PcChip said:
I was coming off of 100mg per day habit of Hydrocodone for 2-3 months, I'd call that "medium" or so I suppose
First let me say: comparing habits is about the dumbest thing you can do, worse than comparing dicks and a lot less fun than a literal pissing contest. That said, that is a very small habit, not a medium one. This is not an insult to your manhood, so don't get all bitchy. Doctors say to take it every four hours, and an addict would be taking it at least that often, meaning approx 4-5 times a day. Lots of non-tolerant high-seekers easily take 10-30mg of hydrocodone (maybe more) for recreational purposes.
Sounds to me you had little, if anything at all, of a habit over what I would call a baseline addiction. Baseline addiction being defined as an addiction acquired using close to a standard recreational dose for a period long enough to become addicted, but not long enough (or with the dosing patterns) to ramp up either dosage tolerance (need more to get same effects) or time tolerance (the tolerant-adjusted dose provides shorter effects than originally). Furthermore, medium- to long-term addicts and researchers agree that the length of addiction is more important than how high of a dose, though that isn't particularly relevant in regards to loperamide dosages.
I often think of opiate tolerance in terms of a multiplier- lots of opiate addicts are taking 2x, 5x, 10x or maybe even more- researchers have documented folks using as high has
100 times the amount of heroin in a day than they did when they began at the baseline addiction. My tolerance multiplier when I was last using opiate was 6x, that is, I originally was using a quarter cup of pod grounds daily when I started, but before I quit it was at a cup and a half of grounds, 6 times the dose, to get to the same place. For a short period it was as high as 12x, but for the last 5 years of my 10 year addiction it was 10x (two cups of grounds made into tea). These numbers represent a single dose, but only taken every 24 hours.
I wanted to pop in to say that loperamide does indeed kinda sorta get you high. However, I want to reiterate the point already made: it's pretty dumb to take enough loperamide with the intent to get high, whether tolerant to opiates or not, though sometimes getting slightly buzzed is a side effect of maintenance.
However, loperamide is a veritable wonder drug when it comes to maintenance and withdrawal. It is a flexible drug, and can be used either between bouts of regular addiction with another opiate, it can be used to bring down that tolerance to make using cheaper, it can be used for as a long term replacement for maintenance *and* as a drug to taper with. A pharmacist friend of a friend has called it the "poor man's methadone." It's cheaper, more accessible (doesn't require a clinic or Rx), and has a TON less abuse potential than methadone. Because of the scored 2mg pills it is a TON easier to taper down as fast or slow as you want from the original maintenance dose, so much easier than trying to taper down on something like poppy pods or heroin. A dose lasts about 24 hours for me, but while I had a high dose tolerance, I had a small time tolerance to the pods- I still only used once a day, and was totally high and unsick for 24 hours- if you're using pods (for instance) twice a day, ever day, you will probably need to dose loperamide twice a day as well.
I am on an 80 mg (40 pills) daily dose of loperamide, which has been very slowly tapered down with no WDs or any discomfort from 96 mg (48 pills) a day. I've gone on loperamide dozens of times over 10 years, most times only for a couple weeks. Even when I was still using, I'd switch to maintaining on loperamide if I was going to be on vacation for more than 2-3 days, because using 2 cups of grounds made into tea each day isn't that much work per se, but it's a lot of work to keep it from being obvious to everyone.
When going from use to maintenence, I used the the process outlined below.
PLEASE NOTE these dosages are for someone with a high, long-term tolerance. I am not a doctor and I am not giving medical advise. You can use the dose multiplier idea to find the right dose, but start lower than what the math would tell you to do.
1. At the point where you're starting the smallest WD symptoms, where you would usually re-dose your usual drug, take the loperamide. For me, when I was using a cup (4x my original dose) or a cup and a half (6x) of grounds I'd take 96 mg.
2. Repeat the following for 2 days, taking the dose 24 hours after the first dose, and from now on dosing at that time daily. These 2 days aren't fun, but they aren't hell. No shits, but bumping stuff hurts, I get an upper backache, I feel cold, and a few other smaller WD symptoms, but nothing like where you'd be after 2-3 days of a real pod WD. I could sleep fine, but usually only for 6 hours. It wasn't like the usual opiate WD sleeping problems- I'd wake up awake and pretty refreshed, but it's a bit jarring in a way to go from sleeping 8-12 hours a night (opiates, yea) to 6 at first.
You've get a lot of anxious energy during this adjustment phase. In these 2-3 days I found that Xanax or Valium worked wonders for the anxiety and mental symptoms. I personally don't see any recreational value to benzos and had no problem using them to control WD symptoms for a couple of days and stopping, but people who are prone to benzo abuse might want to avoid it. Kava kava works too, but avoid valerian, it just makes you feel shittier somehow during this phase. I usually also take ibruprofen during this phase because I get an upper backache that the IB removes, and the IB also helps with the opiate bump-pain during this adjustment phase.
I think this adjustment phase of very light WD symptoms is why a lot of people with opiate addiction assume loperamide doesn't work. They are using super low doses compared to their tolerance level- if you need 100mg of oxycodone (at once, not an OC) to get high taking 2-10mg loperamide isn't going to help you any more than 5-10 mg of oxycodone will, while those doses are completely effective for non-tolerant folks. Another note for skeptics- this 2-3 day adjustment phase is not just completing a WD. Even a couple of months into a loperamide maintenance/taper if one has to wait a few hours past the time where they'd usually take their loperamide dose WD symptoms start. Taking loperamide eliminates the oncoming WDs. Similarily, taking another opiate in the appropriate dose as the WDs come on of someone who is only on loperamide also elimates WD symptoms. The WD symptoms of loperamide use are the same as any other opiate. One note along these lines- abruptly stopping loperamide if you are maintaining on a dose like this is just as bad as an idea as stopping methadone randomly. Loperamide WD is more like methadone WD than a heroin WD because of the longer time of effect. The bulk of a heroin WD lasts like 3 days, while the bulk of a methadone or loperamide WD lasts more like 10-20 days and can be just as intense. So, if you get off something else using loperamide, don't assume you've been "cured" of your addiction and just stop- taper down. Thanks to the low dose of each pill tapering is easy as it gets.
3. On the third day, I'd take 48 mg (24 pills) and see how well it worked. If it didn't work well, I'd take another 48 mg. The adjustment phase lasted 2 days for me at first, but over the years it became longer, 3 and sometimes 4 days where I'd be taking the 96 mg dose, and then cut it.
If the 48 mg (24 pills) worked, I would maintain on that indefinately until resupply, or start tapering from there. I'm not sure why it works that way- I've got some theories about the BBB learning to allow it in, or a build up that saturates the reverse pumps, etc. Loperamide *does* cross the BBB, it just gets pumped back out. Folks have put forward quercetin as a means to saturate the pumps that push loperamide back out through the BBB (
more info on this), but I can tell you that it doesn't work any batter than loperamide by itself.
One note is that if you are already a day into WDs, the loperamide worked immediately for me, no adjustment phase required. That is, I not only had no shits, but I also was completely free of WDs, feeling content but not high. If you can suffer through a day of full on, long term addiction WDs easily, I'd do so instead of taking the double dose for the first few days, it's probably better for you in a handful of ways.
Up until I quit using opiates recreationally, most of my loperamide maint periods were a couple of weeks. I got into the habit of having a loperamide maint week every 8 weeks or so to keep my tolerance down. Early on, going on loperamide for a few days cut my tolerance in half and brought back the euphoria of the honeymoon period, but toward the end of my addiction it didn't cut the tolerance all that much, but it did continue (though not as effectively) bringing back the euphoria. It was also very useful for cutting time tolerance, and the effectiveness to produce that never was diminished. That is, if I started to depend upon 2 doses a day, which means I didn't take 2 for "fun" on Fridays, but rather the 10 AM dose wore off and I was getting sick at 6 PM, requiring redose or WDs. After I started using loperamide to maintain, I've never had to dose on the tea more than once a day because I was back to being high all day long off of one dose.
Also, when I'm maintaining I still shit. Back in the day I would shit every morning before taking my loperamide dose. These days I shit whenever I need to, even if the loperamide is going full strength. I believe my ENS has a different level of tolerance to loperamide than my CNS, because only a portion of the loperamide actually makes it into my brain, but all of it is going wild on the opiate receptors in my GI tract. I shit like a normal person, once or twice a day. I still tend to take a dump in the morning before dose, but it is common for me to take on in the afternoon, even while the slight loperamide buzz is still felt and is still working. I don't ever get the runs though, even after eating/drinking something that might otherwise give me or a non-tolerant person some trouble.
There are a few other observations I've made over the years that I'll relate, but of which I never consistently tested for enough to make a scientific hypothesis about.
1. Avoid taking loperamide as a potentiator or otherwise with your usual opiate. To decrease the total amount of time I spent in the adjustment phase (which is kinda shitty, but by no means anywhere near how you feel during WD) I tried phasing in loperamide. I did this for a few times, and while the transition from morphine+loperamide to just loperamide was easier, the total usefulness of the loperamide was diminished a TON. That is, when using morphine one day and using loperamide the next I'd have a few shitty days but then be like a normal person. But when I did a mixed dose for a couple days to a week before switching to only loperamide I started off on the first day with no morphine feeling OK compared to a first day off as I outlined above, but it took A LOT longer to get to the point where I had no WD symptoms and the slight loperamide buzz, usually 10-14 days.
Furthermore, a mixed loperamide+other opiate daily regimen greatly increases your ENS (GI tract) tolerance to opiates. When I mixed them with the intent to transition to loperamide, but maybe ran out of loperamide and took just a full dose of morphine (e.g. enough to get my high) I often got the runs. Who knew, the shits on morphine? In a way this is good and bad, depending on your intention. For someone who is actually going to quit using opiates for fun it isn't a bad thing- like I said, I'm able to pass a BM even on loperamide, but in the couple of times I've run into something and used it instead of the loperamide I got diahrea a couple of times. If you are planning on staying a 'real' opiate addict, I'd avoid mixing them.
2. I've noticed too that ramping up (taking part of the dose every 15 minutes) has worked well. It's how I first noticed that it worked, actually. Doing so might help especially in the first 2-3 days in the program I outlined above, though I never conclusively determine if it did or not. I take my dose all at once and it is effective, the slight buzz included.
Side Effects: These days, I don't have any sort of side effects from the long term loperamide maintenance. I've had blood work done and everything is still healthy. Not that there might not be other long term side effects, but as with any medication it's good only to use them as long as you need it- if you are at the point where you can taper off rather than just maintain, do it. If you feel you will always need
something, it might be worth your while to look into methadone just in case.
However, earlier on I did have a side effect on some of the loperamide cycles I went on, though not every time- an empty feeling in the pit of my stomach. Eating didn't resolve this. For me, it went away every time after a few days of maintenance. I never had any other sort of cramps or pain, twisting or otherwise.
The buzz? In case anyone is still wondering, the 'buzz' form loperamide is very opiate like, but way more in my head than in my body. It has a more stimulant-feeling effect than any other opiate I've used does, though my heart rate and blood pressure doesn't go up. That said, if I am tired as the dose comes off and doze off I can often fall sleep for a few hours in a nice opiated way, rather than a more usual .5-1 hour naps I would take. Sometimes when I've started a loperamide cycle I might only sleep 6 hours a night, but if daily doses are timed in a way such that I need to take it in the middle of sleep (like at 2 AM, long story), I often can't sleep well before that time, but when I take it and it comes on sleep comes back very, very easily. That said, during the day I don't feel sedated and lazy in the way that morphine or methadone makes me feel.
In conclusion...
Sorry about the long post, but I'd hate to see some kids hard up for a high taking a TON of loperamide, and either achieving that high but fucking up their digestive systems in the process. If you are someone without a signifigant tolerance and take a massive you will get constipated, maybe for 1-4 days. But taking a single huge dose
will not constipate you for weeks, months, or years. You will likely get stomache cramps, but other than that you'll probably be fine, but like I said, it really isn't worth it. Abusing loperamide is the best way to get it taken off the shelves, and those of us who are using it as a methadone-like maint drug will be screwed. Do us all a favor and buy some kratom or something.
The other reason for this long post is that just as bad would be for folks with opiate addiction to miss out on one of the best ways to manage your addiction and remove it from your life when you get to that point. If it weren't for loperamide I wouldn't be off the real opiates like I am now.
