• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio

Lab ether

Adrenochrome

Ex-Bluelighter
Joined
Dec 3, 2004
Messages
979
(Mods, you'll probably need to move this one, but I wanted it to get a little attention from the real geniuses on bluelight before it got sent to junky central/other drugs)
I have a orgo lab tomarrow and we're doing an extraction using Et2O (among other things), I know never to drink the EtOH in labs because it commonaly contain an adequate unsafe % of MeOH or Ph-H.
 
I doubt there's much of either in lab ether. Where would it come from?

The problem is the ether itself, if you're talking about consuming it as a drug. Better to save some (if you have a safe place to store it) as a solvent. It can't be beat for freebasing coke, pulling crank oil, or numerous other dope related apps.

Don't drink any alcohol that doesn't have a tax stamp on it. And, best stay away from the 200 pf - that's the one with the benzene traces in it...though, I once drank some, and somw 25 years later haven't gotten leukemia yet.
 
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Um, I don't want to seem rude, but I don't understand what you are asking. Do you want info on diethyl ether, and/or denatured ethanol? Are you asking about using these chemicals in organic extractions, or about how to get high in your lab? Or am I just missing the point entirely?
 
Pretty sure you are confusing ether and ethanol.

Ethanol is often "denatured" - a euphemism for making it poisonous to human consumption by adding MeOH, IPA, and a little Ethyl Acetate.

Ethanol is also sometimes contaminated with benzene (is this what you mean by Ph-H?) This occurs when ethanol is (partially) dried by dsitillation. EtOH forms an azeotrope with water at 95% EtOH and cannot be distilled to further purity. But distlling with addition of benzene allows removal of (most) of the additional 5% water because the ternary mixture breaks the azeotrope, allowing the benzene and the final 5% water to be removed by distillation. The process also always leaves a small amount of residual benzene.

Finally you might be referring to addition of phenolpthalein indicator to absolute (pure) ethanol. This is a very old "denaturing" process intended to prevent grad students from drinking the absolute alcohol. Not strictly poisonous, the addition of phenolpthalein caused the person consuming the ethanol to suffer rom diarhhea. (could thius also be what you mean by Ph-H?). This is uncommon now, most 95% or "dry"ethanol is nowadays denatured as described above.

All these refer to ethanol.

Typical lab grade "anhydrous" diethyl ether on the other hand usually contains some water - not by intention but rather because it is notoriously difficult to keep dry unless stored over sodium wire, LAH etc. and handled under nitrogen.

Lower grades of ether also usually contain some residual ethanol.

Finally, anhydrous diethyl ether is very prone to form explosive peroxides, so some grades are stabilized by the addition of small amounts of radical scavenger, (such as BHT - butylated hydroxytoluene) but the amounts of scavneger is extremely small - ppm.

OK so not quite finally. Thetre is also "pet ether" or "petroleum ether" which is not an ether at all but rather a mix of (depends on the BP) heptane though octane (or roughly there abouts) hydrocarbons.

Not to be a dick, but having worked in a lab with a lot of solvents, first of all "abuse" of them is not particularly worthwhile or appealing, and second of all maybe I jsut misunderstood your question, but in my opinion you really seem to be descibing EtOH ratherthan ether compositions. And even if I did misunderstand you, your question is vague and seems to be misdirected. Sorry but IMO that in itself supports my observation that you seem a little misinformed about ether in general.

Seriously, again not trying to be a dick but you really seem to me at least to be coming across as confused enough where I feel some discouragement/expression of concern is appropriate.

Why don't you just go to the lab and simply perform the experiment. I *really* think you will learn much more from that alone without exposing yourself to solvent abuse. Inhaling ether? It's just not fun, and I certailnly would not advise anyone to drink it, period. Just because Hunter Thompson glorified does not mean the reality is at all glamorous...
 
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ya sorry, my quesiton was concerning ether- if the what we're using in lab has a possilbity of having any potentially harmful adulturants added.
i was giving ethanol as an example of a chemical that has such adulturations done to it(although, from what I understand, most of the time the bad chemicals in the ethanol are a result of which synthesis was preformed)

So hopefully it's in a big reagent bottle with a label on it that says something about impurties...
but still if anyone has any info thanks
 
Trust me - I spent a lot of time in graduate labs as well as teaching undergrad labs, and am I safe to say this is an undergrad lab?

Not only can the container become contaminated from use, people in undergrad labs fuck up a lot. You are in third period say. It is a real possibility someone in second period went to get more ether, but was a dumbass and accidentally poured another reagent or a rxn mix into the container because they are unexperienced. Someone may have mistaken a waste jug under a hood for an ether can under the hood.

Think they are gonna actually tell the TA they fucked up? Trust me, I taught undergrad labs throughout my multi year grad career. People fuck up - a LOT.

Second - nowadays the docs pay steep $$$ to dispose of their waste. That comes outta their precious grant money. Suppose a waste ether can contains cyanide or tons of garbage. The profs are not stupid - they are not gonna be that irresponsible.

OTOH "excess" or "probably suitable for the undergrad labs" reagents?

It's a sad but very real circumstance. I attended a major university and saw a lot of leftover/non virgin reagents and solvents get quietly and anonymously dumped to the undergrad lab stockrooms to avoid disposal fees with the rationalization that "It;s fine for the undergrads and it is a benefit to the department".

No shit. These are real first hand experiences at a major, respected US University.

It may be perfectly fine,but the chances are also very real that what I think you are contemplating it is a really bad idea.

And the basic risk/rewards factors alone are, trust me, pretty shitty anyway.

Chances are it's harmless. Chances are very real it may not be.

Seriously, I can't implore you enough.

Don't do this, please!!!
 
So there is no recreational use for ether? Forgive my "advanced" drug knowledge noobness, cause I have none. And yes, it did peak my radar after reading Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, I would just like a definitive answer on this subject.
 
^ Yes, there is, but retired_chemist is saying that due to the likely nature of ether (Et2O) in an undergrad lab, it would be pretty dangerous (as in, more so than the danger of inhaling solvents anyway) to abuse it.
I'm first year at my university, and I can tell you that there are plenty of morons who contiminate the reagents. I'd be staying well away from them for injesting, or making anything I was going to injest.
 
Dr. Holmes [of Harvard Medical School] inhaled ether at a time when it was popularly supposed to produce mystical or 'mind-expanding' experiences, much as LSD is supposed to produce such experiences today. Here is his account of what happened:

'I once inhaled a pretty full dose of ether, with the determination to put on record, at the earliest moment of regaining consciousness, the thought I should find uppermost in my mind. The mighty music of the triumphal march into nothingness reverberated through my brain, and filled me with a sense of infinite possibilities, which made me an archangel for a moment. The veil of eternity was lifted. The one great truth which underlies all human experience and is the key to all the mysteries that philosophy has sought in vain to solve, flashed upon me in a sudden revelation. Henceforth all was clear: a few words had lifted my intelligence to the level of the knowledge of a cherubim. As my natural condition returned, I remembered my resolution; and, staggering to my desk, I wrote, in ill-shaped, straggling characters, the all-embracing truth still glimmering in my consciousness. The words were these (children may smile; the wise ponder): 'A strong smell of turpentine prevails throughout'

Oliver Wendell Holmes, Mechanism in Thought and Morals, Phi Beta Kappa address, Harvard Univeristy, June 29, 1870 (Boston: J.R. Osgood and Company, 1871).

as cited in

Licit & Illicit Drugs: The Consumers Union Report on Narcotics, Stimulants, Depressants, Inhalants, Hallucinogens & Marijuana - including Caffeine, Nicotine and Alcohol.
 
retired_chemist said:
Trust me - I spent a lot of time in graduate labs as well as teaching undergrad labs, and am I safe to say this is an undergrad lab?

Not only can the container become contaminated from use, people in undergrad labs fuck up a lot. You are in third period say. It is a real possibility someone in second period went to get more ether, but was a dumbass and accidentally poured another reagent or a rxn mix into the container because they are unexperienced. Someone may have mistaken a waste jug under a hood for an ether can under the hood.

Think they are gonna actually tell the TA they fucked up? Trust me, I taught undergrad labs throughout my multi year grad career. People fuck up - a LOT.

Second - nowadays the docs pay steep $$$ to dispose of their waste. That comes outta their precious grant money. Suppose a waste ether can contains cyanide or tons of garbage. The profs are not stupid - they are not gonna be that irresponsible.

OTOH "excess" or "probably suitable for the undergrad labs" reagents?

It's a sad but very real circumstance. I attended a major university and saw a lot of leftover/non virgin reagents and solvents get quietly and anonymously dumped to the undergrad lab stockrooms to avoid disposal fees with the rationalization that "It;s fine for the undergrads and it is a benefit to the department".

No shit. These are real first hand experiences at a major, respected US University.

It may be perfectly fine,but the chances are also very real that what I think you are contemplating it is a really bad idea.

And the basic risk/rewards factors alone are, trust me, pretty shitty anyway.

Chances are it's harmless. Chances are very real it may not be.

Seriously, I can't implore you enough.

Don't do this, please!!!

Thanks for the thoughtout and insightful post :)

I'm going to be extra cautions, only oing to take from it if it's one of those really big (8 gallon???) dark colored glass jugs with a label.
I don't think anyone would pour a reagent back in a jar like that, this isnt the lower level organic this is organic for chemists only, so hopefully no one is that stupid! but still i feel like some people in that class are dumb as hell and I can't wait to fuck up the grade curve to eliminate some of them from next semester:)


So i'm not too insistant on procuring this ether today because I know there'll be many oppertunities in the future with less risk,

one more thing, ether wouldn't dissolve plastic right (like if transported in a robotussin bottle)?

thanks a lot retired_chemist
 
"this is organic for chemists only, so hopefully no one is that stupid! but still i feel like some people in that class are dumb as hell and I can't wait to fuck up the grade curve to eliminate some of them from next semester"

At my last job I reported to a guy with a PHd in Chem, and he is just as dumb as a box of rocks.

Retired Chemist is right.

My personal opinion, based on my experience is that ether is a crappy high.

I'll reiterate that it can be handy to have around, but add the caveat: don't try to keep the anhydrous stuff, it's apt to make the peroxides that RC also mentioned, and you'll go up in a fuckin fireball.
 
The ether has landed :)
Anhydrous 2 boot, it's filling up half of a robotussin buttle (the smaller ones)

[Edit: Thanks for all the info guys, and that's for keepin this in Advanced Mods, K u can lock it up now or move it to where it belongs, drug basics]
 
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Look out for peroxides

Add a little water, it inhibits their formation.

And, a bit of ferrous sulfate solution will neutralize them, add a bit and shake it if you store it for any length of time.
 
fasteddie said:
Add a little water, it inhibits their formation.

And, a bit of ferrous sulfate solution will neutralize them, add a bit and shake it if you store it for any length of time.

merely my opinion YMMV:
If you store in the dark and do not evaporate a lot of diethyl ether on its own down to nothing, peroxides are never a problem, the formation of peroxides from air oxidation is really slow and tends to be a problem only after years and years of storage. bottles forgotten for decades at the back of chemical stores are the classic danger.
ferrous sulphate solution will remove the peroxides but it itself reacts quickly with air and makes a mess. so I'd advise not leaving ether in contact with ferrous sulphate in storage.
Much more dangerous is di-isopropyl ether which forms peroxides very quickly. Also THF and dioxane.

V
 
They were never a problem for me, and I had THF that I stored for years.

But, one never knows. Also, one has to be triply careful if one's storing these things in a residence, where they really don't belong.

Perhaps, more apropos advice: keep that little ether bottle in a metal can, with a metal cover, buried in vermiculite or perlite.
 
There must be a degrading partial differential equation for Et2O into these peroxides; hahaha no idea what it is tho
 
I have to agree with vektor that the whole ether explosion thing is a non-issue here.

I mentioned it only because the OP was asking about what diethyl ether contains, and most anhydrous grades contain a small amount of anti-oxidant to inhibit peroxide formation. The exception is chromatography grades which are not inhibited.

Ether peroxides only become a concern when a *large volume* of ether that contains peroxides is allowed to concentrate down. As vektor has said, this is mainly a problem when a large volume such as a full can of ether has been forgotten and dried down over a long period of time.

Explosives vary. TNT and such are "slow". They build large pressure differentials that result in strong shock/counter shock waves. Large destruction, large area. Ether peroxides are totally different. They are sharp, fast explosives. The technical term is "brisant". A brisant explosive has intense shattering force in a small area. Very, very dangerous to a chemist in the immediate vicinity who suffers burns glass fragments, maybe even limb loss if it were a major ether explosion. You don't bring the building down, you may burn it down though.

But ether explosions from distillations are pretty much ancient history.

The potential hazard is well known now, and any modern trained chemist knows that if a large quantity of ether needs to be distilled under anhydrous conditions immediately prior to a reaction it should be done with a proper technique. Don't know what the preferred method is these days, when I was a working chemist the standard technique was distillation under nitrogen or argon from LAH.

Ether from an immediate experiment on the other hand rarely presents a problem. Aqueous extractions by their nature remove the peroxide content. Most reactions performed in ethers typically do the same. Sure if you are using very old ether you might see side reactions, but the peroxides will almost certainly react with something. So the subsequent rotavapping down of a reaction workup (I would almost say never but I never say never) is rarely a potential problem.

Peroxides should still always be a consideration - I once was doing an LAH reduction in THF that I had to "scavenge" from another lab, something financially challenged grad students occasionally do. It was uninhibited HPLC grade THF long forgotten in the analytical lab.

I knew my solvents - very old, cyclic ether, uninhibited definitely means peroxides. I also knew my reactions, so I set things up, and very, very cautiously added extremely small amounts of LAH and as expected it reacted like crazy until the peroxides were destroyed, distilled it from a little excess LAH added after the reaction stopped, no problems.

A less cautious chemist might have just added the reaction amount of LAH and started at minimum a big fire and a possibly a face full of glass.

But for the most part, flammability, not peroxides is the primary hazard when working with ethers.

Whatever you do, but especially organic chemistry - know your tools, know your materials, know your craft.
 
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retired_chemist said:
I have to agree with vektor that the whole ether explosion thing is a non-issue here.

I mentioned it only because the OP was asking about what diethyl ether contains, and most anhydrous grades contain a small amount of anti-oxidant to inhibit peroxide formation. The exception is chromatography grades which are not inhibited.

Ether peroxides only become a concern when a *large volume* of ether that contains peroxides is allowed to concentrate down. As vektor has said, this is mainly a problem when a large volume such as a full can of ether has been forgotten and dried down over a long period of time.

Explosives vary. TNT and such are "slow". They build large pressure differentials that result in strong shock/counter shock waves. Large destruction, large area. Ether peroxides are totally different. They are sharp, fast explosives. The technical term is "brisant". A brisant explosive has intense shattering force in a small area. Very, very dangerous to a chemist in the immediate vicinity who suffers burns glass fragments, maybe even limb loss if it were a major ether explosion. You don't bring the building down, you may burn it down though.

But ether explosions from distillations are pretty much ancient history.

The potential hazard is well known now, and any modern trained chemist knows that if a large quantity of ether needs to be distilled under anhydrous conditions immediately prior to a reaction it should be done with a proper technique. Don't know what the preferred method is these days, when I was a working chemist the standard technique was distillation under nitrogen or argon from LAH.

Ether from an immediate experiment on the other hand rarely presents a problem. Aqueous extractions by their nature remove the peroxide content. Most reactions performed in ethers typically do the same. Sure if you are using very old ether you might see side reactions, but the peroxides will almost certainly react with something. So the subsequent rotavapping down of a reaction workup (I would almost say never but I never say never) is rarely a potential problem.

Peroxides should still always be a consideration - I once was doing an LAH reduction in THF that I had to "scavenge" from another lab, something financially challenged grad students occasionally do. It was uninhibited HPLC grade THF long forgotten in the analytical lab.

I knew my solvents - very old, cyclic ether, uninhibited definitely means peroxides. I also knew my reactions, so I set things up, and very, very cautiously added extremely small amounts of LAH and as expected it reacted like crazy until the peroxides were destroyed, distilled it from a little excess LAH added after the reaction stopped, no problems.

A less cautious chemist might have just added the reaction amount of LAH and started at minimum a big fire and a possibly a face full of glass.

But for the most part, flammability, not peroxides is the primary hazard when working with ethers.

Whatever you do, but especially organic chemistry - know your tools, know your materials, know your craft.

haha i learned more from this post then from this entire week in orgo chem;
hahah and im on ether right now!(well 10 min ago)
 
so is consumption of lab ether safe (as in huffing it, not drinking it)?

and does anyone know if storing it in a dark robitussin bottle is safe or not?

i know this thread is hella old, but i'm in a similar situation as the OP was, and am curious about the best way to store ether relatively safely so that i'm not walking down the stairs and suddenly my backpack ignites lol.
 
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