Opioids Kratom, WDs, and PAWS (I feel like I'm taking crazy pills)?

[Mr.Scagnattie]

It depends. Just like any opiate, it depends on the person. Some people get dependent much faster than others, some it takes a long time. Also, if you've already been dependent on opiates before, you'll get addicted again much faster.

But, with lope, if you've only been taking small amount like that for a week or two, it is not likely you'll get dependent on them. You'd have to be taking it daily for months most likely.

But, either way, only way to find out is to stop taking them.. ha.

 

[MissAmazingRachel]

(I apologize if that came across as shitty or ungrateful; it just confused me, is all)

That's somewhat of a relief, but, that actually sounds like a good idea, to stop taking them and see what happens...I do believe I'll go a few days on just the gabapentin, to see where I'm at with all this.

 

[Mr.Scagnattie]

^^

Yeah that's the only way you're going to know. And if you're not dependent, you should be sure to take breaks in between taking it for long periods of time consecutively, to avoid a future dependency.

 

[MissAmazingRachel]

Quck question, for all you who have used kratom during a detox/taper...


So, here is my predicament: the loperamide is killing me, even at low doses like 8-10mg - my liver HURTS, and it makes my entire stomach area hurt; I imagine this is what it feels like to be 9 1/2 months pregnant - I can't walk fully upright, and laying down just hurts even worse. And, it can last well until the day AFTER taking the lope (I've also been using Miralax).

This is a predicament because I have a romantic weekend planned for Monday (my weekend, at least, and was planned a month before I decided to get off kratom), and looking and feeling pregnant with some horrible diseased alien isn't an option (neither is being fogged out on gabapentin).

I've ordered a 10g sample to use in place of the lope - ABSOLUTELY nothing crazy like downing the whole bag between Monday and when I return on Tuesday; just enough to stave off WDs until I get back on Tuesday evening, and then resume tapering the lope.

My question is, how far back is this going to set me?
I almost feel silly asking, since it'll only be 2-6g max, spread over 30 hours, but then again, I didn't think this little leaf could cause so many problems, either...

 

[Anonymous-post]

I've been doing the Kratom dance for several years now, ranging from using occasionally up to binges lasting several months to a year or more. I unfortunately have had my fair share of withdrawals from harder opiates as well and some of this is gleaned from those experiences as well. Using Kratom for long enough periods of time in high enough doses will give you withdrawal very reminiscent to that of the hardest opiates, despite peoples tendency to downplay Kratom withdrawal or scoff at it saying it doesn’t even compare to such and such opiate withdrawal… well, everyone is different, but for me personally it certainly ranks up there with the best of opiates. The good news is, the duration of withdrawal symptoms and PAWS is usually far less. 3-5 days for withdrawal on average and about 2 weeks after that for PAWS is usually what I experience.

The (UC) following a listed item will indicate to use sparingly, or to use with caution as they have their own addictive qualities and possibility for withdrawal as well. After going through Kratom withdrawals the last thing you want to have to do is withdraw from something else, so please be careful with these ones. I only list them because they are, unfortunately, some of the most helpful.

Anyway, that being said, this following regimen is one I have tinkered with for years and seems to work pretty effectively, for me at least. You may need to play with the dosage or avoid certain substances as everyone reacts and metabolizes differently. As always, use extreme caution and start at the lowest dosage indicated for these products if you have never used them, or used them in combination. Be careful.

Taper
Taper off. Reduce your dosage as much as you can while feeling comfortable, over the period a week or two. You will feel some discomfort – but the goal here isn’t to get high keep that in mind - It’s to take as little as you can, but still be able to function. As you taper you can start to introduce the items listed below as needed, based on symptoms, to ease any discomfort. Psychologically, it seems to reduce some of my anxiety if I have a small supply left when I stop dosing. For some reason knowing it’s there if I need it makes it easier for me. But to do the above you need to exercise a lot of self-control. If you don’t think you can, taper off to the best of your ability and use up or throw out what you have left - or just dump it and go cold turkey.

I’ll start with the ones that actually don’t involve taking more substances, but doing something. There is science behind all of these, but this is already getting too lengthy. If you don’t believe me, do the research!

Excersize.
I know this is the last thing you’ll want to do, with little no energy and feeling like overall hell… but force yourself to do it. The benefits will be obvious. Don’t under estimate the power of this one. Usually with the regimen I will list below, I feel good enough at least to get a little in. Push yourself to do this.

Cold Showers – At least twice a day
I know this is another hard one when your temperature feels as out of whack as it will when in withdrawal but again, don’t underestimate this. Try it for at least one day, no matter how uncomfortable, this always improves my mood and actually helps with the cold sweats/feverish feelings quite a lot. It seems to actually help my body regulate temperature or the perception of temperature more effectively.

Nutrition
Eat balanced and healthy (small) meals as often as you can. I know your appetite will be close to nothing and whatever you eat might come out one end or the other pretty soon, but it’s important to try to force some food down. Avoid greasy foods – they will just add to the inability to keep food IN your stomach. The substances I’m going to list below might also help recover your appetite and keep some of the food down, it does for me at least.

Here comes the list of what to take, I don’t usually take all of these at once – I address the symptoms as they come and go and treat as needed. It’s also impossible to really prescribe a regimen that works for everyone as we all react so differently, and have different symptoms during withdrawal.

Phenibut 2-3g (UC)
This helps the body and mind. It improves your mood and seriously helps with the restlessness, sleep, anxiety and depression. Helps with body aches and pains. Also seems to help with my appetite, I’m not sure why I can’t really find any science to back that up. This is probably one of the most helpful ones for me. Don’t overdo it though.

Xanax - as needed, I usually take .5 at a time (UC)
Helps with getting to sleep and also with any anxiety the Phenibut doesn’t eliminate or in rotation with the Phenibut in order to avoid tolerance/withdrawals to either substance.

Lyrica -75-150mg (UC)
Helps with sleep, anxiety and body aches and pains – pretty significantly for aches and pains. Take in conjunction with Naproxen or Ibuprofen and it usually almost completely eliminates those symptoms.

Kava – 250-500mg (UC) – Tolerance builds up EXTREMELY fast
It’s very helpful for sleep and anxiety, and restlessness.

Note: Rotate with all of the above, they all treat similar symptoms but have tolerance build up, addiction potential and/or withdrawal symptoms of their own, so use these in rotation as needed. The Phenibut seems to be the most helpful but try not to take any of these for more than 3 days in a row.

Loperamide – about 50mg is the sweet spot for me
Helps with many of the body symptoms, most importantly the diarrhea and upset stomach. Usually when I take 50+mg I’ll even get some of my appetite back. It doesn’t cross the blood-brain barrier so it won’t help with any of the mental symptoms but this one is very effective for the body related symptoms.

Inositol/Choline 500-1000mg
Seems to give me a bit of energy and helps with the mental fog. Clears up the cobwebs a little.

Noopept 10-30mg
Same as above. Gives you back a little mental clarity and some energy. Also makes it a bit easier to get some exercise in.

Multivitamin
Anything you can do to help your body, will help you.

Vitamin B Complex
Helps with energy and depression.

5-HTP – Anywhere from 1-300mg
Helps significantly with depression, but be careful with the dosage because it can cause nausea with is the last thing you want to give yourself more of.

L-Theanine
Helps with anxiety and seems to make it a little easier to relax.

L-Tyrosine and Mucuna Pruriens
Helps produce some much-needed dopamine. Will help with the feelings of boredom and depression.

Omega -3 fatty acids
Helps regain some focus and concentration.

Several of these supplements and vitamins I already take on a daily basis but it’s extra important during withdrawals.

Anyway, this helps me significantly. It usually eliminates many of the symptoms and makes it much more bearable. If done right, I’m fully functional. Not at my best, but I can still go to work and handle day-to-day life. I sincerely hope this helps you get through your withdrawals – This has been years of experimentation and I hope that my experience can help you get through yours. Always remember to keep in mind the reason you wanted to quit in the first place and that the state you are in is only temporary. It will get better day-by-day. Try not to think too far ahead as in “ugh I have another week of this shite to go through”. Take it one day at a time.

Good luck to all of you going through this. I hope this helps you achieve your goals.

 

[MissAmazingRachel]

Great list!
I thought it'd be better to stick to as few meds as possible, but, I think I'm going to get a few of those supplements; I've felt so dizzy and just unwell in general.

Kratom's WDs ARE indeed just as nasty as traditional opiates...I'm very thankful for it helping me get off my pain meds, but, Jesus H it's just as unpleasant...note to the Rachel: drugs are bad, mmkay?

I think I pulled a dumbass move, with how I tapered off the kratom...I did nicely over the last month or so, going from 16-20g a day to, like, 8-10g, but, just hauling off and deciding to drop to just once a day, AND being stupid and using the lope to enable myself to make it just once a day (as opposed to splitting that dose up till I was out and THEN using the loperamide), none of it was very smart.

Do you think using a few grams of kratom is going to set me back a lot?

 

[whiteroom67]

Depends on how you do it. I found personally that when using Kratom to get off of stronger pain meds, tapering didnt work so well. It was HARD. I had to get on gabapentin, while supplementing with some other over the counter stuff, and use that to just stop cold turkey. The gabapentin is really what made it possible to stop though. Once the acute period ended, the gabapentin made me more out of it, and now I am currently on Wellbutrin (everyday, but planned for short-term) while switching back and forth between Phenibut and benzos every few days (to avoid addiction to either) to deal with PAWS. The Wellbutrin deals with the fatigue, lack of motivation and depression while the phenibut/benzos deal with the anxiety (especially since Wellbutrin can exacerbate anxiety). Right now Im on day 7 of being Kratom free, and day 5 since starting Wellbutrin. Its my second time quitting Kratom in the past few weeks, and the gabapentin worked better the first time because the withdrawals were worse, so I think and feel like it balanced out better in that respect.

If you want to use Kratom a little more frequently again to help your body adjust, and then switch to lope, I dont see harm, just dont go back to huge doses of Kratom. Keep it as low as possible and then quickly find a way to jump off with minimal discomfort. If it is still too tough, then there are certainly options out there, as far as what you can take, like what I am doing, so don't feel hopeless (like I once did)... many are prescription though. If you go that route though you may want to consider going to an outpatient treatment center and working with the APN (the advanced practice nurse), rather than dealing with your primary care physician who may be hit or miss when dealing with addiction issues. Ive heard and read horror stories when dealing with regular docs regarding addiction cases. I haven't even bothered trying with mine. I rather she not even fully know about my drug use and addiction issues. At least not now.

 

[MissAmazingRachel]

(Wellbutrin, no kidding? Did it take a week to start working?)
Yeeeeah, I decided that maybe it'd be smarter to taper the kratom down a bit further before totally hauling off, let my body clear itself of lope, and get my tolerance so low that maybe I won't even need any when I jump, maybe just a few gabapentin and a few Flexeril here and there. I hope I'm doing the right thing. We'll see, I guess.


Oh, gosh, I keep forgetting to mention it, in case someone else is reading this thread -- 98% L-THP. HOLY SHIT.
I have chronic insomnia and tried it as an herbal alternative to 2mg Klonopin. It knocked me out like it was Conrad Murray and I was Michael Jackson; it hit me as hard as Versed before surgery.
(Oh, and this lovely - if summarized - little study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18565275 )
I feel like such a dumb shit for not remembering until last night.
GREAT little product.

I ordered another batch last night, and I'm really very curious as to what all it'll do, now that I'm knuckling-down.

While I got really lucky in the doctor department - he agreed to take me on as a patient and let one of his APN's continue tapering me off my pain meds when my pain doctor left last year, and they both knew I'd be using something called 'kratom' when I jumped off - I just seriously don't think I have the balls to look either of them in the face and say "oh yeah, btw, I'm trying to kick that now, too"...hopefully after this taper, I won't need anything but one or two things for just a few days.

 

[whiteroom67]

(Wellbutrin, no kidding? Did it take a week to start working?)
Yeeeeah, I decided that maybe it'd be smarter to taper the kratom down a bit further before totally hauling off, let my body clear itself of lope, and get my tolerance so low that maybe I won't even need any when I jump, maybe just a few gabapentin and a few Flexeril here and there. I hope I'm doing the right thing. We'll see, I guess.


Oh, gosh, I keep forgetting to mention it, in case someone else is reading this thread -- 98% L-THP. HOLY SHIT.
I have chronic insomnia and tried it as an herbal alternative to 2mg Klonopin. It knocked me out like it was Conrad Murray and I was Michael Jackson; it hit me as hard as Versed before surgery.
(Oh, and this lovely - if summarized - little study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18565275 )
I feel like such a dumb shit for not remembering until last night.
GREAT little product.

I ordered another batch last night, and I'm really very curious as to what all it'll do, now that I'm knuckling-down.

While I got really lucky in the doctor department - he agreed to take me on as a patient and let one of his APN's continue tapering me off my pain meds when my pain doctor left last year, and they both knew I'd be using something called 'kratom' when I jumped off - I just seriously don't think I have the balls to look either of them in the face and say "oh yeah, btw, I'm trying to kick that now, too"...hopefully after this taper, I won't need anything but one or two things for just a few days.

Haha yeah it was the same with me... I told my surgeon (not my PCP) that I went onto Kratom... but not that I had a hard time getting off of that too lol. I just figured I'd better not. I actually told them that it was a legal herbal alternative that works for getting off of traditional opiates and they seemed actually little interested, but just really didn't have the time to talk about it.

What is L-THP? I never heard of it. Where can I get it?

Gabapentin definitely works for withdrawals. Acute and post-acute, but post-acute it works beter for the anxiety, depression and mood swings - NOT for the lethargy and fatigue and tiredness... it makes those worse in the post-acute stage... at least for me. So that I saved for after work. As for the Wellbutrin... they say it doesn't start "working" until after 4 weeks or whatever... but you know what - I think that's probably when your brain starts producing the extra serotonin to "keep up" with the extra dopamine and nor-epinephrine in your brain that the Wellbutrin prevents the reuptake of right away. So as for it working right away... in a way yes it does, and it feels almost like amphetamine (it's a dopamine-norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor... very similar to what cocaine does). It's kind of amazing how one is "safe" and "okay to use" and the other isn't, right? Lol, although, the Wellbutrin of course lasts much longer and doesn't bring you as "high" or "low".

So, yes, in a way, it worked right away, just not the same way it "works" after 4 weeks of taking it or whatever. By that point I knew I wouldn't need it anymore anyway. Actually I stopped it today by the way, after 7 days of taking it. The stimulant effect (motivation, mood lift) wore off and I felt very little difference from not taking it at this point as most of the fatigue and depression from the Kratom withdrawal has passed at this point for me. I just felt hungrier and a little less edgy... I was no longer gaining the benefit I needed from it. Actually, after stopping it, I felt more cravings for Kratom, and took a small dose tonight... just a small one, after 2 weeks of abstinence. I knew it was because my brain was used to having all the extra dopamine from the Wellbutrin, so the cravings came back. But I'm not staying on the Wellbutrin forever, so I have to deal with it at some point. My bro still has my Kratom hidden, he just let me have a dose tonight, and I'll probably take a dose here or there now, especially sunday when we go to the beach for the holiday weekend %)

But I'm taking it easy on it... no way am I gonna let myself slip back into dependence. Hell no.

 

[MissAmazingRachel]

That's insane, I didn't know Wellbutrin could work for that...I was on it in high school, to quit smoking, and I just remember it making me ill...but, that was over 10 years ago, and i know they've made improvements to it...my mother is taking it to quit smoking now; I might have to see what it could do for me...I don't tolerate my Adderall very well (it doesn't make me hyper in the least, but it makes my muscles feel like shit) so, maybe something softer like Wellbutrin could help, in that regard...

I've taken a break from the gabapentin, and man, I'm already starting to feel the shitty effects of going back on kratom, even in tiny doses; I was tossing and turning at 2am, my feet were hot as hell and my legs hurt...BUT...I finally got up at 4, popped 400mg of the gaba, and after an hour, everything felt better and I could go back to sleep...taking a few days' break from it and only using it when I really needed it reeeeeally made me re-appreciate it, lol.

Thp is amazing. Only two vendors carry it directly, so, if you can find it in stock, I highly recommend it.
In short order:
Thp: alkaloid (or two or three) extracted (mainly) from corydalis (aka yanhusuo). Acts as a benzo, muscle relaxer, AND mood stabilizer.
Corydalis: also an amazing herb. Depending on the dose, it's used as a sedative, tranquilizer, for pain, heart health, circulatory health, etc - great stuff.
BUT the thp extracted from it is way better.

If you look up '98% l-thp", you'll be pointed in the right direction =)

Yeah, for real, this dependence bullshit is starting to get on my nerves; it's ridiculous how easy it is to slip up with this shit.
Better than full-blown CT off medication or using Suboxone, though I guess!

 

[detoxdiva]

I am about to start using kratom as well, first time user.
Do I need to wait until I am in WD's to use it?
I was on Suboxone for 2 years, last two weeks have been off Suboxone and doing other opioid drugs, oxy, morph ect... I was going to do kratom for 2 weeks and taper during that time and my thought is that, after the two week taper on kratom the suboxone will completely be out of my system. I have tried to get of suboxone before cold turkey from 2mg and lasted about 3 weeks, when I was not getting an relief I went back on it. Just could not take it!!!
Does anyone think 2 weeks is too long for a taper or does anyone have a taper schedule for kratom that has worked for them?

 

[sekio]

Kratom is a full agonist, it won't cause PW like buprenorphine.