Looking for Ego-Death Aftermath Experiences - especially "existentially challenging ones"

[Ruse]

Hello all,

A Dark Night of the Soul is something that can happen to dedicated meditators, near-death experiencers, and psychonauts who have seen their ego dissolve. While the experience itself can be blissful, liberating, and insightful, a tripper always returns to their old life, old friends, and old everything else. Sooner or later, everyone has heard your tales, and the time comes to re-engage with your life, but for some people, this can be difficult.

How do you integrate something that is so powerful and insightful? How do you go back after seeing the ephemerality of the things you used to believe in? How can you start living in accordance with your new insights?

For some, these and other questions lead to profound states of disenchantment, where it is hard to make any moves at all. It can be a miserable state of affairs, where you can transition from deep despair to strong optimism and back again, in the blink of an eye. Relationships, jobs, living situations - they can all suffer irreparable damage.

For a book I'm writing, where these states are described and a prescription of sorts is provided as to how to move from disenchantment to re-enchantment, I'm looking for people's first-hand experiences with these states of disenchantment. Please don't email me your biography - a few paragraphs will suffice about how it happened for you, what happened exactly, and where you are now.

You can email me here, or send me a PM.

Thanks for reading - and mods, if this is in the wrong spot, mea culpa and please help out?

 

[Chris Timothy]

If people reply to your thread, it'll stay in sight longer.. not sure why you wouldn't want that?

To answer your question: in order to stay clear of disenchantment I exactly avoided going back to the same old friends and family, and figured out how to survive on a low budget, so I could avoid vanilla employment. Not many people are crazy enough to put their social counter on zero and live like an internet bum for a couple of years, but for me it happened to work. New friends I've found through a random mushroom group ceremony, and also here on bluelight. (Even almost got a job position related to psychedelics.. but then I got ungracefully wasted once too often.. )

Find the Others, y'know?

 

[Ruse]

Thanks for your reply. Yes, I do welcome replies to this thread also. It's just that these stories can often be personal, vulnerable, or private, so I wanted to emphasize that private replies were explicitly welcomed.

Would you say you're happy with the balance you've been able to strike in your life so far? All told, at this moment, how do you look back on your experience? I'm not looking for any final judgments, but taking the perspective that life is a series of snapshots, what does that snapshot look like for you?

 

[Chris Timothy]

Oh whenever I pull my head out of cloud nine I still treat it as work in progress, and still search for ever more balance. And it's human to have a little regret about certain snapshots no matter what.

But from another point of view, if I hadn't thought a path to be optimal, I wouldn't have taken it.

 

[Ruse]

Could you share a little more? Perhaps give an account of what you took and what your experience was like? How you integrated the experience immediately afterwards, were there any immediate big decisions or was there a period of unsuccessful attempts at reintegration in your "old" life? Did you find any practices that kept you sane, or that allowed you to revisit the trip experience from time to time? How much time has elapsed? Etc. Anything you might consider relevant...

Thanks!

 

[G_Chem]

In my opinion a psychonaut shouldn’t often push themselves to experiences that are too difficult to integrate, if ever...

If one takes their time with these drugs, slowly working up to that peak experience, by the time they have it the integration will be seamless and less traumatic than is often the case.

I’m not a believer of the “dive right in” mentality and feel it does more harm than good.

Idk maybe I’m just lucky because for me integration, while sometimes taking weeks/months after an experience, is never a process where I feel stuck or lost. Because I’ve worked hard to build strong foundations with the medicines I use..

For instance from my first DMT experience to the time I actually blasted off was 2 years, I had probably 5 experiences within the time before finally going for it. When I finally went for it, it was the most peaceful smooth drift off to that realm with zero anxiety or fear. Even to this day I seem to have a relationship with DMT that isn’t like others, it’s very kind and gentle to me compared to how it seems to treat others.

I think these problems also arise when someone is tripping too often and allowing a backlog of integration to essentially build up.

But my biggest motto has always been this.. What’s the point of an experience if it can’t be integrated and useful in this reality? So many people eat LSD like crazy and get these manic delusions that what they are spouting is so prophetic and wise when it’s givberish, IMO we must try our hardest to avoid that state and straddle the line where we go just far enough to get new perspective but not too far where that perspective isn’t even possible for the human mind in its sober state to utilize.

-GC

 

[Ruse]

Whereas I may personally resonate with your opinion, I also find it reductionist and, in the present context, unhelpful.

You presuppose that "pushing themselves", or a lack of caution, is the reason why psychonauts get mired in existential crises, and are of the opinion that if they would only pace themselves, they might have an easier time of it. This is a reductionist way of viewing the subject, and for instance completely ignores the spiritual harmonics* that the use of psychedelics taps into, and that can lead someone to question everything they once held dear. This may not be as relevant for you personally, but to make blanket statements as you do in your opinionated post, really just highlights your ignorance on this dimension.

Which brings me to the unhelpful part of your opinion. The context is a harm-reduction forum, that is granted. But in this particular post, no-one is asking for advice on dosage, build-up, pacing, tolerance, or even integration. Instead, the title and body of the OP, and of the subsequent exchanges make it perfectly clear that I'm expressly looking for reports of people's experiences with psychedelics-induced existential disenchantment. Your response can be read as a judgment of these kinds of experiences, which you admit to never actually having had. Your reductionist approach further communicates that people who are or have been experiencing such a state are basically to blame for their predicament. It's like blaming a random person's obesity on that person, for "eating too much." It's blaming the victim.

Now, I'm sure you didn't mean to imply all this, and were merely prompted to give your personal take on the matter. No hard feelings here, I would just be remiss if I didn't point out that your opinionated post may have just kept someone from responding with their relevant experience, because they felt subtly judged by (the content of )you(r post).

* By "spiritual harmonics," I am referring to the circumstance that a psychedelic experience can occasion mystical experiences that so overwhelm the person undergoing them, that they are unable to immediately and fully integrate them. My book will argue that these experiences, and the disenchantment issuing from it, are common parts of spiritual development, and are thus opportunities to take seriously.

 

[G_Chem]

If one were to feel “subtly judged” by my opinion I can only assume it’s a reflection of their own insecurities. Nowhere in my post do I come across as judgemental and by that mentality a thread that continued to pander to your ideology would have the opposite effect of subtly judging folks like me.

Psychedelics should make you question reality, they should push boundaries but if you are constantly finding yourself stuck or unable to integrate then yes you need to re-evaluate how you are using them. Again my opinion, which is what I thought you wanted?

All that said, I’ve facilitated experiences for others for many years, I have quite a lot of experience providing for others as well as helping others reintegrate. As a facilitator for at least 15yrs I’d like to think I’ve a bit of a grasp on these medicines and how to use them.

But like any practitioner, every one has a different perspective and methodology. I just shared mine. I apologize that I offended you so and appreciate the “not so subtle judgement” in return..

Edit- My methodology allowed a lady this past summer with a background of trauma and rape, that had a hard time originally with psychedelics be able to slowly dive in and have the ability to process her emotions on the way.

Dropping someone into the deep end can either go extraordinarily good or horribly bad.. Yea you can change a persons view overnight but in my opinion the risks are too high when you can get better results in a safer manner by going slow.

Like any healthy habit, it’s better to make small changes over time instead of trying to go big all at once. Ex, Fad diets vs small dietary changes.

Edit 2- As I think more I feel we are likely using psychedelics for two different reasons as well. Hence the difference in approaches.

-GC

 

[Ruse]

Edit 2- As I think more I feel we are likely using psychedelics for two different reasons as well. Hence the difference in approaches.

I was thinking the same thing. Not just that, but it may not always be clear where a tripper ends up. Even if they and the support system around them are aiming for let's say the psychologically insightful, or the trauma processing territory, they might still find themselves in the realm of ego-death, where all they realistically can do is surrender.

Nevertheless, if no-one ever told you that profound insights into the nature of existence can happen, and you suddenly do end up there, chances are that a certain percentage of people experience re-entry difficulties. This isn't just theoretical, if you spend any time on the psychedelics subreddit, you can find plenty of evidence of this stuff happening in real-time.

There are indeed parallels to be drawn between this experience and the stages of the various mystical paths, and also with the near-death experience. They of course can not be easily equated, as there is a definite difference in terms of agency that needs to be taken into account. NDErs have no say in the matter, weren't looking for it, and generally lack a frame of reference for understanding it. Mystics OTOH tend to be on the lookout for exactly this experience. Trippers may fall somewhere in the middle of the spectrum, with some explicitly (and sometimes naively) looking for ego-death, and others caught completely unawares.

Compare it with a panic attack, brought on by quick and shallow breathing. If you do it on purpose, as in holotropic breathwork, it can catapult you into holotropic states, whereas if it happens to you against your wishes, well... you might feel like you're actually dying.

Anyway, the book I'm writing is meant to give people a heads-up about the possibility of this happening, to reassure someone experiencing this that they are okay, and to give them practical ways they can use to move on from this.

If there is anyone out there who has had, or is currently in, such an experience and would like to share it, please feel free to send me your story, as it can only improve the book.

 

[Chris Timothy]

He's probably just shitting on my prophet act. And in part rightfully so, often I've come here having taken too much and it all devolves into givberish.. then again, if it wouldn't have worked every so often I wouldn't have kept this nick for over eight years.

Could you share a little more? Perhaps give an account of what you took and what your experience was like? How you integrated the experience immediately afterwards, were there any immediate big decisions or was there a period of unsuccessful attempts at reintegration in your "old" life? Did you find any practices that kept you sane, or that allowed you to revisit the trip experience from time to time? How much time has elapsed? Etc. Anything you might consider relevant...

Thanks!

In a way I've dedicated my life to mind expansion, so including everything that's relevant would turn you into my autobiographer, heh. Probably should write my own book one day.. just not sure whether people still like to read books.

To answer one question: I like the intellectual approach to integration, and with time and Internet as basically my only resources I've been able to pull insights from as far and wide as I pleased. Lots of juicy science, and indeed, lots of clever mystics throughout history. I'm at the point now that I can trip and experience teleportation and only be briefly upset by that. But it's all a bit of a red herring - that's where @G_Chem seems to missing the ball - because I've found it far more difficult to integrate sober experiences than transcendental ones. Yet who would argue in general against the spirit of adventure? When does that become mere anxiety? At what point gives it away the inability to value purposelessness because it can't be utilized for survival? The trainwrecks are most visible here on bluelight, but let's not forget all the blockheaded folks outside, especially those in positions of power, who could do with some more turning on / tuning in if we want to still have a global civilization at the end of the century.

 

[Meth novice 79]

I don’t know that I understand exactly what you are looking for but here’s my best response given what I took from your post.

Almost 4 years ago I was sleeping in my bed with my perfectly healthy 10 year old daughter. She has 2 adult siblings, they also were of perfect health and if I’m honest, we had a reasonably stable, if not a little poor, life style.
I’m a single Mum of 5 years, work full time, my older kids are successful in their careers and my life was somewhat how I imagined it would turn out.
But I wasn’t very grateful.
My married had ended and I was pretty bitter about it.

At about 6am I woke with a start.
My bed was shaking uncontrollably.
It took me a couple minutes to gather my thoughts and switch a light on and there to my left was my baby.
She was completely blue in the face, her eyes open but blankly staring and her body, contorted in unnatural ways was jolting repeatedly.
Then she stopped. Not just seizing. Everything.
Even the tiny gasp she had been giving during the seizure was gone.
My son called an ambulance and I sat with her head lay in my arms thinking she had died.
Her pulse was faint and she was non responsive.

And it was like my life flashed before my eyes.
Everything that meant so much to me that night before I went to sleep was gone.
My OCD about stupid shit like a clean house and a specific routine was gone.
I didn’t care what impression I made on others anymore.
Pretty much NOTHING was important to me any longer.

I lost my child that day.
She’s still alive of course. But she grew up over night
She’s had to accept that she has an incurable brain disorder. She will never drive a car, join the navy (lol yes this was a dream of hers) her future is unknown
We don’t know how long it will take, but her epilepsy is degenerative. Slowly it will take her speech, motor control, ability to read and write and then she will pass away young.

So we live EVERY SINGLE MOMENT LIKE ITS OUR LAST.
I never say no I’m too tired anymore
I never want to miss a single experience with her!
It was a massive spiritual awakening for me.

Funny enough, she didn’t think that was enough.
Last year she swallowed 90 of her epilepsy pills in an attempt to overdose.
Over a boy!
That time landed her in a coma in icu in life support for 5 days.
It showed me how strong I am.
Her father didn’t bother to show up.
My family had better things to do that come see her.
It was just me, my kids and my sister by her bed for 5 days til she woke.
No one thought she would wake up she had taken so much they’d anticipated brain damage at the least.
But nope, she woke up and cried. She cried because we were brushing her hair she hates having her hair brushed
She’s a bit of a miracle this one.
And a hell of a handful

But she showed me the meaning of life

 

[Meth novice 79]

I just don’t believe that drugs offer enlightenment lol
That’s an excuse users make to justify having fun.

Maybe it’s hallucinogens. And I’m missing something.

Heroin was great fun. Probably the best buzz of my life. But I didn’t get enlightened.
It dumbed me down so much I was amused by dr Phil and thought my cheese sandwich was a gourmet meal .

 

[Ruse]

I don’t know that I understand exactly what you are looking for but here’s my best response given what I took from your post.

Thank you for this. As a father, I can only imagine what you must have been going through for the past four years. Outside looking in, having a child almost die due to a chronic degenerative disease, and then due to an attempted suicide, seems close to a worst case scenario. Right now, even though I do not know you, you and your daughter are in my heart.

It's crazy how life can conspire to rearrange your priorities. At least, that's what I'm reading in your post. Not sweating the little stuff anymore, no longer caring about what others might think. I think this fluency in responding to circumstances is one of the ways in which evolution has bred resilience into us, enhancing our ability for survival.

That said, I guess what I'm looking for is reports of people rejecting survival paradigms, because they have viscerally experienced that existence is much more than just the body, or than what they habitually think of as "themselves." Taking psychedelics can lead to the dissolution of the ego, and even to the very real experience of the body dying, and yet somehow, there is something beyond. That something beyond tends to feel enormously liberated, blissful, and expansive. Ineffable, even.

But then, they come down, and find that being once again embodied, and immersed in "character armour," as Wilhelm Reich used to call our personality, can feel like a stifling straightjacket. They have experienced full liberation, and now have no way of returning to that state. Moreover, much of what they believed was true or desired has shown itself to be immaterial and vapid. How to integrate this experience? How to live once again a "normal life?" And if you choose not to go back to your old ways, what then?

This inability to choose, or to find a new path eventually leads to disenchantment, or worse, indifference. People can spend months, years, even decades here, not knowing what is the matter with them, periodically attempting and often failing to recreate the conditions that have allowed them to experience this liberation, misliving in the interim.

 

[Meth novice 79]

Ye

Thank you for this. As a father, I can only imagine what you must have been going through for the past four years. Outside looking in, having a child almost die due to a chronic degenerative disease, and then due to an attempted suicide, seems close to a worst case scenario. Right now, even though I do not know you, you and your daughter are in my heart.

It's crazy how life can conspire to rearrange your priorities. At least, that's what I'm reading in your post. Not sweating the little stuff anymore, no longer caring about what others might think. I think this fluency in responding to circumstances is one of the ways in which evolution has bred resilience into us, enhancing our ability for survival.

That said, I guess what I'm looking for is reports of people rejecting survival paradigms, because they have viscerally experienced that existence is much more than just the body, or than what they habitually think of as "themselves." Taking psychedelics can lead to the dissolution of the ego, and even to the very real experience of the body dying, and yet somehow, there is something beyond. That something beyond tends to feel enormously liberated, blissful, and expansive. Ineffable, even.

But then, they come down, and find that being once again embodied, and immersed in "character armour," as Wilhelm Reich used to call our personality, can feel like a stifling straightjacket. They have experienced full liberation, and now have no way of returning to that state. Moreover, much of what they believed was true or desired has shown itself to be immaterial and vapid. How to integrate this experience? How to live once again a "normal life?" And if you choose not to go back to your old ways, what then?

This inability to choose, or to find a new path eventually leads to disenchantment, or worse, indifference. People can spend months, years, even decades here, not knowing what is the matter with them, periodically attempting and often failing to recreate the conditions that have allowed them to experience this liberation, misliving in the interim.

Yeah I did think that’s where you were headed, and a few months ago I might have still had the glossed over view that drugs can be life changing.
I remember the early days of my meth use. When I could still think clearly on the stuff, but from a less emotional personal POV. It definitely gave me the ability to see things from a better perspective. But of course it didn’t last. Eventually I was just as addled on the stuff as everyone else lol

And I’m yet to try hallucinogens.
Maybe one day I’ll join all you temporarily enlightened souls lol

And thank you, yes it’s been a trying time, but way more of a life changing moment than any drug

 

[Chris Timothy]

Thank you for this. As a father, I can only imagine what you must have been going through for the past four years. Outside looking in, having a child almost die due to a chronic degenerative disease, and then due to an attempted suicide, seems close to a worst case scenario. Right now, even though I do not know you, you and your daughter are in my heart.

It's crazy how life can conspire to rearrange your priorities. At least, that's what I'm reading in your post. Not sweating the little stuff anymore, no longer caring about what others might think. I think this fluency in responding to circumstances is one of the ways in which evolution has bred resilience into us, enhancing our ability for survival.

That said, I guess what I'm looking for is reports of people rejecting survival paradigms, because they have viscerally experienced that existence is much more than just the body, or than what they habitually think of as "themselves." Taking psychedelics can lead to the dissolution of the ego, and even to the very real experience of the body dying, and yet somehow, there is something beyond. That something beyond tends to feel enormously liberated, blissful, and expansive. Ineffable, even.

But then, they come down, and find that being once again embodied, and immersed in "character armour," as Wilhelm Reich used to call our personality, can feel like a stifling straightjacket. They have experienced full liberation, and now have no way of returning to that state. Moreover, much of what they believed was true or desired has shown itself to be immaterial and vapid. How to integrate this experience? How to live once again a "normal life?" And if you choose not to go back to your old ways, what then?

This inability to choose, or to find a new path eventually leads to disenchantment, or worse, indifference. People can spend months, years, even decades here, not knowing what is the matter with them, periodically attempting and often failing to recreate the conditions that have allowed them to experience this liberation, misliving in the interim.

I've learned this only after I burned everything down so to speak, but there are less drastic techniques for carrying around psychedelic insights, for importing them into daily drudgery. And it's a bit of a mental juggle because the nature of a job of course calls for taking it seriously. But it's really important to, at the same time, really not give a bloody hoot. Weirdly enough this opens up a level where a flow state happens, where any activity, even menial labor, can be basically pleasant, as it's not solely connected anymore to getting something external out of it. By expressing aspects of the psychedelic experience this way you can carry it around wherever you go. It's not about solving that paradox, it's about embodying it.

"The more you realize you are nothing, the more you'll amount to something," a wise man once said.

 

[Chris Timothy]

@Meth novice 79
Sorry to hear about your story. Only recently I randomly met someone online who had lost her two children. When she found out I was tripping, she thematically called herself an old witch. Psychedelics do the exact opposite of heroin, I was devastated by being able to feel the depths of her suffering.. I shut down emotionally during the conversation to remain sane, but after coming down I felt like screaming and puking at the same time. Probably the closest I'll ever get to understanding getting hit in one's most vulnerable place, one's offspring.

 

[Meth novice 79]

@Meth novice 79
Sorry to hear about your story. Only recently I randomly met someone online who had lost her two children. When she found out I was tripping, she thematically called herself an old witch. Psychedelics do the exact opposite of heroin, I was devastated by being able to feel the depths of her suffering.. I shut down emotionally during the conversation to remain sane, but after coming down I felt like screaming and puking at the same time. Probably the closest I'll ever get to understanding getting hit in one's most vulnerable place, one's offspring.

That poor woman.
There’s just nothing imaginable that could even come close is there?
We expect to lose our parents in our lifetime, that’s acceptable.
But our children a MEANT to outlive us!

I honestly don’t think I’d be able to survive.
I definitely see myself checking out once my youngest goes.

And what a convo to get into when you are tripping, lucky you could check out on the convo.

One of my highschool mates sons committed suicide a couple weeks ago.
He was just 18.
I think of all the ways to lose a baby, suicide is the hardest.
You feel like you’ve failed to protect them. Your ultimate role in life as a woman is a mother, and you couldn’t save them.
Unimaginable.

 

[Ruse]

I've learned this only after I burned everything down so to speak, but there are less drastic techniques for carrying around psychedelic insights, for importing them into daily drudgery. And it's a bit of a mental juggle because the nature of a job of course calls for taking it seriously. But it's really important to, at the same time, really not give a bloody hoot. Weirdly enough this opens up a level where a flow state happens, where any activity, even menial labor, can be basically pleasant, as it's not solely connected anymore to getting something external out of it. By expressing aspects of the psychedelic experience this way you can carry it around wherever you go. It's not about solving that paradox, it's about embodying it.

"The more you realize you are nothing, the more you'll amount to something," a wise man once said.

Yes, thank you. Letting go of outcomes can be a profound way out of existential despair, and into flow states where everything becomes naturally imbued with meaning. And quite apart from the activities of thought, which we might otherwise rely on to give meaning. Letting go of outcomes in this way runs counter to our basic obsession with causality, which to be honest has given us a lot, but has also precipitated so much suffering. Which I realize is a causal statement, and thereby unintentionally illustrates the limits of language when discussing these interesting dimensions of human experience. blablabla...

The quote you mentioned is perfectly on point, which reminds me of one by Ajahn Chah, a Thai meditation master: "If you let go a little, you get a little happiness. Let go a lot, and you'll get a lot of happiness. Letting go completely leads to complete peace."

But then of course, venerable Chah did not have kids...

 

[Ruse]

Yeah I did think that’s where you were headed, and a few months ago I might have still had the glossed over view that drugs can be life changing.
I remember the early days of my meth use. When I could still think clearly on the stuff, but from a less emotional personal POV. It definitely gave me the ability to see things from a better perspective. But of course it didn’t last. Eventually I was just as addled on the stuff as everyone else lol

And I’m yet to try hallucinogens.
Maybe one day I’ll join all you temporarily enlightened souls lol

And thank you, yes it’s been a trying time, but way more of a life changing moment than any drug

Yeah stimulants can be treacherous. They give you exactly that which you're looking for, energetic clarity without the emotional dimension that can be overwhelming. But taking them for prolonged periodes can be like being in a relationship with a borderline narcissist. After the honeymoon period, they turn into the spouse from hell, demanding, withholding, and impervious to logic to the point of paranoia.

Psychedelics are different though. Unpredictable, scary, and at times destabilizing. But also insightful, non-addictive, and liberating.

While I'm hardly in the habit of recommending drug use to anyone, and this may be rather forward of a random person on some random internet forum, perhaps microdosing might be something you could try. Microdosing psychedelics - or some other intervention, such as yoga and/or mindfulness meditation - can show you the subtle ways in which you are not facing your pain, and suggest ways to more skillfully work with it.

To be sure, no drug can alter the circumstances in which you find yourself, but it seems like you're realizing that stimulants may put you deeper into the hole you were trying to dig yourself out of. Finding a practice that better aligns with your innate desire for health may be just the thing. Which doesn't magically solve anything, but makes it easier to find a better way to cope.

 

[Meth novice 79]

Yeah stimulants can be treacherous. They give you exactly that which you're looking for, energetic clarity without the emotional dimension that can be overwhelming. But taking them for prolonged periodes can be like being in a relationship with a borderline narcissist. After the honeymoon period, they turn into the spouse from hell, demanding, withholding, and impervious to logic to the point of paranoia.

Psychedelics are different though. Unpredictable, scary, and at times destabilizing. But also insightful, non-addictive, and liberating.

While I'm hardly in the habit of recommending drug use to anyone, and this may be rather forward of a random person on some random internet forum, perhaps microdosing might be something you could try. Microdosing psychedelics - or some other intervention, such as yoga and/or mindfulness meditation - can show you the subtle ways in which you are not facing your pain, and suggest ways to more skillfully work with it.

To be sure, no drug can alter the circumstances in which you find yourself, but it seems like you're realizing that stimulants may put you deeper into the hole you were trying to dig yourself out of. Finding a practice that better aligns with your innate desire for health may be just the thing. Which doesn't magically solve anything, but makes it easier to find a better way to cope.

You describe the meth experience PERFECTLY lol

Oh I’d totally be keen to try microdosing, I just need to find someone here with the knowledge to get it for me and get it started.

On my 40th birthday last year I bit the bullet and tried my first ever psychedelic.
DMT.
The only problem was as soon as the trip began (the kaleidoscope of colours everywhere) I freaked out and refused to smoke anymore. Lol

I have a borderline paranoid personality by nature, and schizophrenia is in my gene pool, along with a whole other host of multiple personality type family members who are largely undiagnosed but most definitely insane.

Even weed causes me to over think at times and I have to pull myself up.
If I started seeing shit that isn’t even there, I truly worry if I’d come out of it with my sanity in tact lol