Long term frequent psychedelic use and heart valve disease?

[The Shadow Self]

Yeah...I don't get the Shulgin hate at all. Even if one disagrees with what he and his wife did with their lives, there is no question that he was a brilliant, inquisitive man and a genius of a chemist. One saying disparaging things about what he chose to do is merely a matter of personal opinion, but his prowess as a scientist and pioneer are kind of unquestionable. His academic and scientific accomplishments, from the viewpoint of others, is far less subjective than demonizing or being hyper-critical of his life decisions. If you are going to be pissed at anyone, be pissed at a government that feels like you are too retarded to make decisions about what you want to put in your body. After all, they are your controllers. Shulgin thumbed his nose at the establishment who frowned upon his work (when he wasn't working FOR them, which he did), and considered him to be a pariah of sorts. I don't agree with everything he did, but it they were his decisions to make. Just like, for better or worse, I extend that out to every individual. I get that Shulgin wasn't just "one of us", because he had a huge impact on the world of organic chemistry as it relates to psychedelics, but for a number of reasons, I won't get into all that.

 

[weirdling]

Because it became an obsession and he and his wife would abuse the drugs they made, and ultimately they both paid the price for this.



Actually, I'm against prohibition and the war on drugs; but nice projection of your own issues.

Psychedelic medicines? They already exist and people have been taking them for centuries in the case of cannabis, mushrooms, and cacti. Or for 73 years in the case of LSD. Shulgin did not invent MDMA, or MDA. The argument that Shulgin and his wife used them for therapeutic reasons is laughable since they apparently took all of them, and abused them. If people want to become lab rats for drugs that's their choice; but eventually it's going to catch up to their body and mind like it has done with both of them.

Also, they are only two people. Just because they and their lab rats who would blindly take anything Shulgin created did not have a bad reaction to these drugs based on having cardiac and heart problems, as Ann Shulgin is obese, does not mean that everyone will react this way.

Ain't nobody interested in your Shulgin-hater shtick. BL is in bad shape if moderators are now doing the trolling.

This is a thread about heart valve disease in relation to use of psychedelics, which is a very valid and interesting discussion item for pretty much everyone on this forum, and you come in here and completely derail the thread by randomly bringing up whether Shulgin "lost his body and mind" due to his drug use. Nice work, pal.

Why don't you start your own thread about the man and let this one run its original course.

 

[Hodor]

I love how living to the ripe old age of 88 nowadays counts as "ruining your body and mind".
Like, even if we accept that Shulgin's valvulopathy was because of his use of psychedelics and entactogens, it took a really long, long time for his drug use to catch up with him, and the damage could still be successfully mitigated by surgery at that point. As for the dementia he developed in his mid-80s, I'd attribute that more to him being old than having spent too much time on drugs.

Anyway, I feel something has been overlooked in this discussion: The fact that hallucinogens aren't just useful for getting high, but also for actual neuroscience. Ever wonder how you can measure the concentration of serotonin receptors in a brain? By labelling them with radioactive isotopes. But how do you get the isotopes to stick to the receptor? Simple, by integrating them into a molecule that strongly binds to serotonin receptors. Which is exactly what hallucinogens are.

 

[Beenhead]

Having and saying an opinion that is either not popular in this community or to someonr personally is not trolling.

Everyone should be able to share their beliefs.
Saying that the shulgins wasted their talent for choosing to research psychedelics is a little near sighted. Not all chemists are alive to cure cancer. We are needed in many fields, and his choice was to work on psychedelics after getting patents for pesticides.

Shulgin lived into his 90s. He had brain tumors i think. But if he hadnt taken drugs maybe he would reach 100? Who cares.
Ann is not overweight because hallucinogens. Thats dumb. All of america is overweight.

Now. Asking BL about heart issues is not a good idea . Please talk to a doctor about that. Psychedelics have stimulant action and stimulants are contraindicated for any heart issues

 

[mescaphysicality94]

Just because they wanted to become guinea pigs and wound up abusing their bodies and minds by taking lots of drugs, and burning out what little intelligence they had, does not mean that it's safe for people who have heart valve problems to trip or take drugs.

The original poster should talk to his/her doctor and a cardiologist and just be honest and ask them about their heart issues and drug use, and if it's safe for them to take certain drugs.

You have yet to give a citation as to why they shouldn't be tripping. Beyond that I am sure you abused drugs much more than the extremily cautious genius who took very reasonable doses and extreme procausion when using any drug. He also contibuted a lot more positivity in the world than a person like you, who is excited to judge people they have never had any sort of interaction with. That is extremely narcisistic, and I am glad someone like him was around to create so much positivity to even out all negative people like you. At least he died happy, doing what he loved, sorrounded by those he loved. Based on the way you post it is easy to see you haven't achieved the same level of happiness in your life that he did. You are never posting something uplifting. I bet you will die much less happy and much less fufilled than the people you look down upon from the pedestool, bud. You can disagree with someone and still respect that thier knowledge and talents greatly outweigh that of your own, and that what they contributed to the world will live on for years to come, as opposed to the much less significant mark your own life will leave on this world. If you think that man who did so much squandered his talents, what have you done remotely comparable? If you can't give me anything, I would argue you wasted a lot more than he did.

 

[Vanishedintheair]

I don't have a valve problem, more closer to a cardiomyopathy.

There is little research on this, so your doctor wouldn't know. And what else can he say except tell you NOT to take recreation drugs.

From my experience, I haven't noticed any physical harm. However, I tend to worry about it during my trip and it kind of spoils the fun.

Psychedelics can cause tachycardia, especially if you panic. That's probably not very good for you. They can also cause unusual sensations which can be misinterpreted as something dangerous.

I recommed keeping your dosage low and your trip mild and under control.

 

[jonteng]

I'm a bit paranoid/concerned about this issue. Most (all?) of the psychedelics are agonists of the 5ht2b receptor. I don't imagine tripping once a month could possibly make this a risk, but it's probably the one thing that holds me back from microdosing all the time.

This is a document with the affinity of many psychedelics for receptors 5h-t2b:

5ht2b: 4.00 DOB, 4.00 MDA, 4.00 Aleph-2, 4.00 2C-B-fly, 4.00 2C-B, 4.00 TMA, 4.00 psilocin, 4.00 TMA-2, 4.00 2C-E, 4.00 2C-T-2, 4.00 4C-T-2, 4.00 MEM, 4.00 DOM, 3.97 mescaline, 3.93 6-F-DMT, 3.91 5-MeO-DIPT, 3.91 DMT, 3.88 DPT, 3.70 DOET, 3.64 MDMA, 3.48 DIPT, 3.32 5-MeO-MIPT, 3.13 DOI, 3.11 LSD, 3.01 lisuride, 2.72 cis-2a, 2.17 SS-2c, 1.81 RR-2b, 0.69 5-MeO-DMT; 0.00 salvinorin A; ND: 5-MeO-TMT, ibogaine, EMDT, morphine, THC

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0009019

With lysergamides, another risk (microdosing) to consider would be this one:

Medicines containing substances known as ergot derivatives can have serious side effects, called fibrosis and ergotism. As a result, they should no longer be used in the EU to treat a number of conditions involving blood circulation problems (that usually affect elderly patients) or problems with memory and sensation, or to prevent migraine headaches, as the risks outweigh the benefits.
This is based on a review of data showing an increased risk of fibrosis (formation of excess connective tissue that can damage organs and body structures) with these medicines.

Ergot derivatives are recognised as being capable of inducing fibrosis, in particular heart-valve fibrosis, through serotoninergic-receptor activation, which is extensively described in the literature. The varying affinity for serotoninergic receptors of the different ergot derivatives, and the therapeutic doses used, may explain the differences observed in reporting frequencies for the fibrotic reactions.

http://www.ema.europa.eu/ema/index....ews_detail_001832.jsp&mid=WC0b01ac058004d5c1b

Probably from War on Drugs propaganda attacking the Shulgin's reputation. Alexander Shuglin spent decades developing psychedelic medicines.

Hence, the governments attacked the reputation of the people promoting psychedelics in an attempt at discrediting the work they do..

Shulgin worked (indirectly?) to the government:

STP (aka DOM) was developed in 1964 by an experimental chimist working for the Dow Chemical Company, which provided samples of the drug to Edgewood Arsenal, headquarters of the US Army Chemical Corps...In early 1967, for some inexplicable reason, the formula for STP was released to the scientific communauty at large...

https://books.google.fr/books?id=_o...#v=onepage&q=STP dow chemical company&f=false

 

[RhythmSpring]

If you have issues with your heart valve, or cardiac problems you should not be using drugs or tripping.

Total Bullshit. I know the MO here is harm reduction, but that's a sweeping statement with absolutely no thought put into it. You wanna back anything up?

 

[TheAppleCore]

Just because they wanted to become guinea pigs and wound up abusing their bodies and minds by taking lots of drugs, and burning out what little intelligence they had, does not mean that it's safe for people who have heart valve problems to trip or take drugs.

...

They ended up burning "what little intelligence they had"? First of all, what evidence do you have that they "burned" their intelligence? Secondly, I'm no chemist, but to have singlehandedly developed the majority of all the synthetic psychedelics that exist on the market today strikes me as necessitating more than a little intelligence.

Dr. Shulgin wasted his intelligence, talent, and ability with organic chemistry focusing only on drugs/psychedelics and becoming obsessed with them, instead of using his talents to do something that would actually change the world and humanity besides creating more drugs for people to get high on and abuse which they both did.

Some of us genuinely appreciate having access to a wide spectrum of different psychedelics, each with their own unique character and applications. To say that Shulgin wasted his life with his interest in psychedelics is incredibly presumptuous.

I've seen a handful of your posts here, PriestTheyCalledHim, which basically amount to anti-drug rhetoric. I never said anything, because it's only fair to have a diversity of opinions on Bluelight, but the more I read from you, the more it seems to me that you have an axe to grind, and your way of dealing with it is to find people to diss for wasting their time getting high.

You're perfectly entitled to your opinions about drugs, but frankly, an anti-drug mentality really doesn't serve any harm reduction purpose, so I don't see the necessity for bringing it to PD.

 

[afellowtripper]

Some background info: several years ago I was using magic mushrooms quite frequently over a 2 year period. Sometimes I was using a few times a week other times every couple weeks. I had over 100+ trips in a 2 year period.

One day, while I was tripping I was leaning over the side of my bed to pick up a book and I felt this shape stabbing pain right over top of my liver on the right side of my chest. What resulted was a bit of a scary experience where a tingling, numbing sensation propagated from where I felt the pain to eventually encompass my entire chest (though looking back at the experience it was kind of cool too - I was definitely tripping hehe). I tripped a couple more times after than and I had the same tingling, numbing sensation again each time. That area where I felt the pain was sore for a couple weeks thereafter and went to see my doctor about it.

I explained what happened and just to rule out any problems with my organs my doctor had me do a liver function test as well as an echo cardiogram. The liver function test was all good and the echo cardiogram showed that my heart and valves were healthy too.

Funny part of the story is the last thing my doctor suggested was that it could just be trapped gas stuck in the fold where the ascending colon meets the transverse colon; about 3 weeks later the discomfort shifted to my left side and, well, it turned out to be trapped gas.

Now that I'm 30, I should probably get a checkup; I'm not worried about anything at the moment but I should do some preventative health checks just to be certain, including getting my heart checked out again.

Edit: I should also note that my experience should not be taken as indicative of what others will experience with frequent use. As of learning ( a couple weeks ago) about the possible side effect of 5HT2B agonists on heart valves, I am currently re-evaluating how frequently I want to be using psychedelics. My recent history, I've been using LSD every weekend for 10 months (and on many occasions twice a weekend); soooooo, I should probably reduce my frequency of use.

 

[Vanishedintheair]

Some background info: several years ago I was using magic mushrooms quite frequently over a 2 year period. Sometimes I was using a few times a week other times every couple weeks. I had over 100+ trips in a 2 year period.

One day, while I was tripping I was leaning over the side of my bed to pick up a book and I felt this shape stabbing pain right over top of my liver on the right side of my chest. What resulted was a bit of a scary experience where a tingling, numbing sensation propagated from where I felt the pain to eventually encompass my entire chest (though looking back at the experience it was kind of cool too - I was definitely tripping hehe). I tripped a couple more times after than and I had the same tingling, numbing sensation again each time. That area where I felt the pain was sore for a couple weeks thereafter and went to see my doctor about it.

I explained what happened and just to rule out any problems with my organs my doctor had me do a liver function test as well as an echo cardiogram. The liver function test was all good and the echo cardiogram showed that my heart and valves were healthy too.

Funny part of the story is the last thing my doctor suggested was that it could just be trapped gas stuck in the fold where the ascending colon meets the transverse colon; about 3 weeks later the discomfort shifted to my left side and, well, it turned out to be trapped gas.

Now that I'm 30, I should probably get a checkup; I'm not worried about anything at the moment but I should do some preventative health checks just to be certain, including getting my heart checked out again.

Yes! Exactly. If you already knew you had a weak heart, you'd probably have called an ambulance. LOL.
I keep my trips light and fun, but I still do a bit of habitual blood pressure checking. I just can't help it.