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Long-term RC storage

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enthogenist

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May 6, 2010
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As this appears to be the domain of many with technical knowledge I sorely lack, I have a question to pose.

What is the best long-term storage method for JWH series RCs? I understand that deep-freeze temps are optimum, but will the compound best retain stability when stored in powder form - or when dissolved in solution (i.e. ethanol)?

Or...does the fact that they are (relatively new) RCs preclude any definitive conclusions at all?

Thanks in advance for any tech expertise you are able to share.
 
Tryptamines and other indoles (incl. JWH) are easily oxidised; you might want to store them in an inert atmosphere. Phenethylamines should be generally stable. Ergolines need to be in the freezer, and even then Eth-LAD doesn't last very long. Dimethocaine should be stable, but it's hygoroscopic so you may want to store it with calcium chloride (available as a deicer or drying agent) to keep it from turning into glue. Nonclassical cannabinoids (CP-series) have been reported to degrade easily so I'm going with the freezer on that note, but I don't know what exactly causes the degradation.

Putting some Vitamin C into solution with whatever may stop it from oxidising. There's a lot of mythology surrounding Vitamin C but it is a decent antioxidant, all things considered.

</guesswork>
 
I gather you are saying that storing JWH in a 95% ethanol solution (at -20F) could "possibly" be more stable over the long term? The vitamin C idea is interesting. Any speculation about the amount of vitamin C that should be added?

If the dry powder were to be placed in glass vials filled to the brim, tightly closed, and not opened until (eventually) needed, would storage in the -20 medical freezer still be an inferior approach (more prone to oxidation due to the oxygen still present in the vials)?
 
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Could you provide a reference on alkylindoles being susceptable to oxidation?

I don't think these are particularly unstable compounds. They'll last fine for reasonable periods of time in the fridge. Mine show no signs of degradation over 6 months in a vial at room temperature. Just store them dry - they arent soluble enough in acetone anyway, and most things are more stable dry than in solution.
Most compounds DONT just randomly decide to degrade when in a cool, dry, sealed environment.
 
Finally......a thread on long-term storage. I've had the following info posted in the Mega thread without any very expert-level type replies. I know you aren't supposed to cross-post, but I really would like to participate in a focused discussion on this topic. Also, I've done a bunch of internet research, and hopefully someone here will benefit from what I've found. My specific interests are in JWH-018 and JWH-073.

I have searched all over the net, and I've found the following snippets (I appologize in advance for the plagerism).

“Indole compounds degrade by oxidation giving yellow and brown products. The more impurity results in intensity of the brown color and becoming a gummy like state (due to melting point suppression)”

"With all synthetic compounds, storage at temps below -20C limits molecular interaction....resulting in less degradation over time. Hence, if you want to keep it for more than a week or so, store it in the freezer in an airtight container with little shoe silicon packs to absorb water."

From a supplier in a methyl acetate solution: "For long term storage, we suggest it be stored as supplied at -20C (-4F). It should be stable for at least one year" I am not sure how much this one applies since everything normally available for purchase from most places is in powder form.

"Eventually you have a perfectly dissolved JWH solution (in Everclear) which can be stored in the freezer or fridge, in a liquor bottle or, even better, a white wine bottle with a screwcap (no cork!) works great. It will store indefinitely."

And the ubiquous: "I've kept mine in a plastic bag in my closet for 3 months and it was OK"

Like the original poster to this thread, what I am is looking for is a way to maximize storage for a long term - like decades, if possible. Considering the stuff quoted above I have postulated two theories, but really need a chemist type to chime in and help us all understand synthetic cannibanoid breakdown at the molecular level. (I am not a chemist, in any way)

Theory 1: Since Oxidation is the enemy of JWH-018, then storage in lots of little small glass vials (with no empty space between the powder and the cap/stopper to mimimize exposure to air) in your everyday stand-alone freezer would work. You would pull out individual vials when you need them, leaving the others undisturbed.

Theory 2: By melting the JWH in Ethanol, you eliminate its ability to oxidize because no air can get to the chemical once it is in liquid form. Putting the ethanol in the freezer is an added bonus that retards chemical processes.

I would love to know which of the above statements might be true (if either) and/or anyone's thoughts on the best way to maintain the potency over very long time spans (10-15 years)
 
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1 should work. Do it on a dry day for good measure, and once the cap is on, seal it with tape, then maybe some beeswax or that rubber stuff they make for coating the handles of tools, if you're really superparanoid. And obviously in that vein, amber bottles are better than clear glass ones. But i think all of this is somewhat overcautious.

2 oxygen dissolves in solvents, so it's not like a magic perfect seal, and some things are less stable in solution than dry. Ethanol is inappropriate however because the solubility of JWH-018 in ethanol is not that great, and in cold ethanol is is even less soluble. Use acetone if you insist on doing this.


And man, in 10-15 years i sure hope we'll make synthetic cannabinoids that are better than JWH-xxx's (qualitatively - i'm biased though, i hate the JWH's), though they sort of already have with CP-55,940, or better yet, we'll have legalized it by then.
 
I am grateful for the information as well. My instincts made me a bit suspicious of the ethanol solution method.

I'm thinking that a single wrap of plumbing-type teflon tape on the threads of the vials might also improve the seal.

One more question. Is the "recommended" deep-freeze environment (-20F as found in a medical freezer) worthy of the effort? If a small insulated freezer compartment maintained at 5-10F (and rarely opened) located inside a cube-type refrigerator (that also is infrequently opened) should be used for storage, would this be considered adequate?
 
TheAzo said:
2 oxygen dissolves in solvents, so it's not like a magic perfect seal, and some things are less stable in solution than dry. Ethanol is inappropriate however because the solubility of JWH-018 in ethanol is not that great, and in cold ethanol is is even less soluble. Use acetone if you insist on doing this.
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It could be recrystallised, dried and packed into sterile glass vials with PTFE lined caps under an atmosphere of dried, heavier-than-air inert gas . Then they could be stored with a dessicant in the bottom of a chest freezer filled with the same dry gas and maintained at slightly increased pressure to help prevent any air getting in over time.

No point using amber glass if you're storing in a dark freezer anyway, it would just make it difficult to check for signs of degradation, mold etc.
 
Ceres;8362381 No point using amber glass if you're storing in a dark freezer anyway said:
Point. I'll give you that one.
I got a bit caught up in the long-term-preservation paradigm.
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I am also in a similar discussion on another site, and they seem to be leaning toward dry storage too. My feeling on temperatue is that -20C is about -4F, and I just checked my stand-up freezer, and it is 0F. My feeling is this is close enough (or at least close enough that I don't want to expend funds to get the extra 4 degrees.

All-in-all, it appears that without lab-grade, rapid aging type testing, us amateur's are not going to know conclusively how to store it for the long term.

I feverently hope TheAzo is correct about legalization of the real thing. If that happens, we can get just the real extracted delta-9 THC and quit trying to go in the back door.
 
I store PEAs in air-tight vials in a dark container. Tryptamines and LSD are stored in the same, but in the freezer. Some of the more delicate tryptamines are cleaned of oxygen before sealing the vials...I use baking soda and vinegar in a cup with a lid, and a air hose attached so that CO2 is produced and is 'dripped' over the vials to push the O2 out. This seems to work as some of my tryptamines have been in storage since 2001 and they have not broken down or discolored.
 
morninggloryseed said:
I store PEAs in air-tight vials in a dark container. Tryptamines and LSD are stored in the same, but in the freezer. Some of the more delicate tryptamines are cleaned of oxygen before sealing the vials...I use baking soda and vinegar in a cup with a lid, and a air hose attached so that CO2 is produced and is 'dripped' over the vials to push the O2 out. This seems to work as some of my tryptamines have been in storage since 2001 and they have not broken down or discolored.
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I would've thought CO2 is a poor choice of gas, considering argon is so cheap and accessible.
 
Where does one buy Argon? and How do you use it to displace the oxygen in a test tube or glass vial, so that you know that you have succeeded?
 
Jwndy said:
I am also in a similar discussion on another site, and they seem to be leaning toward dry storage too. My feeling on temperatue is that -20C is about -4F, and I just checked my stand-up freezer, and it is 0F. My feeling is this is close enough (or at least close enough that I don't want to expend funds to get the extra 4 degrees.

All-in-all, it appears that without lab-grade, rapid aging type testing, us amateur's are not going to know conclusively how to store it for the long term.

I feverently hope TheAzo is correct about legalization of the real thing. If that happens, we can get just the real extracted delta-9 THC and quit trying to go in the back door.
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I've got a similar situation with the freezer thing (should have said -20C instead of -20F in my previous post - shows what an expert I ain't). Can't get the temp below -12C to -14C - but am guessing/hoping the difference isn't worth the expense of a professional-type storage freezer? What the heck - I'm sure I couldn't afford one of 'em anyway. :\
 
Ceres said:
I would've thought CO2 is a poor choice of gas, considering argon is so cheap and accessible.
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It's worked fine for me. I know CO2 can form salts with some compounds, but so far I've not seen any evidence of that happening. The most delicate compound I have (besides LSD) is that old batch of 4-Ho-DET from 2001 (the infamous 'black gooey stuff' that turns to goo when exposed to oxygen) and and the 'hygroscopic' 4-AcO-MiPT that is also known to goo up when exposed to air...but both of those have remained crystalline compounds...They both have darkened somewhat but has not turned to goo.
 
I think I can get some Argon from a welding supply house around here. As far as applying it to the tiny vials......is is sufficient to simply "pour" the gas (like I was pouring a glass of water) into the vial? Will this displace the oxygen sufficiently to purge most of it from the vial?
 
Ceres said:
I would've thought CO2 is a poor choice of gas, considering argon is so cheap and accessible.
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Nitrogen is cheaper and just as good, unless you're welding titanium or chromium, which form nitrides. None of us are welding, though, I think.

You might want argon if you're trying to preserve one of those nitrogenase enzymes all life on Earth depends on, but that's pretty niche.
 
morninggloryseed said:
It's worked fine for me. I know CO2 can form salts with some compounds, but so far I've not seen any evidence of that happening. The most delicate compound I have (besides LSD) is that old batch of 4-Ho-DET from 2001 (the infamous 'black gooey stuff' that turns to goo when exposed to oxygen) and and the 'hygroscopic' 4-AcO-MiPT that is also known to goo up when exposed to air...but both of those have remained crystalline compounds...They both have darkened somewhat but has not turned to goo.
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...but it's the taste-test that counts! =D

I would've worried about using the gas without drying it, and the chances of precipitation when everything goes in the freezer.
 
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