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Losing the battle against depression

spephspeph

spephspeph

Bluelighter
Joined
Aug 14, 2011
Messages
131
Location
London
It's problem I've suffered from since I was maybe 14 or 15. I'm now 25.

Tried so much to try and beat it.

Spent weeks in talking therapies - Counselling, CBT, group therapy. I eat properly, I exercise regularly. Take Vitamin & nutrient supplements too.

I've tried numerous medications against it, none of them seem to work. Tried virtually all the SSRIs, SNRIs, tried St John's Wort, Amitryptiline, Mirtazipine, and the doc currently has me on 20mgs of Fluoxetine daily. It worked for the first two months, then I felt like crap again. Up to 40mgs, felt great for another two months, then couldn't concentrate, constantly sleepy, no appetite, sleep disturbances (sleep talking/walking).

Every day is a struggle to get out of bed and doing anything. Started with amphetamines to get a bit of motivation to do things, worked for a bit then the dealer disappeared. Have since been trying a research chemical called Methiopropamine (also MPA), seems to have exactly the same effect. On Sunday I made the decision to stop this, not knowing the long term effects of a chemical with no studies behind it.

Anyway, I don't know what to do next. I've given up on the NHS, who seem unwilling to do anything other than prescribe SSRIs and talking therapies.

I suppose their remit is limited by budgetary constraints.

Help, please :(
 
I have suffered situational depression throughout my life (dealing with it again now) so my experience will be a little different from yours, but both my late son and my sister suffer(ed) from chronic depression and SSRI's were a dismal failure for both. My son found that meditation helped immensely(but had trouble committing to it) and my sister has found relief from a daily yoga practice. I have found both of these to be helpful but, like my son, have trouble actually committing to either as much as I should even though they really help.

I almost hate to say what I am going to say next because it is going to sound so trite but here goes: develop and practice gratitude for the smallest things. (I know, I almost want to slap my own face for saying it). In the first week after my son died I felt like all of my own life-force had been sucked out of me. I was numb to the point of being dead inside. Nothing could penetrate that feeling of flatness. One day in the thick of this hideous fog I caught a whiff of some honeysuckle outside my door and instead of walking past it I turned and stuck my nose in it for a few seconds; later that day someone asked me what I was doing for myself and I said,"well, I stuck my nose in some honeysuckle today." It felt like something positive, not the smelling, but the wanting to. I decided that is what I would start doing as some way out of this numbness--make an intentional practice of just trying to feel/see/hear/say one little thing each day and then take the time to feel life's touch through that tiny little portal. These teensy moments of awareness are like rungs on a ladder for me now. I don't always write them down but I mentally take the time to honor them and though I am still depressed much of the time I feel like I am being slowly and almost imperceptibly healed by these little gifts that are, in fact, huge. I honestly hope that you don't find this annoying or worse, insulting. I offer it because it is the only thing actually helping me right now. Well, that and Bluelight!
 
chronic depression is a nightmare especially when the meds that are supposed to help do nothing...exercise helps me immensely but only for a few hours....the problem is that depressions wrecks your motivation and eventually leads to apathy..once true apathy sets in, then its danger time, hard to get out of that...my only advice is exercise as self medicating with recreational drugs will only work for so long imo..
 
could an eye opening psychedelic experience be of any help? N,N,DMT or something. MXE may be worth a try. if all else fails
 
A mood elevator like MXE is a pretty poor idea actually, as it could easily foster dependence and does nothing to treat the cause of the illness, and a heavy psychedelic like DMT while in a poor headspace would be traumatic. I have first-hand experience with that, and I can say with full confidence that taking a heavy, immersive psychedelic while in anything but a positive mindset is a recipe for absolute disaster.

speph: It sounds like you've tried a LOT, and I commend your persistence! During your talk therapy, have you pinpointed the cause of the depression? Have you been able to try EMDR as a therapy? It helped me heaps, along with CBT as maintenance, and regular exercise (including yoga, which helps the mindstate a lot). I still lapse into depression occasionally, but find that I'm getting better at both all out preventing it as well as keeping myself from falling too deep. On average, if I get into a bad funk, it'll be about a month before I'm back to baseline, which is pretty decent for someone whose suffered from major depression virtually all his life.

Other than trying EMDR, or other therapies, all I can suggest is to incorporate daily exercise into your life, and to keep working the CBT as hard as you can. The downfall of CBT, IMO, is that it does take a LOT of work, and a fair bit of time, before good results are seen. Client-centred, psychoanalysis, and other talk-only therapies aren't super effective for depression IME, but the skill-based (like CBT/DBT, mindfulness training etc) or pseudo-hypnotic (like EMDR, meditation, etc...) therapies work better, but ymmv. I normally wouldn't suggest medication until as many non-pharmaceutical means have been exhausted, but it sounds like you've already tried that path as well.
 
ColtDan said:
could an eye opening psychedelic experience be of any help? N,N,DMT or something. MXE may be worth a try. if all else fails
Click to expand...
In addition to Dave's excellent response, we generally do not suggest taking illicit drugs to treat psychological disorders. For some people it might help, but for most people with mental illness, recreational substances are going to exacerbate the problem.
Psychological disorders are caused by an imbalance in the brain's neurochemicals. Psychoactive drugs deplete serotonin and/or dopamine (and other neurotransmitters as well of course) in the brain. So even if someone has a really good/nice/healing/helpful trip, on the comedown and for the days afterwards their underlying condition is going to be worse because their neurotransmitters are even more imbalanced and need to play catch up to even get back to the state in which they were before they took the drug.
 
I feel for you, op. Is there any specific feeling/event which contributes to your depression? It might help to work through those issues, if any. On the other hand, are you depressed for lack of an overriding purpose in your life? It might be a good idea to study different religions.

I think it's a bad idea to be dependent on any drug, licit or illicit, because it's not a viable solution in the long term. How would you cope if psychoactive drugs weren't an option to begin with? What if you grow older and find that you're no longer able to take your drug of choice due to health concerns?

Neophyte, did you know that there are no labaratory tests for mental disorders, including depression? Is it wise, then, to make a blanket statement about the cause of mental illness?

If we put a self-described 'depressed' person on opiates and they are no longer depressed, is it accurate to say that he/she feels better because opiates corrected the neurochemical abnormality? How about with, say, ketamine, or zoloft?
 
No. Opiates are mood elevators, not antidepressants. Ditto most stimulants. I've self-medicated for years with caffeine-- one of the withdrawal symptoms for me is precipitation into a depressive episode.

Basic psychopharmacology: mood elevators will improve everyone's mood, while antidepressants will only improve the mood of someone who is depressed (i.e. serotonin deficient, in most clinical cases). So at first, someone who is depressed will self-medicate with an opioid and feel 'normal'. That lasts until tolerance develops, and either the same dose does not have the same effect, or the user automatically titrates the dose to maintain the effect. The latter effect leads rapidly to addiction, which we all know is not conducive to any sort of good mental health. Rather, if someone who wasn't serotonin deficient took a therapeutic dose of an SSRI, they would potentially get all kinds of side effects, but no mood elevation.

Having done the self-medication route to treat mental illness, I can say that in my experience it is generally worthless in all but the short term, and little more than justification for using recreational drugs. If, in time, research shows me to be wrong, then I'll happily eat my words. But that time has not come yet.

The long and the short of it is still that the current trend in depression research seems to be showing that non-pharmaceutical interventions (like CBT) are equally, if not more, effective than pharmaceutical interventions (like SSRIs) in most cases. That said, the treatment of mental healh is no different than the treatment of physical health: sometimes it's a bit of a crapshoot. You keep trying things until something works. Something that works for some, won't work for others. Which is frustrating as all hell, and a reason why many people become disillusioned with clinical psychology/psychiatry-- they have an unrealistic expectation that the first pill, or one of the first few, will work. Or that a pill will work at all. For some, treating mental illness is work. But nothing that's worth doing in this life is easy.

I'm not even going to touch the 'self-described' comment, as we all know the pitfalls of self-diagnosis. Right?

speph: any comments on the information presented so far? I'd like to keep this focused more on your issues specifically.
 
belfort said:
chronic depression is a nightmare especially when the meds that are supposed to help do nothing...exercise helps me immensely but only for a few hours....the problem is that depressions wrecks your motivation and eventually leads to apathy..once true apathy sets in, then its danger time, hard to get out of that...my only advice is exercise as self medicating with recreational drugs will only work for so long imo..
Click to expand...

Like any other mechanism for getting yourself high, exercise yields diminishing returns. When I was exercising the most (hard running several times a day), I was in great shape, but it took a certain amount of exercise each day just to move me beyond miserable, let alone for me to start feeling good.

In the short term, though, exercise is better than any recreational drug for dispelling the fog of despair.
 
I also didn't mention that I was diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome earlier this year. Not sure whether that makes any difference.

I've signed up to yoga classes this morning, and my boyfriend and I have discussed getting a pet.
 
buprenorphine is an opiate. It works for depression just fine and long term as well. I would hardly say it elevates everyones mood, and theres not reason not to think depression has some endorphin component. Serotonin is not the only chemical in the brain that governs mood. I would also say ssris dont really fix the serotonergic dysfunction more than they cover the symptoms. Similar to recreational drugs in a way. Then theres the fact ssris barely beat placebo for depression in all but the most severely depressed. Then theres the apathy and sexual dysfunction and mood blunting often reported with them , as well as how they often just stop working leaving one with a horrible withdrawl to deal with. Again similar to recreational drugs.
 
all you need is a friend. I have depression too, and a good day out with a friend is very therapeutic. it can change the whole game.

I got your back, anytime you need me or are feeling sad, pm me and ill give you advice based on what has worked for me.

I still haven't gotten this under control either. I have days where I am too depressed to get out of bed. so depressed that sleeping is the only way to make it go away. it has a lot to do with external things though. I normally get depressed when shitty things are happening. depression is sneaky though. I have had times where I get depressed even when things are going great.

I'm going through it too. just want you to know that people are in the same boat, and they are right there with you.

ill be waiting for a pm

night OPf bed. so depressed that sleeping is the only way to make it go away. it has a lot to do with external things though. I normally get depressed when shitty things are happening. depression is sneaky though. I have had times where I get depressed even when things are going great.

I'm going through it too. just want you to know that people are in the same boat, and they are right there with you.

ill be waiting for a pm

night OP
 
Queenscarlet: True, but unlike drugs, exercise is nothing but beneficial. In my experience, no treatment works in a vacuum, and having several things going on at once helps to keep things going. Using myself as an example: I had EMDR, use CBT techniques daily, practise yoga at least 3 times a week, meditate a couple times a week outside of yoga, and bike/do body weight resistance training. Each of these things helps (some more than others), but none would work in the long run alone. They're complimentary, and if one aspect starts flagging, as long as the others are still strong then I can prevent a full lapse into depression.

speph: Think long and think hard before getting a pet. Not that it isn't necessarily a good idea, but you're basically considering treating a mental illness by getting a life to take care of. What happens if it doesn't help? Will that be fair to the pet? I'm not trying to shoot your idea down, but animal welfare is a bit of a big thing for me, and I've seen many people get pets who have absolutely no business doing so. Please think well on it. :)
 
Well maybe this won't help but I had very bad depression along with a bad drug habbit. I abused it all. More drugs then most people and more of them. However im on suboxen now and not only does it cure me of drugs it helps me sleep it gets me going, it keeps me motivated and it keeps the depression down a lot.

I mean I still think of drugs once in awhile, I still get depressed at times but now its like normal. I feel human again. Off it (100 percent drug free) im not the same person... I don't know if im just so used to opiets that I can't function with out them but whatever the case while on it I can be a nomral person. Maybe think of something like suboxon.. it would effect your brain and mood but its not like anti depressents which never helped me and often made things worse.
 
I know how completely hopeless and crippling depression can be, and I am so sorry that you are going through this. The worst thing is that in the midst of it all, you can't see a way out - in fact you can't concieve of it even being possible for there to be a way out. It's one of the meanest tricks depression plays.

Did CBT work at all? You say you spent weeks in talking therapies - it took me a good 6 months to get the knack of CBT, and I still have to keep refreshing myself and reminding myself about it now. It is a very powerful tool, but as others have mentioned, it requires so much effort - which is unfortunate, as when you are depressed even getting out of bed feels like you are wading through treacle! It's also important to have a therapist who you trust and like and can work well with. Is it worth giving it another try, do you think? There are a couple of good online CBT websites too - one is called MoodGym and the other is Living Life to the Full, google them if you fancy a look :)

Has it been constantly bad over the last 10 years? Have there been any things that have helped at all, any periods where things weren't quite so bleak? Anything you could try?

Do you have a good support network around you? Friends, family, people you can talk to? Another of the cruel facets of depression is the way it so often isolates you, as you don't feel capable of seeing people, and you don't want to see anyone a lot of the time.. but it really does help a lot, even if you don't say much or do much - just being around others. Of course, if you are able to talk things through too, that is especially good :)

Are there any triggers or factors relating to your depression? Sometimes it is set off by something bad happening, and almost always it is perpetuated by things in our lives - social isolation, unfulfilling job, financial pressures, family struggles, all the stresses and issues of life. Are there any practical changes you could make that might help?

I agree about the NHS and funding-difficulties, it can be very hard to get help until you are right on the brink of a crisis. I hope you have a supportive GP and psychiatrist. If not, change 'em :)

(Sorry for all the questions, don't feel like you need to answer them, was just thinking things through out loud - or via typing, hehe)

Good luck, keep talking on here as much as you need. You have a fantastic attitude towards this and you are clearly trying all the things you can think of - massive congratulations, so many people just sink down into it without fighting. You are clearly a very strong person and I believe things will get better for you! <3
 
I didn't find the talking therapies particularly useful because I'm not great at talking. When I say weeks, I don't mean in one block, I mean in total time spent doing it. Every GP loves to set you up with a counsellor, because it's a cheap and effective (for most people) way of treating the patient. There was a lot of sitting in silence. I think one defining moment for me during a session was when the counsellor said "we're not here to offer advice", which left me thinking, what the hell are you here for? I find the internet great, I can communicate with people without having to talk.

As for a friend network, I don't have many, I have a few close friends. I also notice that almost all of my friends are either foreign or have a non-British heritage. I find it extremely difficult to make new friends...maybe due to my limited social abilities.

I don't find psychedelic drugs useful. MXE is weird. Last time I tried I sent a bunch of non nonsensical text messages to people (including my parents). Acid was horrible, everything looked grey and zombie-like, and I kept seeing banshees and gargoyles. 6-ABP/Benzo fury...I got lost in fabric (a club in london), very paranoid, got tunnel vision, I needed a poo and the toilet bouncer wouldn't let me use a cubicle (saying "I SUSPECT you my friend, I SUSPECT you").

I'm taking my Fluoxetine every day, it seems to have anxiolytic effects for me. The MPA gave me the energy and motivation I needed to do things.

I want to be able to smile, to want to do things, to enjoy life.

Nothing like a good rant in the morning.
 
Piracetam has some anti-depressant properties in me I find, its decent for motivation, and mood enhancement. Might be worth a try if you haven't done so yet. I've tried 3 SSRI's, Citalopram, Fluoxetine and Sertraline. I've found only Sertraline to be effective (and it is highly effective, at only 25mg/day - higher doses seem to add nothing, but increase some of the (mild) side effects - I seem to tolerate Sertraline very well). The Citalopram was virtrually ineffective, and the Fluoxetine made me hyper-anxious (I suffer from relatively high anxiety anyway). None of the herbal stuff seems to work well, though Spiralina and L-Phenalalanine appear to have some mild non-placebo effects.

Piracetam is the most effective non-prescription medication I've found for mood enhancement. However, I seem to be going through a bit of a low at the moment (recently was under a lot of stress, a depressive phase will often follow this), so have returned to taking the SSRI (50mg every 2 days, therefore 25mg/day) to prevent any worsening of this. Concurrent dosing of Piracetam with an SSRI appears to work well with me (though I doubt potentiation of the SSRI is occurring - it seems more like a synergistic effect). I dose MPA (orally) most days as well, for a motivational boost, but requires occasional breaks to arrest tolerance (which although builds quite rapidly, recedes rapidly as well given abstinence). I've not really found much of a withdrawal phenomena with MPA, but it does pay to be careful with it.

Good luck and hope you can find a solution soon.

EDIT: To add, I've never found counselling to be effective - sitting, chatting to a psychotherapist is a nightmare (probable ADD - can't wait to get out of the room) - I at least like to be walking and chatting to a councellor - helps me open up a lot more.

EDIT2: TMI, plus probably not accurate. Redacted.
 
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There’s some great advice here and some genuinely helpful info as usual.

Personally speaking I have suffered from depression on and off over the years, as has my mother so it could be genetic (for this reason I keep substance use to a bare minimum nowadays).

There is no right or wrong answer of the best way to tackle it, after all it’s very personal and everyone is different.
I am however of the opinion that using substances to fight off depression is a REALLY bad idea on the long term and only puts a sticking plaster over the problem. You’re only storing it up for a later date instead of dealing with it head on. I don’t even agree with the prescription of anti-depressants in 90% of cases. I think it’s just a less hassle, cheaper alternative over providing quality counselling to try and reach the source of the depression. Doctor’s want patients in and out ASAP.

Artificially altering your mood just isn't a sustainable way to live and it will catch up with you one day. Look into meditation and positive mantras, inspirational quotes from people who have been there and come out the other side. Learn to understand and control your own mind and eventually you'll be able to understand and categorise how you feel.

All I can say is to keep up the healthy diet and exercise, limit your mood altering substance abuse and alcohol intake (any toxins are going to cause a drop in mood).
You need to live as clean as possible, surround yourself with people who care about you and focus on the things you want most from life. At some point I guarantee you will turn a corner and rediscover an enthusiasm for life.
I always think that we should all aim to live our lives on as level par as possible. If you go too high, it will be followed by an equally big downer at some point.
If you’re prone to depression you can’t afford to take chances and if I was you I’d be making every effort to stop drug use completely if you’re feeling as bad as you say.

Good luck and as others have said, if you need to send a PM I’m always around.
 
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