But please understand, that it's not nearly as bad or as difficult to get off than the medications they are trying to force on you. I think that is complete and utter bullshit. Medical malfeasance. How can these so called experts get away with it?

Seriously, buy some codeine from chemists, do some CWE's and taper down yourself. If pot helps you relax, maybe use some of that. You will feel a little off for a week or so once you finally make the jump but that really is nothing compared to what these "professionals" are trying to force you into.

Where is the duty of care in this situation? Fuck this health system.

 

[JeanJM]

Im gonna be blunt... 380mg is fucking such a small dose dude. Taper down and be done with it. I mean jesus... the first thing you could do is make 360 your ma dose considering N+, P+, ... etc come in 30 packs equaling 360mg. Then go to 300mg.... are you telling me that you would honestly notice that 60mg?

Seriously. Youre lucky your daily dose is so small.

Nothing wrong with being blunt Here is my story if interested:

I used to have a 380mg daily Codeine habit for the past 7 years and now I'm down to 150mg. It all started when I got extremely depressed and was trialled on 3 anti-depressants (separately) over a year with intense therapy which caused me to try and take my life twice due to the way they made me feel or lack of feel actually. I lost all interest in everything, lost my job, my partner and a lot of weight. Then one day I was offered Nurofen Plus in the pharmacy for period pain and it was like a light switch for me (I'm one of those lucky people that is very sensitive to opiates). I immediately felt like myself again with a side of euphoria and a warm blanket sensation. I knew Codeine was addictive but it was something I was happy to accept.

I got a new job, met my current partner, became interested in my hobbies again and was social once more. A few years later I decided to get counseling for my depression and I worked through my issues. I was no longer swallowing pills to hide my emotions; instead I was taking pills at the same time every day, more of a routine I guess.

Everything was great, life went on until now when I went and sought help. Now I’m in a shite position because of CADS trying to force me on Methadone or Suboxone. I lost my job due to them taking me off my Codeine Maintenance treatment and putting me on Sustained Release DHC. Why did they take me off? Well because apparently if I’m happy and talkative it must mean I’m high as a kite according to the Doctor...UH I can’t even be myself around them for fear of them misinterpreting my personality.

If I had it my way I would take Codeine as much as I wanted or needed. I believe if you aren’t hurting anyone and it’s not destructive to you or people around you, you should be able to do what you want. We are adults and should choose to live life how we want to live life but I guess unfortunately we don't live in that society so I have to do what's best for me and that is to taper off slowly.

I take my doses spread throughout the day, the highest amount I've had in 1 sitting is 90mg and that puts me to sleep lol imagine what 380mg or 150mg would do to me.

 

[opi8]

DHC = Dihydrocodeine ?

While living on opiates is an option and not, in itself, extremely dangerous or harmful, it is still not a great habit to get into because minor opiate addictions can turn into major ones very easily. Since you are where you are at the moment, which is able to get off without suffering too much, the best advice I can give is to do just that. Get some counselling for your problems, that is proven to be a much healthier alternative to using opiates every day - and often works out much cheaper and is more effective. Depending on which state you live in, you may be able to qualify under a mental health plan.

Please don't go on opiod maintenance for codeine.

 

[JeanJM]

I've C/T before off 380mg but only lasted 2 months. The thing that got me in the end was the lack of sleep. I was awake for 6 days straight at the start, so physically tired yet mentally felt so focused it was a weird sensation. The problem when I don't sleep is I start to hallucinate visually and with sounds. I had these black dots with legs crawling up and down my arms and bed covers. There was a pink waffle in a top hat who would just stare at me in the corner. I wasn't scared but the whispering was freaky. You know if you take E and when you leave the club you think you can hear the music coming from cars or just street noise, it was kind of like that but with added whispers.

They tried putting me to sleep with (not all at once) Lorazapam, Diazapam, Zopiclone and Seroqueal. They made me feel like I was in a space suit floating around. In the end I was given 150mg Codeine and I slept 15 hours straight. But once again I got to 4th day no sleep and the hallucinations started again so they kept me on 150mg which I felt normal and was able to function. The physical W/Ds were more annoying than anything with aching legs, twitching, sweating not to mention going to the bathroom constantly. Was nice to drop 10kg lol.

 

[JeanJM]

DHC = Dihydrocodeine ?

While living on opiates is an option and not, in itself, extremely dangerous or harmful, it is still not a great habit to get into because minor opiate addictions can turn into major ones very easily. Since you are where you are at the moment, which is able to get off without suffering too much, the best advice I can give is to do just that. Get some counseling for your problems, that is proven to be a much healthier alternative to using opiates every day - and often works out much cheaper. Depending on which state you live in, you may be able to qualify under a mental health plan.

Please don't go on opioid maintenance for codeine.

Yeah it was that Sustained Release stuff but all it did was make me extremely sleepy and dopey. Not to mention these weird uncontrollable eye wobbles. Anyone else had that?

 

[opi8]

Maybe ask your GP for some kind of sleep aid for the short term only in urgent cases of sleep deprivation, but maybe try meditation and counselling, deep relaxation techniques before bedtime. I know reading works for me but everone's different. Drugs aren't always the answer, and you really don't want to come out of this with a worse addiction than what you came into it with. Opiod Replacement and reliance on sleeping drugs will be worse than codeine.

You will get out the other side of this, but it's not going to happen overnight. Don't give up and remember a lot of people have gone through this before you.

 

[Halif]

I agree with this:

If I had it my way I would take Codeine as much as I wanted or needed. I believe if you aren’t hurting anyone and it’s not destructive to you or people around you, you should be able to do what you want.

But also agree with this from opi8's post:

While living on opiates is an option and not, in itself, extremely dangerous or harmful, it is still not a great habit to get into because minor opiate addictions can turn into major ones very easily.

Jean: It sounds like you were able to get by on a fairly small amount of codeine during the years that you were addicted. Didn't you find that as time went by you needed or wanted to increase the dosage a bit? It's not impossible for someone to use an opiate on an ongoing basis as a kind of anti-depressant or general mood stabiliser, but it's hard to keep the doses steady over time.

For me, my tolerance just sits in one place for a good while and then suddenly goes up dramatically. I have tolerance 'steps'. Every few months it jumps up again, making it harder and harder to maintain let alone get high or feel good.

But, anyway, I hope you find something that works for you. And stay away from CADS!

 

[Jabberwocky]

The ceiling dose thing/rumour/myth is a myth. Many people have provided anecdotal evidence here on bluelight. In this thread even (or its earlier incarnations).

Edit: far too insensitive to the OP, Ill save my comments for another thread

 

[pinkanga]

I dont see how that comment in particular is insensitive.

 

[JeanJM]

Never once went over 380mg and there were many days I would use less. Even now at 150mg I've never used more or even had the thought to. Maybe I'm weird?? O.O