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Leftist Discussion Thread

spacejunk said:
Perhaps 'society' has degenerated past a point of no return?

Seems like a fair description of the state of politics in January 2017 to me.



I mean - really - it's come to this?
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I am feeling this more and more lately. Hippy blather incoming - Humanity had a good run (more or less) but the whole machine is just falling apart now. We don't treat this planet, other living beings or each other, with enough respect, blithely blundering along in massive trails of death and destruction because we feel we've some god-given right to existence, that everything on this planet is ours to use and abuse as we see fit? Now I don't believe in a higher power or karma (beyond a very science-y view of action equals opposite reaction kind of balance) but should the universe decide to wipe us off the slate because of our general inability to not be a cunt of a species, I'd have to say fair call.
 
There's a difference between a multi ethnic society and a multicultural society. The former can work, the later is fraught with conflict and never works. Always has been that way.

The most peaceful and safest societies are homogeneous, non hispanic white or asian majorities. Switzerland, South Korea, Japan, Iceland, Scandinavia before the migrant crisis.
 
Droppersneck said:
I can respect that. Yep the environment is important to me as well which is one reason why trump isn't the ideal candidate. I see it as we sacrifice certain things to gain a strong economy once again.
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Climate change will have a massive economic effect, so protecting the environment IS an economic decision.

Given that Trump doesn't seem to pay taxes, what makes you really think he understands what a strong economy is? In a strong economy, everyone contributes, not just the powerless and poor. Perhaps he should make all citizens contribute equally rather than ignore the urgency of climate change as a way to strengthen the economy.
 
swilow said:
Climate change will have a massive economic effect, so protecting the environment IS an economic decision.

Given that Trump doesn't seem to pay taxes, what makes you really think he understands what a strong economy is? In a strong economy, everyone contributes, not just the powerless and poor. Perhaps he should make all citizens contribute equally rather than ignore the urgency of climate change as a way to strengthen the economy.
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Much good words here... but the economy IS imaginary, the environment IS NOT (unless you can hold the matrix theory in your head). I would suggest we willingly sacrifice our imaginary economy to save our real world.

It's a cart/horse thing but our cart is just fiction we have gotten used to.
 
Yes, true... I think the environment is more important than the economy. But I'm not in the majority.

I understand what you say about the economy being "imaginary" but that doesn't alter its very real effects. Rather than imaginary, I would say its an emergent property of money and global markets. Ideally, we wouldn't be in thrall to such a system, but we are. The economy is a chaotic system, similar to the weather but different in that predictions made about it effect its functioning. Its balanced on a knife edge, constantly and is as fickle as its creators. Its not a genie we can rebottle without causing massive unpredictable upheaval.
 
swilow said:
Yes, true... I think the environment is more important than the economy. But I'm not in the majority.

I understand what you say about the economy being "imaginary" but that doesn't alter its very real effects. Rather than imaginary, I would say its an emergent property of money and global markets. Ideally, we wouldn't be in thrall to such a system, but we are. The economy is a chaotic system, similar to the weather but different in that predictions made about it effect its functioning. Its balanced on a knife edge, constantly and is as fickle as its creators. Its not a genie we can rebottle without causing massive unpredictable upheaval.
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Absolutely, this genie could sink us if we leave it out and may sink us while we bottle it up.

We need to talk about it now though. Our world shrunk faster than we expected and we are burning our resources quickly to keep the machine oiled. Removing money individually but keeping it as a means between countries to provide competetative countries can work for a time but eventually one country will be the winner again and we will have to dance on the edge of this razor.

What is happening is obvious. Society gets lopsided via ideologies or uneven resources or war and "have nots" find a way to rise up and take from the "haves". Resulting in more war til we have some event that brings sanity back. In the past, people lose the will for war after a few years and slowly it stops. Religious wars without breaks for education can last forever. Look where we spent all recorded history for an example. Sure we've had economic wars but the real long dirty ones all had God on at least one if not both sides. To stop these we must show both sides how God isn't ever on your side in war, we will need to use their texts to prove it to them. Luckily religious texts can be translated to mean anything but the "Why does God need a starship" question is a good place to start.

Keep these questions relevant and common. Just like I will always point at money and suggest we are wasting more money playing with money than we are making doing real work. Most people will dismiss my comments since they are not instantly visible but slowly people will realize we can change how money works and we can make it work better or even replace it.

We don't need to kill the rich and take their fake zeros. The world has enough of everything. If we dismissed money tomorrow but kept working, what would happen in your life?
 
We've discussed this before. I simply don't think abolishing money will work to reduce resource disparity. Humans evolved to accrue resources, we will always do this regardless of utility. Some parts of the world are mor resource rich than others. There will always be something with 'objective' value to relate resources to. Be it shells, gold, digits or coins. This actually allows people access to resources that they normally wouldn't.

I don't think money is the problem but how we use it is. Money can actually liberate people from lives of lack and drudgery. Its excess capitalism that has gone wrong IMO.

How would you implement this? You would need global agreement which will not happen, or imposition which is a backwards step. I think the idea is too farfetched to really entertain despite the inherent appeal. I dislike money, I don't understand people who are driven to accumulate it, I support redistribution of wealth but I don't see the feasibility in abolishing it.
 
Yourbaker said:
we can make it work better or even replace it.
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money, as an abstract holder of value allowing an upgrade from simple bartering, can only be replaced with another form of money. so long as things hold value and the concept of "debt" exists (including the debt owed to you when you perform labor for someone) and everyone isn't 100% selfless and altruistic, there will always be a need for money or bartering.
 
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You are correct that the problem is how we use it.

The problem will always be people. There will always be a % of our population that is greedy. We must always have a personally attainable goal, so many things we need to work into an economy to keep us motivated to work.

Realizing exactly what an economy must do to work and what people want for motivation has been traditionally done by a small group of leaders representing us in various ways, ballots or chains. What if we decided what we really needed to function? Could we envision a simpler system? The labour force currently working the giant MMO-economy is too big, they provide zero to our lives unless you live on stress.

Youth have no vision of a future because, those with all the money don't need any work right now, so our next generation will have to play shoot the senior to survive.

We made money to keep lazy people working. Now lazy people just work with money. Meanwhile the farming community continue to go bankrupt and lose everything to corporations. The corporations care very little for the quality of food we get as long as money is earned. Governments allow cost cutting measures that further reduce our health. None of this is necessary, since every dollar saved is fictional. Money is a marker for labour nothing more. All other tasks we put it to are fictional.

Looking for new ways to account for labour that don't require measuring to the decimal place and accounting for every transaction is a starting point. The less time we watch money the more time we have to provide actual work. Unhinging loans and interest would stop inflation but eliminate all money driven portions of the economy. We would need huge amounts of cash or we would need to provide a new way of obtaining resources.

I see dozens of huge problems but right now the world has a few that may be bigger. I see this as a last minute idea it could go horribly wrong but someone elected Trump, let's start looking at crazy eddy escape plans. Hopefully, I just look stupid and Trump makes everything great again.
 
spacejunk said:
Can't be bothered debating, huh?

That's a very simplistic definition of fascism and description of Marxism.

Antifa are doing a great job of making racists afraid again.
People that are emboldened by the aggressive racist rhetoric of smug clowns like Richard Spencer are still - for the most part - afraid to actually reveal their faces, instead hiding behind pseudonymous, vitriolic posts online.

Spencer got a taste of anti-fascist action on inaugeration day, which sent a message to every other two-bit segregationist looking to make a name for himself (most of these far-right goons are male) - say these vile things publicly, and you are putting your physical safety on the line.
As it should be.

I'm not interested in justifying anti-fascism to anyone - it's elementary to anyone that understands resisting racism, bigotry, intollerance.

You cannot reason with unreasonable people.
So we resist them with force.
You don't debate neo-nazis or fascists.

There is no use in legitimising fascist politics by attempting to engage it in discourse. It is not ok, and that is why all efforts to push fascism into mainstream acceptance is being met with strong opposition.

With the exposure given to the glorious smack in the head (sorry - two smacks in the head) mister hitler hair-do got on Jan 20th, i hope that other nazi hipsters (nipsters) think twice before spouting fascist bile in public.
It's not ok, will never be ok - and i'm really proud of people who take the fight - literally - to this latest crop of fascists.

If debate worked - it would be the tactic anti-fascists would use.
But we have a century of experience with these sorts of thuggish demagogues - and the only way to resist them is to do so as forcefully as possible.

"The left" engages in "toxic identity politics"?

That's actually pretty funny, given that you are lending your support to a gasbag who spent his entire campaign blaming various groups of people (migrants, muslims, refugees, women) for the woes of his country.

Trump's "got a spine"?
Give me a break!
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Simplistic? Care to point out where it falls short? But let me guess, you wish to assign the label of fascist to anyone who disagrees with your far left rhetoric?

You sound like you're fan girling out pretty hard over the Antifa thugs who attacked spencer, and you didn't address the point I put to you about their tactics being fascist themselves.

Look, Richard spencer is a jackass, I don't condone what he has to say but he has a right to say it without fear of physical assault. Obviously we differ in that regard.

But take note of the fact that engaging fascists in open debate is far more effective than just physically attacking them and trying to silence them. Attacking people and trying to prevent them speaking is only going to steer discourse into an uglier direction, which is already happening unfortunately.

Look, you seem to be fairly intelligent but I can tell you've fallen into the typical regressive left trap of calling everyone a fascist, racist etc and failing to recognise that Islam is the number one threat to our lifestyle today.

I can literally tell what kind of a guy you (probably) are. You probably live in inner city Melbourne, late 20s early 30s, work in academia, probably have a ton of gay friends, smoke weed, drink beer, poly drug user etc etc

Do you really think your lifestyle can continue unmolested once Muslims gain a political foothold in this country? It sounds crazy now, but with their high birth rates and high levels of immigration, the day WILL come when we have Muslim MPs in parliament lobbying for all kinds of sharia-esque laws to be passed, they already self-regulate over matters of contract and family law. And conduct child marriages, etc etc

And no it's not a tiny minority that do this. It's heaps. And most of them are decent enough guys to chat with and aren't monsters. But they envision a society that isn't truly free.

I'm probably closer to you politically than you think. From a family who were all union members and never voted for anyone but labour. I think communism is a great idea in theory but it's proven to never work. I am all for gay rights, women's rights, grew up with immigrants, (many Muslims) etc

I was of the left but have disavowed that whole side of politics because of their ridiculous double standards when it comes to Islam. It's the biggest threat to our way of life today bar none (except maybe climate change)
 
Yourbaker said:
let's start looking at crazy eddy escape plans.
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Respect for the mote in god's eye reference, top book that one.

It's true that we have that drive to accumulate wealth/resources, originally to ensure the survival of ourselves and our own offspring - a means to an end. Somewhere along the way the accumulation became the end in and of itself. It's not to procure shelter or food or water, it's to see the numbers on a balance sheet increase. When you think about it, it's an utterly insane corruption of the original idea. The cult of individualism and neoliberal economics are an utterly toxic combination at every level and I don't think we've seen the worst of the havoc it can and will wreak.
 
Yourbaker said:
Why do you only list Islam? Why do you allow Judaism? Both require killing those around them if offending their God. Even the books swapped into the bible from Judaism support these death to the unbeliever commands. Perhaps a better education renders radical views obsolete? Certainly oppression makes them real and powerful. As always, during a crisis humanity is doing exactly the worst thing we could do. During the black plague they killed cats. Yay stupidity!

The media have painted a picture for you that has made you afraid of a specific group. You should fear them if you are truly responsible for the meddling in their world. I see the fear in America, in so many posts here. There is an underlying theme of guilt because the American population did not stop their oil and financial sectors from abusing the world. Because you didn't see it, and life was good, why stop them from "aquiring" wealth?

I do not see the American public as the guilty party. You need to bring this up constantly because your enemy has painted you all with a single brush. The financial sectors were directly to blame since money is truly America's God and they followed the money into a bees nest. However, the enemy they awoke is pointing at the American people.

Where is the investigative journalism that should have this on CNN and point out the guilty parties? Your media are not investigating anything anymore. I haven't seen real news in ages. Money is controlling your media and it's probably the same money that was being made off your enemy.

The people that brought this to you will take the money and leave. They have placed the blame on America and made you fear an enemy, getting you worked up so you will fantasize the enemy around you. You will begin mistreating specific religious groups who all have a book that says to kill you when you do this. The media have placed a gun in your hands and all you need to do is pull the trigger. So you elected Donald Trump.

America is being made a patsy for a fall. Americans are considered loud and annoying over a large part of the world but their capitalism has profited them, it's shiny surface has attracted the greedy from all over the world. How can the world tell which Americans just want a safe happy life and which are specifically drawn to America by greed and the lure of capitalism?

I've tried to explain this bogged down in religious terms because your current enemy sees capitalism as your religion, money is your God. The people who took advantage of his homeland worshipped money so much they were willing to spill blood for it. They are steeped in tradition, spilling blood for religious reasons they truly excel at. In the eyes of your enemy, you are all guilty and it will last forever. Now, instead of hiding under a blanket of lock downs and boot heels, solve this problem.

You can repress and oppress religions if you wish them to grow. To kill a religion you must expose the root. I think there are still people worshipping Odin, good luck with stamping out religions.

The only solution is an embrace of love and peace. While rebuilding their world go and find those guilty for profiting off them underhandedly. And while your generosity and love have them looking the other way provide education. Help take this belief out of religion. Show them how to live united and stable, if America can do that. Show them that their god is so small he has to get humans to kill for him and so poor he must instruct his followers to kill and rob others as he cannot provide. It's a huge order. I see a clear path through this for America, it is not the path you are on.
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This post shows your unbelievable disconnect from reality.

Yes there is atrocious stuff in the Bible, but how many Jews interpret it literally? Any Jews gone on massacres of non-Jews lately? Judaism has maybe 20 million adherents worldwide. Islam 1.6 billion. Even if there were Jews going around butchering people quoting the Old Testament it wouldn't be anywhere near the problem that Islam is.

Show them love? Are you kidding me? Muslims have been welcomed with open arms in western countries. Sure, a small minority of bigots never liked them, but the majority of people had no issue with Muslims. And look how they have repaid western societies. With crime, rape, terrorist attacks, a concerted effort to subvert the state. Look at their overrepresentation in prison systems. Man you are off in your own world.

And with regard to your point about the media making me believe this, it's the complete and utter opposite. Most media besides Fox News (ABC, CNN, CBS, NYT, WP, BBC) frantically tried to deny the link between Islam and terror, and smears people who state the obvious as rascists.

Man I'm on my phone so that's all I can be stuffed writing but jeez, you honestly need to Get real

Just one last thing: I'm not some backyard bigot. I hate racism, I grew up with more non-White friends than white ones, I arrived at these opinions after research and life experience
 
Antifa? Don't make me laugh. Bunch of puffs femenists and hippies.
2 demonstrations I seen on TV and the worst I saw was a litter bin get pushed over and rolled into the road.
The other I saw a woman holding a banner saying "better rapists than racists" Id agree if it was that stupid bitch being raped but it wouldn't be. So she should keep that nonsence to herself.
 
Also spacejunk. Re: not being able to reason with unreasonable people, thus justifying attacking them; you do realise that you are then providing justification for yourself being attacked, because there are certainly plenty on the right who would find you unreasonable, because it's of course a subjective thing.

Not so nice when you think of yourself being attacked for your views is it? Everyone deserves the right to speak freely and the laws protection (although I know you didn't explicitly dispute the fact that what Antifa did to spencer was illegal)

Spencer is repugnant. But it is far better to expose him in debate and show him as the idiot he is, rather than stoop lower than him by sucker punching him. I mean he was talking to the camera and got sucker punched. If he was yelling abuse at people or being physical himself it is different.
 
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