• Philosophy and Spirituality
    Welcome Guest
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
    Threads of Note Socialize
  • P&S Moderators: JackARoe | Cheshire_Kat

lets list disproofs, or proofs, of a god.

yeah ive being a big mckenna fan for a long time

he would say that the world is made out of language
personally is would say that the world IS language

I would say the world is made out of atoms, and words are just the symbols we use to represent ideas.

and to whoever said experience is proof, what about the fact that personal experiences are not actually proof of anything? For instance, someone can personally experience their own alien abduction, or can experience bugs crawling under their skin. Sure, it is true for those people, but the first one was probably a nightmare and the second one was PCP. So it ends up not actually being proof of.. anything; especially the truth.
 
but atoms are made of language, thats the idea, it aint language in the sense of speaking french or speaking english, its the meaning behind language, like computer language is : 10100101010101 and it creates all this virtual reality using only 2 thing, just like daoism is about yin and yang as the underlying language of the universe
 
I think that god as we know it is not real or possible. I just look at how big the universe is how many galaxies there are and worm holes and black holes and suns and planets and DNA isn't that complicated, some day we will unlock it. Some day we will have more power to create then even "god" We will be god in a sense. I dunno it seems impossible to me when you look at the vastness of everything. I think we may of been put here by a higher being or created in some way shape or form but I don't think it was by some magic man in the sky. I think the bible is just a bunch of storys to keep people in power. Its always been used to control people and always will be. God allowed hitler? stalin? God allowed 911 he will allow us this power of DNA? of Nukes? naa were are own gods
 
im not sure why you say that god would care about hilter n stuff, god didnt allowed it to happen, humans did
but sure god could have intervene
but why would the guy who decided to commit a act of genocide over everything that ever lives on earth care about details like hitler ?
i mean he created a flood that killed EVERYTHING on earth, everything he himself had created
he didnt made it disappear to start anew, he fucking drown everything and everyone
except of course for noah and his ark...
if that aint a typical trait of a psychopath i dont know what is...
all because he was "saddened at the wickedness of mankind" well that sure makes me sadden at the wickedness of god
and if god indeed created us in his image well it makes perfect sense why we end up with people like stalin, hitler, mao and the likes

anyway you started this by saying "god as we know it" and im not sure what you mean by that ?
 
god isnt a he or she or anythng inbetween... he is just a filler word when talking about god.
god is the development of how everything came to be and how everything will come to be...
so god allowed everything to happen, god created hitler, god flooded the world, god created hate, god created love. god intervenes in everything. god was never created, god just apeard as the universe began to develop...
 
I think the idea of a God who takes a personal interest in people lives and cares for them started dying in the 19th century. The 20th century was the century that truly killed it. With things like the Holocaust and Rwanda how can anybody truly believe in a God that is all loving and all powerful?

This is the essential problem of evil. The Greek philosopher Epicurus put it quite neatly in this paradox.

"If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.
If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.
If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?
If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?"

Have any of you guys heard of Elie Wiesel? He is a Holocaust survivor who wrote a book called Night about his experiences at Auschwitz. There is one part of the book that is particularly heart wrenching to me and has always stuck with me. This 10 year old kid was caught by the SS guards trying to escape. The SS guards decided to hang him in front of the entire camp as an example to the others. The truly horrible part was that the kid was not heavy enough for the rope to break his neck and instantly kill him. Instead the kid strangled for nearly a half hour struggling for breath before he finally gave up and died. During this 30 minutes a man next to Elie asked "Where is God? Why isn't he helping him?" To which Elie responded "God? He is up there dying on the gallows."

And to speak from personal experience. I was raised as a Christian. I went to a private Christian School. One summer when I was 11 my parents decided to take me to China to see the old country. (they were born there I was born and raised in the States) Anyway on our trip we visited the city of Nanking. There was an archeological dig in the middle of the city digging up remains of the victims of the Nanking massacre which took place when the Japanese invaded China during World War II. It was open to the public as it was behind the Chinese equivalent of a Holocaust museum. I walked in not expecting what I saw. Piles of skeletal remains that were taller than I was at the time. I will never forget looking down and seeing a skull that looked smaller than the rest and instantly realizing that it was the skull of a child. I remember looking through one of the eye sockets and seeing a hole in the back of the skull the size of about a quarter. I thought how could God let this happen? How could Jesus let these people die like this? If something like that happened to me or my little brother would God save us? Pretty fucked up thoughts to have when you are only 11.

Needless to say I am a little traumatized from what I saw that day. But I'm glad I saw it. Because I lost my faith that day. I lost faith in something that doesn't deserve faith in the first place. An irrational rationalization of a world in which we are truly alone.

Man has qualities that are immeasurable. These qualities come from us, people, not from some entity off in some far away lah lah land that looks down upon us with indifference. And man has a dark side as well born from evolution, and a world that demanded that we be equal parts cunning and ruthless when the occasion calls for it. But unleashed without limits this dark side could consume us and the world we live in.

Therefore it is mankind's duty and obligation to uphold our own self chosen 'goods'. Of beauty, and truth, and honor. Of life, and love, and liberty and respect for all things. For in the end we are all brothers without a father. Let us all the more for that behave brotherly to each other.
 
cool post :)
but we do have a father, its called the sun, abramic beliefs have roots in egypt and their sun god, you dont need proof that the sun is real, we can experience it most any day
and it aint because we created monsters and angels out of natural phenomenon that the underlying symbolism behind any religion is lost simply because people have lost what it all meant in its original context, it aint because its being used and abused that it completely lost its value, most people who survive atrocities dont loose belief in their god even tho some do, why is that ? its because there is still something in there that worked for them, there is a light in there that keeps them strong

and when im saying we do have a father well we do have a mother too, its called the earth, people are reconnecting with the earth, they are coming back down to earth, they arent looking up in the sky like they use too because we are loosing our predominately male dominant hierarchy, god is seen as male, its the male ego and we personified the sun as a male character with male value, but god is nothing without the earth, or as james brown would put it :
"This is a man's world, this is a man's world
But it wouldn't be nothing, nothing without a woman or a girl"

we have being going back to more feminine value, things like wars (up to the level of world wars), commerce (up to the level of international commerce) bringing forth different influence from different cultures with different way of thinking including different beliefs systems all destabilizing the status quo on which the ego reenforce itself, things like agricultural problem leading to famine and death due to misunderstanding of the earth which brought forth notion of the ecosystem and those ecologic movement...
lots of things brought us back to reconnecting with the earth, with mother earth

all im saying is that imo we ended up in our head because of evolution, we ended up with pretty cool brain and that in conjunction to a pretty evolve tongue and opposable thumbs made us able to go all crazy with culture
but that culture was dominated by male because male are more cerebral while female are more emotional because they are connected to their menstrual cycle
males can more easily disconnect themself emotionally and go hunting and eventually go wadge wars while the females are taking care of babies and kids and the old and the sick, females dealt with the inside of the tribe while males dealt with the outside of the tribe
but in a situation where males are closer to their brain due to being more cerebral and their human brain being their evolutionary advantage and having for the most part only men having a education and treating females as property well then you end up with a unbalance culture that is male dominated and a beliefs systems that represent that, you end up with a all powerful male ego god that seeks dominance over all but really all he wants is a big hug...

the sun needs no hug or offering, we have science to understand natural phenomenon now a days, and we are starting to take care of the earth because if we dont we are all gonna go extinct, and this is a huge shift from where we came from
we are balancing male with female energy

god is something real to people who believe in "him" because its a experience
just like the sun, you dont need science to tell you if its real or not
but if you say god is the light as jesus would say then it aint about the sun or the stars, its simply the light and the light is energy and its all around
unless we talk about dark matter i guess...
but here on earth as conscious being with a animal body we can experience god by connecting with that light within us, as jesus said : the kingdom of god is within
so what kind of light is this ? its the light of the sun that gave birth to it all and its in you, its energy, it comes from what we eat
but you really dont have to call it god,
to me god is a feeling, a quality of feeling, a quality of connection to it all,
if you can really connect to the energy that is all around youll feel the love, the compassion and all that, simply because its all about energy, we kill each other for resources which are all about energies, be it love, oil, food, water, money...
we need stuff to survive, we need whats inside that stuff, we need energy
and god is the energy source, and if you can tap into that then there is no need for wars and all that, there is no fear in lacking of something we need
and people wants to connect to that, they want that feeling, they want that quality of feeling, they want to hold on to it, they want to hold on to a god

but you cant hold the light, you cant hold god, but you can hold on to tradition, to beliefs, to religion, to some old book, to whatever connects you with that feeling of the light
and you may end up creating a lot of bad around you for your own personal good
but that doesnt mean that whats behind the idea of god isnt real, or that it isnt worth something

there is something behind the idea of god, it came from somewhere, and we are in a relation with that something, and we do need to balance it with whats around us including whos around us or else yes we do end up doing it wrong

as we are shifting our collective ego toward a more well balanced identity where male and female, blacks and whites, old and young, gays and straights....are all going towards enjoying equal rights well so will god, father god's opinion isnt gonna be anymore important that mother earths opinion
we are of the earth as much as of the sun, we have being droplets of water going up and down between the two for billions of years to get to where we are now, and even tho we are trying to reach the sun, even tho we are trying to reach god's energy in the sky, well we always come back to earth to rest some before doing it again, if we would have reach the sun billions year ago we would never have become what we are now (for better or worse i guess)
but we are ourself, and at some point humanity needs to leave the innocence of childhood behind and start to think for itself, we need to stop projecting our ego all over the place and stop believing that we are more right than we may be wrong (i understand the irony here since im doing just that)
we need to start enjoying the moment without guiding ourself from the past, without looking into the future, but then how the fuck does that make sense...
 
^^^ I would have to respectfully disagree with some of your arguments however tantalizing they may be. In truth even though I am an atheist I still have a spiritual longing. A weakness for the idea of God. For that reason when people ask me whether or not I am an atheist I always answer with what Thomas Huxley would have said. That the only truly honest and intelligent position a man can take is that of an agnostic. For man can never truly prove beyond a shadow of a doubt the existence or absence of a God.

That being said however I think it was Jean Paul Sartre who once said that "Even if there was a God, it would be necessary for us to destroy him." The idea of God is a distraction. A hindrance to our development as a species and unless we are free of this intolerable idea we will be stuck and cease to mature. You touched upon this yourself in your post albeit in a different way.

but we are ourself, and at some point humanity needs to leave the innocence of childhood behind and start to think for itself, we need to stop projecting our ego all over the place and stop believing that we are more right than we may be wrong (i understand the irony here since im doing just that)

Which leads me to your discussion of our ego. Personally I think the ego is one of the reasons some of us believe there is a God in the first place. We as a species can be so self absorbed sometimes that we fail to see that this universe is utterly indifferent to us. So we manufacture these intricate fantasies in which to relieve ourselves of the burden of that thought process. As I said before God is an irrational rationalization of this world. It is an unfortunate by product of mans evolution. It grew mainly out of our early ignorance of this world and its workings and matured into a idea of where we go after death. You mentioned the Abrahamic religions as being based on the sun. This is true. But does that give merit to its continued worship? No. Should I believe in Zeus and his power over lightning? Or give credence to the belief of Vulcan and his power over volcanoes? No. These are mythologies nothing more. And just like these age old mythologies Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are all pretty much irrelevant in this day and age. They are outmoded codifications of law and belief that need to be dropped like a bad habit. The morality that so called Christian values impose on society (some of which are okay) are values that man has developed on its own.

Furthermore there is one point I particularly disagree with you on.

most people who survive atrocities dont loose belief in their god even tho some do, why is that ? its because there is still something in there that worked for them, there is a light in there that keeps them strong

Although this is debatable and nearly impossible to prove I will speak from personal experience once again. I've had the pleasure of meeting 2 Holocaust survivors in my lifetime. Neither of them believed in God anymore. And when I asked them if they knew of any other survivors who still had faith they both said no and that God had died within them. On the other hand I used to work with a guy from Liberia. Before he came to the states he was recruited to be a child soldier and had to endure many hardships before he escaped and became a refugee. The funny thing is with these 2 groups of people they had a nearly completely opposite experience. The 2 Holocaust survivors were devout believers before they were sent to concentration camps. While my friend from Liberia found faith after he had gone through his horrific experience. This has lead me to a rather perplexing conclusion. And that is if you go into a horrific experience like the Holocaust or something like that with faith you will lose it. If you experience an atrocity without faith you will find it. It is a curious thing that I have no explanation for but I think it has something to do with the extremity of their experience. It pushed away their former belief system and replaced it with another.

Excuse me I must contemplate this. I will continue this conversation after you have replied.
 
Top