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lets list disproofs, or proofs, of a god.

A

Antecessor

Ex-Bluelighter
Joined
Jul 5, 2010
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Ill start with a disproof, please follow my example when replying with your own disproofs, or aha 'proofs'.

Fact: A god must be omnipotent to be a real god.
1. Can god do anything?
Yes? Read question 2
No?
Then he is not a god.
2. Can god create a stone too heavy to lift?
No? Then he cannot do anything and so is not a god.
Yes? Then he cannot lift the rock, cannot do anything, and so is not a god.

Conclusion, god cannot exist.
 
Religion has nothing to do with godproofs. They are philosophical parasites on faith. Faith shouldn't be justified rationally, its essence is non-rational.
 
human logic has no bearing on the existence of a higher power.

that "dispoof" disproves nothing.
 
Hmm two people saying that god cannot be evidenced by reasoning, question, how does one human come to a position without using reasoning to reason for that position.

Btw removal of reason is generally a symptom of delusion and insanity.
 
Antecessor said:
Btw removal of reason is generally a symptom of delusion and insanity.
Click to expand...
So you're implying that love is a symptom of delusion and insanity too? You can't justify love or rationally explain it. Do you really need rational motives in order to love your partner? Or do you feel the need to (dis)proof that your partner loves you? Is the binary answer (yes/no) to that question the essence of what love is about?
 
God is the most perfect form there is, therefore if god only existed in imagination it would be possible to have something more perfect,an actually existing god.By definitiion god must exist.

Ahh, you gotta love neo-platonic ontology.
 
Antecessor said:
Ill start with a disproof, please follow my example when replying with your own disproofs, or aha 'proofs'.

Fact: A god must be omnipotent to be a real god.
1. Can god do anything?
Yes? Read question 2
No?
Then he is not a god.
2. Can god create a stone too heavy to lift?
No? Then he cannot do anything and so is not a god.
Yes? Then he cannot lift the rock, cannot do anything, and so is not a god.

Conclusion, god cannot exist.
Click to expand...
I am atheist but this makes no sense.
By definition, God is infinitely powerful. What you're trying to do is show that God is less or more powerful than himself; in another words, you're looking for an infinite more infinite than the infinite.

JJ-180 said:
God is the most perfect form there is, therefore if god only existed in imagination it would be possible to have something more perfect,an actually existing god.By definitiion god must exist.

Ahh, you gotta love neo-platonic ontology.
Click to expand...
It's not valid too. I could imagine a perfect cake in the kitchen but the cake would not exist just because of my concept or imagination. We all imagine "perfect worlds" but they do not exist. At least, when we are sober.

About the problem of the "removal of reason", it is quite simple. We don't need reason to feel love because we don't need reason to feel anything. Since "love", or "pain" are internal feelings, we can't be wrong about them. But God, as defined, is an external being and we have to use our perception and our reason to know if he exists, or not exists.
 
eLeSaH said:
Through experience.
Click to expand...
experience can lead me to worship banana trees. it's not enough. experience just as easily leads a human toward god as it does toward allah, or bhudda, or atheism.

fyi, i am fortunate enough to have (sometimes frequently) spiritual experiences.
 
qwe said:
experience can lead me to worship banana trees. it's not enough. experience just as easily leads a human toward god as it does toward allah, or bhudda, or atheism.

fyi, i am fortunate enough to have (sometimes frequently) spiritual experiences.
Click to expand...

Yup, that's the deal. We don't know what it is or what goes on but we know that something is there. Something which people tried to describe for thounsands of years. If you are christian or muslim you will see god/allah. If you are a buddhist, you will see yourself etc etc. Indescribable things are hard to describe :P
 
qwe said:
experience can lead me to worship banana trees. it's not enough. experience just as easily leads a human toward god as it does toward allah, or bhudda, or atheism.

fyi, i am fortunate enough to have (sometimes frequently) spiritual experiences.
Click to expand...
Of course experience is important but ilusions are common, and our perception is not perfect.
 
But it seems that people see what they are, as if spirituality was a mirror.
Click to expand...
we see what we are conditioned to see (our upbringing). in the west, we have a "serious" god, to be respected. that's who we tied the spiritual experience to, unfortunately.

i'm not saying there's not "something out there". i think there is. i don't see how a purely mechanicistic universe as-we-know-it could yield consciousness.

but to fit that "something else" into any ideology is dangerous.
 
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Firstly, a lot of gods in religions are not omnipotent, but they are still gods/God &/or the most powerful entity or entities in the all existence, but let's look at your omnipotence paradox reference.

Antecessor said:
2. Can god create a stone too heavy to lift?
No? Then he cannot do anything and so is not a god.
Yes? Then he cannot lift the rock, cannot do anything, and so is not a god.

Conclusion, god cannot exist.
Click to expand...

Scholastics solved this hundreds of years ago, (and others likely prior) God cannot be his own object because God is "pure act"; therefore God does not exist as an objectification, neither materially nor abstractly; God, of course, is spiritual solely. At least the portion of God that is 'omnipotent'. Compare the "kenosis" line of Christian teleology or the Jewish belief in God as the "ain soph".
 
qwe said:
experience can lead me to worship banana trees. it's not enough.
Click to expand...

Would nothing be enough? :)

I'd imagine the experience of divinity or god to be the experience of "no-thing" which is also paradoxically "everything", and your perspective colors this.
 
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There exist Holy Books that have the word of God in them.
They are necessarily true because they are the word of God.
They say that God exists.
God exists.


... but which holy books do we listen to? Each one says that they are only the right one... so.. what?

Also to OP, i think a better omnipotent paradox question would be "Could God create a being more powerful than himself?" That's a pretty heavy question.
Also if God is so powerful how is he able to be rendered into paradox through simple human logic?


Is god Omniscient?
Yes. He is God. That's in his definition.
So God knows what he is going to do before he does it, yeah?
So God has to do that one thing or else he didn't know what he was going to do and therefore he doesn't know everything and is not God.
God has no free will if his existence is pre determined in that way.

Where did God come from?

It could be said that we only take actions to achieve our own sense of personal perfection.
God is already perfect, because he is God.
Why would God take any action at all? Especially since he knows exactly what is going to happen before it happens. There is no surprise in his existence.

That's a pretty shitty existence.
How long did God exist before he created the universe? What was he doing then? Thinking about creating the universe? He already knew he was going to do it and what was going to happen.

The idea of God is so ridiculous.
 
The idea of God is so ridiculous.
Click to expand...

1. What is this God?
2. Isn't the point of the concept to link to a referent beyond the capacity of ideas to encompass it? Shouldn't the idea of God be ridiculous?

ebola
 
im sorry.
the idea of the Christian God is ridiculous.
The idea of any of the Gods humanity invented are ridiculous, and flawed, as are all human creations.

if there was a supreme creator, you couldn't define it in words. but we gave words to those gods, such as omnipotent and omniscient, which are paradoxical in their own definition. so no god as described by man can exist.
 
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