Let's talk about Racism

[ebola?]

mmm...if this develops further, we might want a separate thread on immigration policy (although it binds inextricably with race).

Man that is some good stuff, but it sure is radical.

1. Thanks.
2. I hope that it is, as I'm a leftist extremist. Seriously.

How does the U.S. immigration policy differ from other nations?

It is radically more lax than most all European nations, Japan, and to a lesser extent Canada, etc. I'll assume that you are interesting mainly in 'developed' nations. Historically, 'we' have imposed various regulations to shape the proportions of nationalities coming in, sometimes subtly and sometimes blatantly brutally, but usually motivated by ethnic chauvinism or racism.

So. . .my opinion is that the US's immigration policy is wrong-headed, but others' are even worse.

I think it could be a shock that the already weak American economy couldn't take at this moment, or perhaps ever.

I'll give two answers, the first focusing on low-level, undocumented Latinos, and the second on highly skilled professoinals:

In what way? Labor from undocumented Latinos provides the state a net gain in funding (per the cooked books, social security is deducted, but they can never collect it), reduces commodity prices by virtue of low, highly exploitative wages, and pushes other people's wages upward, as bottom-level (in terms of pay and status) jobs are excised from the 'mainstream' labor market.

If things get really bad, where we have a group analogous to the Oakies of the great depression who resorted to bottom-level migrant-labor jobs, then immigrants could potentially negatively affect domestic workers in competing with them. However, history suggests that in this situation, racism prevails: the immigrants are fired and domestic demands are placated.

With skilled immigrants, things are a bit different. They could potentially undercut salaries for domestic professoinals, and they present negative labor-market effects as any new entrant thereto would. However, to take South Asians in silicon valley as an example, immigrants appear to be demanding the same wages as domestic WASPs. They also stimulate our country's aggregate demand and provide their inventiveness.

But what if they send remittances home or emigrate once there are jobs back there? While this surely hurts us in the short term, I still consider it just. Given that national inequalities of wealth arose out of imperial pillage, such transfers of wealth, in addition to job opportunities for immigrants, make the economy just a bit more just. I don't think that capricious conditions of birth justify property claims.

In the longer run, the game runs far from zero-sum. As prior poor nations and populaces get richer, increased demand stimulates increase productive output, enlarging the pie to be split.

But besides that I am sure that the competition for employment would surely make it hard on some friends, hopefully my college degree i'm almost finished with shall keep me afloat if that were to happen...

Are your friends migrant laborers? Are they employees in discount maid services? Do they take care of people's lawns?

If they're computer programmers, what makes their claim to work more legitimate than a Pakistani on work visa?

 

[slimvictor]

#1))Hahah c'mon. I don't know, what does the word common even mean anyway? Enough with the pscyhobabble seriously.

It's only "psychobabble"if you don't understand it (and, presumably, feel threatened by it). But to me, it's common sense. Thanks for supporting my argument about the questionable validity of the idea of so-called "common sense".

It's not that complicated. People speak English in America.

This is the problem I have with your view. It oversimplifies things greatly. Many people speak English, and many people don't. If 18% of Americans don't speak English (natively), according to the 2000 census, that is a lot of people. Assuming a population of 300 million, that represents 54 million people. The population of California is 33 million, Oregon is 3.5 million, and Washington is 6.5 million. That gives us 43 million, still less than the number of non-native speakers in the US. So saying the people speak English in America is like you pretending that the US doesn't have a west coast, plus a few more states.

You move to America, attempt to learn it. It aides in the transition and helps immigrants bond with natives. It's that simple.

It's funny, but I just realized that you seem to be arguing against something I never said, and that I don't believe. I also support the idea of teaching immigrants English, for the same reasons you state. We may have been in agreement all this time!

I am glad to hear that you respect the languages and people that are different than you. But I think that if you thought about it a bit more deeply, you would feel more compassion than you have shown. Some immigrants struggle to survive, working multiple jobs, seven days a week, so I am not sure when you would suggest that they go to English classes. Still, I agree that it would be ideal if they could learn English. A government program to help them with this might work (I am not a Libertarian, by the way). Are you willing to support it with your tax dollars?

And why don't you go ahead and tell me what the "national" or "official" language of the US is...

There is no official or national language in the US.
To my knowledge, there has never been.

By the way, many countries have multiple official languages, such as Canada, Belgium, and Singapore, and they do quite nicely.

 

[TwisteTexan]

I got 2 good laughs out of slim and ebowla's replies...

ebola- "2. I hope that it is, as I'm a leftist extremist. Seriously."
I consider myself more conservative, but it's great that you come right out with that... You surely have the right to believe whatever you like. made me laugh.

And the fact that SlimVictor is using psychobabble... Lol, psychobabble... I am pretty sure I have heard either Rush, Hannity, or Levin use that term... But, slim's stuff isn't psychobabble, it's actually damn refined... If anyone has spit psychobabble on this post it's me. And i'm damn proud.

well guys, i'm headed back to the parent's for the weekend, I really enjoy this dialog can't wait to check it monday... I might even fire up mom's 56.6kbs and come see what's up

by the way, I find Mark Levin to be fascinating. There is my right winger status, suprise 8) well sorta, I guess i'm pretty easy to judge

 

[Ousley]

I'm not racist, I hate everybody equally! just kidding

 

[moonyham]

1: if i need a lite for a cigarette and theres a black dude and a white dude that i can ask.. im gonna ask the white dude. I dont care what you think tbh, black people are more likely to commit crime that is FACT and ive never had a white person try to jump me, only blacks and browns(i call brown people blacks just for simplicity sakes).

2: Theres no reason why people cant get them selves out of a hole. Every civilization and country has gone through hardships and most have managed to come better off.. oh except for countrys where they are black they all just rot and put there hands out asking for free food.


Basically, if germany, france, england, spain and so on have managed to become the countrys they are today, then so can ANY country. So stop making EXCUSES about famine this and aids that, and start makign SOLUTIONS is what i say to africa.

You see.. im not racist, im just realistic. Whites are obviously superior if every white country is first world/developed and every(almost) black country has slums everywhere, famine, disease, and no police or medical help.

 

[swilow]

^You do realise Africa is a continent of many countries, whilst 'germany, france, england, spain' are, in fact, seperate countries?

The problem for many African countries has been the impact of colonialism; I feel quite certain if christinanety was not so prevalent in many of these places, things like AIDs would be on the decline. Sadly, they are not.

Anyway, your opinion is your own, and your entitiled to it, even though its wrong. If you won't ask a brown/black person for a lighter, bad luck. Also- who cares? Whats that got to do with racism, except as a good example thereof?

Bah. Theres no such thing as black or white, just people. Strangely, as science confirms, we are all descended from the same hominins, and in fact, are the same race- Homo sapiens sapiens. There is no other human race.

Anyhow, I try and transcend that sort of thing. All cultures have something to offer, lighters or otherwise, but if you close yourself in, you may thing your being real, but your living in a dream.

 

[TwisteTexan]

It is just so so true that blacks commit far more crimes than whites in america. It may be due to their upbringing, but grow up with them you will see their enthusiasm for crime... It is a damn shame but it's true, listen to hip hop, watch bet, go to the black part of town... IT PISSES ME OFF. They blame it all on "crackers" and the white "man" too. This is not all of them but more than 50 percent do ont like and do not trust whites... I doubt more than 50 percent of whites dislike blacks... maybe 10-15 percent. I don't dislike them, I just feel discriminated against. If there is any racism in texas it is the blacks being racist toward whites becuase of the few incidents which get blown up on the news... How many times does the news show white families being robbed of cars and or beaten just because they were in the wrong part of town? That's not good headlines... I despise black power and white power, but i'm not gonna let the blacks continue to be hypocrites!

 

[swilow]

^If 'black' people committ more crimes, I'd like to see evidence; and then we can examine that, and find that crime rates tend to be higher amongst minority ethnic groups who are living in poverty because they were used as slaves for years after being forcibly stolen from their homeland. Same goes with indigenous Aussies; many people think they are mere drunks and criminals, but the truth is, they had a flourishing civilisation which was stolen from them; imagine yourself suddenly taken over by a tribal group and forced to adopt those customs- would you be able to assimilate? Consider what the changes would be for you, and see if you can use some logic to see how it is for many, many ethnic groups.

 

[Papa1]

^ Right. People don't exist independently. Their health, mental well being and opportunities for change all depend on the environment they were born into. Just 150 years ago (7 or 8 generations at most) african americans in the us were held as property, slaves; just 50 years ago they were subhuman by law. Communities, advocacy groups, supportive institutions, integration, confidence and pride, these are all multi-generational projects which are essential to the success and functioning of any people. We are all the products of our environment, and therefore our history. This needs to be held in mind any time you read crime statistics or watch the news. As Swilow said, its the same story story the world over...

 

[Pharcyde]

Um I guess Im racist......

I have colored friends............

I use certain words in public that most people wouldnt.....

I dont hate other races, but Im proud of mine and am not afraid to say it........

I will always side with my race, even if theyre wrong.......

Am I racist? Maybe, or maybe Im just proudto be white......

 

[KStoner6tb]

^If 'black' people committ more crimes, I'd like to see evidence; and then we can examine that, and find that crime rates tend to be higher amongst minority ethnic groups who are living in poverty because they were used as slaves for years after being forcibly stolen from their homeland. Same goes with indigenous Aussies; many people think they are mere drunks and criminals, but the truth is, they had a flourishing civilisation which was stolen from them; imagine yourself suddenly taken over by a tribal group and forced to adopt those customs- would you be able to assimilate? Consider what the changes would be for you, and see if you can use some logic to see how it is for many, many ethnic groups.

Evidence? It's a fairly well known fact that the number of black inmates for outnumbers white in American prisons. Google it man.

It's just the whole hip-hop culture. It's ok for people(of any ethnicity) to "want to be" or to "act black" It's the cool thing to do. The clothes, the slang, the attitude.

There are some people who don't wish to be "hip-hop." If somebody acted so brash, cocky, and abrasive about being proud to be white, they're considered a straight up racist. There's a double standard, it's a fact.

 

[Pharcyde]

I do hate "wiggers" and I do say certain things to them. Things that if I posted here would be a warning for sure

 

[Papa1]

Evidence? It's a fairly well known fact that the number of black inmates for outnumbers white in American prisons. Google it man.

It's just the whole hip-hop culture. It's ok for people(of any ethnicity) to "want to be" or to "act black" It's the cool thing to do. The clothes, the slang, the attitude.

There are some people who don't wish to be "hip-hop." If somebody acted so brash, cocky, and abrasive about being proud to be white, they're considered a straight up racist. There's a double standard, it's a fact.

Black culture today is a product of its history. You can't separate the two. Part of that history is slavery, discrimination, abuse and neglect, and that can't be forgotten when you're reading crime statistics or judging the guys on the bus.

Everyone needs to be held to the same legal standard, but you need compassion and an understanding of history (i.e. where people and their roots have been) when doing so...

 

[KStoner6tb]

^^You believe the same with native american history? I believe they went through a lot more shit than african americans. Haha and I'm not judging the guy on the bus. I am proud to be white, and from the south. Everybody automatically associates the south with racism. I get along fine with blacks, and have 2 very close mexican-american friends.

So, I'm supposed to not be proud of being southern, because some people owned slaves 150 years ago? I wasn't sicking a german shepperd on a black man in 1962 mobile, alabama. People have changed for the better, realize their mistakes; it's called forgiveness.

(southern)Whites are soo scared of being proud of their culture because everyone's SOO deathly afraid of being labeled a racist for it. When, most of the time they are unjustly so.

 

[ebola?]

I'm talking about TODAY [in terms of national languages].

I disagree. You appear to be talking about a bygone era where America's dominant emancipatory project was to unify everyone in a single, modern social and economic system, including a unified culture rooted in the Enlightenment. As various identity-political projects have shown, this universalist project bore hidden biases and exclusions.

Given America's demographic changes, a more pluralist approach is now appropriate.

Sometimes you can just go with common sense without getting too intellectual to prove a point.

1. This is pretty much how I think and talk by default. That does not entail that it is the only right way, however
2. when racism functions concealed behind a veneer of race-blind meritocracy, naked common sense just won't do it.

People speak English in America. You move to America, attempt to learn it. It aides in the transition and helps immigrants bond with natives. It's that simple.

This sounds like an issue of individual life-skills, not an edict pointing to the validity of a certain type of political domination.

Respect the country YOU LIVE in, and the people here inhabbiting it by attempting to speak the predominant language spoken.

I'm happy respecting my neighbors, but why should I respect my 'country' (whatever that might be)? If I view the state as an illegitimate construct born of a history of domination, exploitation, and violent exclusion, why should I respect its legitimacy (that is, the legitimacy of my rulers)?

And why don't you go ahead and tell me what the "national" or "official" language of the US is...

This is very easy--we lack one.

1: if i need a lite for a cigarette and theres a black dude and a white dude that i can ask.. im gonna ask the white dude. I dont care what you think tbh, black people are more likely to commit crime that is FACT and ive never had a white person try to jump me, only blacks and browns(i call brown people blacks just for simplicity sakes).

A simple analogy:
Most cocaine users started out drinking milk as children.
Most milk-drinkers remain cocaine naive.
Is dairy to be avoided based on the above information alone?

The fact of the matter is, what you see as 'black crime' appeared as a fairly direct effect of geographically and racially concentrated poverty, as structural economic change stripped the inner city of economic opportunity. Why is this a racial issue? Prior and current housing discrimination barred many African Americans entry to areas outside the city.

Yes, most people who are subject to such conditions and turn to crime as their sole source of economic opportunity are Black or Latino. However, a tiny minority of Blacks and Latinos instigate such crime, and when they do, it's overwhelmingly against their neighbors in the inner city.

Theres no reason why people cant get them selves out of a hole. Every civilization and country has gone through hardships and most have managed to come better off.. oh except for countrys where they are black they all just rot and put there hands out asking for free food.

How are we to interpret the fact that those countries who prospered most quickly were colonial superpowers, and then the US, who benefited uniquely from exemption from massive destruction during WWII and its resource-rich frontier (based in 'internal colonialism')? Of course the poor countries are predominantly black and brown, for race as we know it coevolved with colonial practice.

Basically, if germany, france, england, spain and so on have managed to become the countrys they are today, then so can ANY country.

Perhaps you mean, any country that benefited from the Marshall Plan.

You see.. im not racist, im just realistic.

One person's realism is another's myopia and reification.

I tend to think racism will end simply by social mixing and a strong social norm against such thinking.

For the most part, we already enjoy the latter. However, inter-institutional dynamics following the Jim Crow area have for the most part structured society to preclude the former.

bah...more later.

ebola

 

[swilow]

^Win

If people cannot see that most humans are products of their environment, both long-term and the immediate environment, they are blind.

There are some people who don't wish to be "hip-hop." If somebody acted so brash, cocky, and abrasive about being proud to be white, they're considered a straight up racist. There's a double standard, it's a fact.

Because "white pride" usually comes with hatred of other races. Being proud of your heritage is a way of making sense of it; most blacks who are proud of the fact do so because people have tried to wipe them out. I'd be proud to know my lineage had fought back. As it stands, I am not ashamed that I have white skin, but I have indigenous aussie ancestors- either way, I am still not proud of myself.

 

[KStoner6tb]

^Win

Because "white pride" usually comes with hatred of other races. Being proud of your heritage is a way of making sense of it; most blacks who are proud of the fact do so because people have tried to wipe them out. I'd be proud to know my lineage had fought back. As it stands, I am not ashamed that I have white skin, but I have indigenous aussie ancestors- either way, I am still not proud of myself.

I've come across more racist blacks, than I have whites. Sure, a 70 year old black man had to endure some fucked up shit back in his day. I can understand him being a little resentful, as that shit will stay with you for life. But the black youth of today, who are being raised to despise whites, because of shit their grandpa went through?? How does that help solve anything? IMO young white men are more accepting of young blacks than vice versa.

So it's my fault my grandpa didn't have to go through any racial discrimination bullshit? That means he wasn't a good man, and I shouldn't be proud of what I come from? I shouldn't be proud of who I am because my great grandparents didn't have to put up with segregation? Oh and that automatically means I, myself hate other races because I"m proud to be white? You know, you can be proud to be white without being a backwoods, hillbilly dumbass whose idea of a party is lighting up a couple crosses in their front yard on a Saturday night.

Sounds kind of ignorant and presumptuous on your part no? You actually proved my point. Without even knowing the person, you assume they hate other races because they're proud of their (white) heritage. Fail

 

[ebola?]

My apologies for repeating myself a bit...

listen to hip hop, watch bet, go to the black part of town... IT PISSES ME OFF. They blame it all on "crackers" and the white "man" too.

We shouldn't confuse the propagation of media stereotypes with authentic cultural artifacts and meanings. Beyond that, the 'reverse-racism' that you perceive stems from a couple of conditions:

1. Giving the author of a particular message a great deal of credit, we can say that 'the white man' is responsible for the current condition of African Americans in the sense that it was indeed whites that set up a system of privilege and oppression to work in their favor, a system that continues to operate in transmuted form despite (and indeed now because of) a widely held ethic of color blindness.

This does not indicate that particular whites, now living, bear responsibility for this type of racism.

2. Giving this message less credit, it's simply emblematic of humans' tendency to turn to blame individuals rather than the less exciting, more cognitively taxing task of critiquing wider social systems.

This is not all of them but more than 50 percent do ont like and do not trust whites... I doubt more than 50 percent of whites dislike blacks... maybe 10-15 percent.

Where are you getting such statistics from?

To argue more generally, I believe white racism and 'reverse-racism' to function distinctly by virtue of being situated in different social contexts. White racism functions to reinforce status-quo privilege while anti-white racism is a reaction against such privilege, its expressions often based in oversimplification and misunderstanding of the 'Black Power' form of anti-racism (which is linked with the internal-colonial analysis of racial oppression).

imagine yourself suddenly taken over by a tribal group and forced to adopt those customs- would you be able to assimilate? Consider what the changes would be for you, and see if you can use some logic to see how it is for many, many ethnic groups.

exactly.
The Afro-centric turn of African American culture is a very different animal from 'white pride' (or whatever). African Americans often express pride in their identity because they are enmeshed in a project to reconstruct and reinvent a culture of their own in the wake of its prior obliteration.

'White pride', on the other hand, is simply a blunt restatement of the superiority of the privileged. The privileged needn't express pride in their culture when it has ascended to define 'objectivity' and 'neutrality'.

There's a double standard, it's a fact.

If it's a 'fact', it's a fact so oversimplified as to be misleading.

You believe the same with native american history?

Of course. It's a fucking travesty that the largest genocide in recent history has been white-washed out of common knowledge.

So, I'm supposed to not be proud of being southern, because some people owned slaves 150 years ago?

Why should people take pride in arbitrary circumstances of birth, like race or region?
Besides, I don't think that you're particularly repressed here, as illustrated by the proliferation of Confederate flags.

ebola

 

[KStoner6tb]

Why should people take pride in arbitrary circumstances of birth, like race or region?

Didn't you just partially define the word culture? Oh yah, only non-caucasions are allowed to be proud of that stuff

Besides, I don't think that you're particularly repressed here, as illustrated by the proliferation of Confederate flags.

ebola

Not everyone that sees that flag, automatically pictures racism. It's also known as a "rebel" flag. Just rebelling from the norm, being your own person. It dosen't mean you hate anyone. Once again, it is what you make of it.

 

[ebola?]

Didn't you just partially define the word culture? Oh yah, only non-caucasions are allowed to be proud of that stuff

Did you give any attention to my discussion of white pride vs. black power?

Not everyone that sees that flag, automatically pictures racism. It's also known as a "rebel" flag. Just rebelling from the norm, being your own person. It dosen't mean you hate anyone. Once again, it is what you make of it.

Then why point to a mobilization led by wealthy plantation-owners working in opposition to changes in the economy and polity during the dusk of slavery? If it's about independence and freedom, why not fly the black and red?

ebola