Little worried.

[llama112]

I think the OP has it figured out, but it is mostly just panicking anymore. Do you have anxiety? Perhaps your MDMA experience may have gotten your more anxious than usual. I had a couple psychedelic experiences that made my anxiety really really bad. Never happened to me with MDMA but still, it has different effects for everyone.

 

[First Bad Comedown]

First Bad Comedown

If you're going to talk science then act like a scientist. Don't make claims without proof...

...Please produce the properly conducted trial that shows that this sort of single dose of MDMA has caused permanent brain damaged in a human? More specifically, that it has caused damage in this guy. You can't obviously.

Scientists almost never present 'proof'.
And asking for the 'properly conducted trial' to 'prove' that this guy damaged his brain is an illustration of just how LITTLE science you understand.

Researchers have not given anything NEAR his dose of MDMA to a human - and they certainly have not sacrificed one shortly after to stain and slice up their brain. The 'proof' you desire is an unrealistic expectation.
Typical of an arrogant drug user, but more expected in the younger crowd.

Andronicus, your tone in this and other threads is shockingly arrogant.
You start off by poking fun at the suffering of other members - as seen in this thread:
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/594266-MDMA-damage-need-some-help-fast

Making remarks like this -
"No you're fucked now mate. Years of depression and anxiety await. You'll almost certain need ECT.
Oh yeah and your knob will drop off in a week."

Is pathetic.

Go back to that thread and count the number of MDMA victims present.
Try, if you can, to sympathize.

Some people are VERY damaged by MDMA - and it is NOT just about how they decide to handle it.
What do YOU gain from criticizing those who are suffering?
What does it do for you?

Does it make you feel better about the 'brain damage' you have administered to yourself over your lifetime?
Regardless of your motivation, you should think twice about insulting or arguing with me.
Others have tried without success.

I have all the 'science' you could argue with, and a lot more stamina.

Yes, the fact that serotonin and its receptors are found PRIMARILY in the gut means that its PRIMARY purpose is in the gut.
The name 'serotonin' literally comes from the 'serum' that 'tones' or contracts the muscle around the intestines.
Along with the dopamine network, it is one of the OLDEST neurotransmitters in existence.

The human brain evolved around the gut, not the other way around.

MRI scans reveal nothing about nerves, by the way.
They detect changes in blood flow.
And the OP very likely has SOME detectable alteration in cerebral blood distribution due to an excessive dose of MDMA.
This could be explained with the 'movement' of serotonin nerves, or a simple drop in serotonin levels.

Do I 'know' that he 'moved' some nerves?
Are you kidding me?

I believe that ALL MDMA use involves the redistribution of serotonin axons from the higher brain to the hypothalamus.
Acute MDMA injury, seen in MANY lines of animal research, strongly suggest that 'recovery' involves the hyperinnervation of the hypothalamus.

So yes, in a way, nerves are 'moved' by MDMA.
The cell body itself is not moved, but the axonal projections sure as HELL are.

If you knew a damn thing about the hypothalamus-pituitary-adrenal axis, you would know that it's interaction with serotonin is CRITICAL.

All anti-depressants as well as ECT aim to adjust HPA axis function.
MDMA has powerful effects on the HPA - sometimes powerful enough to be LETHAL.
Even in the 'normal' experience of rolling, a HUGE release of cortisol from the adrenals occurs - followed by prolactin/oxytocin, ADH, and others from the pituitary.

No, the definitive study that 'proves' brain damage occurs in humans does not yet exist.
But a WEALTH of data suggests that this is the case.

How 'brain damage' or 'toxicity' is defined may still be in debate, as are the life-long ramifications.
But there is NO debate in the scientific community about 'reorganization'.

Do you even understand me old man?

"MDMA is a selective neurotoxin targeting the higher cortical axons of the 5-HT system."

or

"It is well-established that MDMA re-organizes the ascending axonal structure of the serotonin network, leaving higher cortical regions denervated - while recovery or even hyper-innervation of subcortical regions is evident."

I'd give you the links, but then you wouldn't have the desire to read something that disagrees with you.
Tell you what - you go and look for META studies.
Spend a few days reading about what HUNDREDS of scientists have come to agree on.

Then come back and face me.
Until then, keep your pathetic attitude away from threads like these.
And certainly, don't point it in my direction.

 

[ctt04]

Honestly you are probably totally fine with no damage at all. Ive done the same thing you did, I felt a bit tired the next day but that was most likely due to going to bed super late and waking up semi early. The fact that you are healthy means you have a resilient body, which im sure helps your situation quite a bit. And to the people saying to take months and months off... why? When you use mdma it drains most of your serotonin. Im sure the amount of serotonin lost using 200mg or using a gram is negligible. I dont have any proof, but that seems logical. The only reason I can think of to wait more than a couple months is to let your tolerance go back down. You are fine man.

 

[Andronicus]

Scientists almost never present 'proof'.
And asking for the 'properly conducted trial' to 'prove' that this guy damaged his brain is an illustration of just how LITTLE science you understand.

Researchers have not given anything NEAR his dose of MDMA to a human - and they certainly have not sacrificed one shortly after to stain and slice up their brain. The 'proof' you desire is an unrealistic expectation.
Typical of an arrogant drug user, but more expected in the younger crowd.

Andronicus, your tone in this and other threads is shockingly arrogant.
You start off by poking fun at the suffering of other members - as seen in this thread:
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/594266-MDMA-damage-need-some-help-fast

Making remarks like this -
"No you're fucked now mate. Years of depression and anxiety await. You'll almost certain need ECT.
Oh yeah and your knob will drop off in a week."

Is pathetic.

Go back to that thread and count the number of MDMA victims present.
Try, if you can, to sympathize.

Some people are VERY damaged by MDMA - and it is NOT just about how they decide to handle it.
What do YOU gain from criticizing those who are suffering?
What does it do for you?

Does it make you feel better about the 'brain damage' you have administered to yourself over your lifetime?
Regardless of your motivation, you should think twice about insulting or arguing with me.
Others have tried without success.

I have all the 'science' you could argue with, and a lot more stamina.

Yes, the fact that serotonin and its receptors are found PRIMARILY in the gut means that its PRIMARY purpose is in the gut.
The name 'serotonin' literally comes from the 'serum' that 'tones' or contracts the muscle around the intestines.
Along with the dopamine network, it is one of the OLDEST neurotransmitters in existence.

The human brain evolved around the gut, not the other way around.

MRI scans reveal nothing about nerves, by the way.
They detect changes in blood flow.
And the OP very likely has SOME detectable alteration in cerebral blood distribution due to an excessive dose of MDMA.
This could be explained with the 'movement' of serotonin nerves, or a simple drop in serotonin levels.

Do I 'know' that he 'moved' some nerves?
Are you kidding me?

I believe that ALL MDMA use involves the redistribution of serotonin axons from the higher brain to the hypothalamus.
Acute MDMA injury, seen in MANY lines of animal research, strongly suggest that 'recovery' involves the hyperinnervation of the hypothalamus.

So yes, in a way, nerves are 'moved' by MDMA.
The cell body itself is not moved, but the axonal projections sure as HELL are.

If you knew a damn thing about the hypothalamus-pituitary-adrenal axis, you would know that it's interaction with serotonin is CRITICAL.

All anti-depressants as well as ECT aim to adjust HPA axis function.
MDMA has powerful effects on the HPA - sometimes powerful enough to be LETHAL.
Even in the 'normal' experience of rolling, a HUGE release of cortisol from the adrenals occurs - followed by prolactin/oxytocin, ADH, and others from the pituitary.

No, the definitive study that 'proves' brain damage occurs in humans does not yet exist.
But a WEALTH of data suggests that this is the case.

How 'brain damage' or 'toxicity' is defined may still be in debate, as are the life-long ramifications.
But there is NO debate in the scientific community about 'reorganization'.

Do you even understand me old man?

"MDMA is a selective neurotoxin targeting the higher cortical axons of the 5-HT system."

or

"It is well-established that MDMA re-organizes the ascending axonal structure of the serotonin network, leaving higher cortical regions denervated - while recovery or even hyper-innervation of subcortical regions is evident."

I'd give you the links, but then you wouldn't have the desire to read something that disagrees with you.
Tell you what - you go and look for META studies.
Spend a few days reading about what HUNDREDS of scientists have come to agree on.

Then come back and face me.
Until then, keep your pathetic attitude away from threads like these.
And certainly, don't point it in my direction.

Actually good scientists do provide proof, or at least very strong evidence to back up claims all the time

You can't obviously because the statements you made are just not true. Just one example: "I believe ALL MDMA use involves the redistribution...". At least now it's a belief not a fact and again you provide no proof that ALL MDMA use does this as opposed to some studies given certain parameters.

My wry comments about his knob dropping off were just light hearted fun to point out that he might be worrying about nothing.

You think I'm "shockingly arrogant". Is that because I question what you say? I think comments like "other have tried without success", "I have all the 'science' you could argue with, and a lot more stamina.". In the other thread you link to you enter the thread with "I see a thread in need of my attention. When I have the proper time to spend on it, you can count on a valuable contribution." LOL. Surely even you have to admit that is arrogant?

You say I insulted you yet I read my posts back and I can't find any insult at all. However you chip in with "Do you even understand me old man?", "your pathetic attitude", "but then you wouldn't have the desire to read something that disagrees with you" and so on. Again I can see some insults and bad attitude here but it's coming from you.

All I was saying was that you, I or anyone else has no evidence that this guy has damaged his brain, or even that any permanent changes have been made. You made a series of bold claims about this specific case for which you have little or no evidence and I'm calling you out.

Maybe you could tone down your claims a little. E.g. you can say something like: "in some studies, longer term exposure to MDMA resulted in reorganisation of neuronal activity. You're not a long term user but you took a higher dose so it's POSSIBLE you may have experienced this. We don't know if it's permanent". Then I'd have no reason to call you out. That is reasonable and accurate rather than your previous posts.

In your last post you're still making claims that go beyond the evidence. You're extrapolating research beyond the known limits. You also fail to provide the references to back up the specific claims. Again I have to insist you have no evidence that this guy has "moved nerves". You're retreated to redefining what that phrase means from it's obvious meaning and added "I believe" and "or a simple drop in serotonin". That is more acceptable because you now admit it is a belief and might not even have happened.

You appear to have got it into your head that my joke, designed to get the guy to chill out about it, is some kind of statement proving I'm some kind of denier or all MDMA related harm. If so then you're wrong about that. I personally think there is evidence to show brain changes in long term use. How permanent it is, how pathological it is and how well animal studies transfer to humans are all confounding factors however. My comments are not denying the possibility of damage to long terms use. They are merely shedding doubt on your apparent certainty of what has happened in this individual's brain after a single, large dose of MDMA of unknown strength.

I don't want to make it as personal as you have done so I won't. But I think you're enthusiasm (obsession?) for the subject isn't helping with you making calm, considered and careful claims.