L-Dopa/Velvet Bean neurotoxicity

[Kudos]

I understand L-dopa is neurotoxic, but to the extent that consuming this:
http://www.nowfoods.com/Supplements.../Mental-Fitness-Sleep-Mood-Support/059991.htm

Could be considered dangerous? Is there a regimen that could be taken safely? Or is it best avoided all together like, say, meth?

 

[KillCops]

hhmm..ive never heard of this stuff. have you tried it? do you think its effects are great enough compared to other dopamine enhancers for it to be worth any neurotoxity at all?

 

[/navarone/]

Absolutely not. L-DOPA per se is just a precursor to dopamine used in the treatment of parkinsons and other similar conditions.
Obviously it all depends on the dose, some people with major depression have found L-dopa to be extremely helpfull.
Some other people with no apparent conditions have used L-DOPA as a study aid or even as a nootropic....obviously in small doses.

 

[Nagelfar]

L-dopa is naturally occurring in the brain. I have never heard of it being neurotoxic.

 

[Kudos]

If you google 'l-dopa neurotoxicity', there's a huge amount of studies and the like. For example:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/j8536372365377ut/

 

[Nagelfar]

If you google 'l-dopa neurotoxicity', there's a huge amount of studies and the like. For example:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/j8536372365377ut/

I suppose excess amount of exogenous dopamine wears on the body's own internal regulation of dopamine.

 

[Epsilon Alpha]

Well DA everywhere =/= DA in PFC or mesolimbic system so you run into a lot of issues just on that point. But, L-DOPA bypasses tyrosine hydroxylase which is the heavily regulated in the body as well as the rate limiting step which causes a ton of nasty things to happen if the doses are too high. Also DA auto-oxidation and production have the potential to unleash massive amounts of oxidative stress on the brain from what I remember from the Parkinson's lectures.

My $0.00 stick with tyrosine, coffee, and a multivitamin.

 

[Hammilton]

ah just take some selegiline and carbidopa!

and watch yourself lose control of your muscles!

 

[Epsilon Alpha]

ah just take some selegiline and carbidopa!

and watch yourself lose control of your muscles!

They see me writhing they hatin' patrollin' and try to catch me boosting DA

 

[What was it?]

How safe is selegiline? I want to take it in low dose as a motivational tool/anti-depressant for maybe a month.

 

[atrollappears]

Does anyone even know whether these L-dopa toxicity studies are relevant to human doses?

 

[Epsilon Alpha]

Does anyone even know whether these L-dopa toxicity studies are relevant to human doses?

A lot of the data is from Parkinson's patients, so at the higher end of dosing these concerns are very real.

 

[atrollappears]

A lot of the data is from Parkinson's patients, so at the higher end of dosing these concerns are very real.

Interesting. What sort of data is this? Would you mind linking some studies?

 

[eeklekins]

Interesting. What sort of data is this? Would you mind linking some studies?

There are a kazillion studies on chronic levodopa treatment, almost all in Parkinson's patients or animal models of dopamine depletion. In those, levodopa doesn't seem to be neurotoxic, but it does inevitably cause severe dyskinesias (like involuntary movements and muscle spasms), as well as pathological compulsive behaviors. Here's a good review:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21886608

It's unlikely that levodopa is gonna cause any real neurotoxicity for you, but that's because your brain will downregulate natural dopamine production to compensate. Otherwise you'd end up with a lot of neuron damage from dopamine's auto-oxidation metabolites, some of which are very reactive:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14751781

Basically, like everyone else said, you're probably better off with a little L-tyrosine and a proper diet. I've tried the whole Mucuna pruriens thing, and realized pretty quickly it wasn't a great idea. L-DOPA is nasty stuff.

 

[Hammilton]

Otherwise you'd end up with a lot of neuron damage from dopamine's auto-oxidation metabolites

That's the point of the selegiline!

 

[atrollappears]

There are a kazillion studies on chronic levodopa treatment, almost all in Parkinson's patients or animal models of dopamine depletion. In those, levodopa doesn't seem to be neurotoxic, but it does inevitably cause severe dyskinesias (like involuntary movements and muscle spasms), as well as pathological compulsive behaviors. Here's a good review:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21886608

It's unlikely that levodopa is gonna cause any real neurotoxicity for you, but that's because your brain will downregulate natural dopamine production to compensate. Otherwise you'd end up with a lot of neuron damage from dopamine's auto-oxidation metabolites, some of which are very reactive:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14751781

Basically, like everyone else said, you're probably better off with a little L-tyrosine and a proper diet. I've tried the whole Mucuna pruriens thing, and realized pretty quickly it wasn't a great idea. L-DOPA is nasty stuff.

Ah okay I see. Thanks for the info, I'll just keep taking tyrosine. One thing though, from what I read from in vitro studies, L-DOPA actually causes a different toxicity than dopamine itself, which is independent of oxidation and relies on excitotoxicity. Weird, huh?

 

[Lopez]

i actually made a post on this myself, so jealous that you actually got answers. i had to research for a while to find an answer.

well basically. L dopa is toxic because it is oxidative at some point in its metabolism (you're basically just speeding up the natural process of aging in the brain by taking it), in order to combat this "natural oxidation" i read that most people would stack it with memantine/amantadine, but i took a healthier route and bought an anti-oxidant complex and take my L dopa with orange juice, it's basically the same thing.

good luck with your supplementing!

also, avoid high protein and vitamin b with your l dopa, in order for it to reach a good half-life.

 

[atrollappears]

well basically. L dopa is toxic because it is oxidative at some point in its metabolism (you're basically just speeding up the natural process of aging in the brain by taking it), in order to combat this "natural oxidation" i read that most people would stack it with memantine/amantadine, but i took a healthier route and bought an anti-oxidant complex and take my L dopa with orange juice, it's basically the same thing.

Again, L-DOPA has been shown in vitro to be toxic to certain cell lines regardless of oxidation, but dependent on excitotoxicity. Don't assume that an antioxidant stack will allow you to take massive doses with no danger.

Sorry about being OT but that was some mean freestyling - the fact that it's about DA body spasms had me in tears. Pure gold.

Agreed!

 

[Epsilon Alpha]

You're too kind
But, I might be able to post more soon. Midterm season is over at 1800 today and then my priorities are just kicking back with the girl

 

[Hammilton]

Well, the selegiline stopped working for my RLS almost overnight last week so I started on Sinemet. Half of a 100mg tab worked pretty well. I still haven't taken a full tab yet, but I will tonight. One thing I noticed though: my hands stopped shaking. After the first dose the shakiness in my hands was completely gone. Today I noticed that it was 98% better, but there was still some shaking. Edit: when it wears off, it wears off. My left hand is shaking good again, which caused me to pour way too much "Crystal Heat" drain cleaner in the drain, causing it to boil up and cover my hand with that chemical. I dunno what's in there besides sodium hydroxide, but shit, my hand is burning like crazy still.

L-dopa induced dyskinesia's generally take a few years to set in, though, and it seems to have less propensity toward "hedonistic homeostasis dysregulation syndrome" lol - aka inducing addictive behaviors. That last bit is important because I'm working really hard at staying clean right now, and I think pramipexole induced me to slip up hard a few months back.