Opioids Kratom, WDs, and PAWS (I feel like I'm taking crazy pills)?

[MissAmazingRachel]

I've been doing some digging and can't seem to find answers to my specifications...if anyone has any insight, I'd be much obliged.

It's been just under four months since I switched from roxicodone+Oxycontin to kratom exclusively...I have no doubt that compared to roxi withdrawals, kratom withdrawals shouldn't be that bad, but, then again, I can't tell, and I don't really know exactly is going on.

I'm trying to get off of kratom, and surprisingly, it's been a lot more difficult than I thought it'd be. I can't tell if what I'm still maybe experiencing PAWS or if it's kratom withdrawals.

I swear I'm not an idiot - it's just that the first time I got off of opiates, I was given Suboxone for 6+ months, and since it was such a high dose, I didn't suffer and I really don't recall experiencing any PAWS symptoms. I had some exhaustion and I slept a lot, but as far as PAWS, I can't really speak to what they feel like. I utilized the kratom the same as the Subs - I didn't allow myself to suffer any withdrawals. Since it's been four months, I have NO idea what my tolerance or withdrawal level would be anymore.

What I'm feeling is, when I hit the 3-5 hour mark after dosing kratom, my skin starts burning and takes on an ugly, red marbled appearance (it looks like a corpse's lividity), my heart begins to race, I sweat, my muscles start burning and feeling twitchy, and I get RLS.
I realize how silly that sounds - "durr, those sound like withdrawals, stupid" - but, ARE they? Or is it the PAWS surfacing?

Ideally, if it IS PAWS, I'd like to ride them out with kratom til the majority of them subside, and then continue to wean off the kratom. I know there's no such thing as a free lunch and there might be some discomfort, but, not THIS level of discomfort, lawd jesus it's really uncomfortable.

Does anyone have any experience in what I'm talking about? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here.

 

[Flaga121]

Your not describing PAWS, I can tell you that. Thats some nasty kratom w/d, how much have you been taking?

 

[Ziggy stardust]

^^^^agreed, it's not PAWS. I get the burning skin thing coming off any opiate...Kratom included. Can you taper the Kratom? How many times do you dose a day? Pure leaf? How many grams?
My experience with Kratom WD is that it's pretty mild compared to other opiates. Maybe some lopermide will help you get thru it?

 

[amanitadine]

That's Kratom withdrawals. You haven't been on it that long, so hopefully if will be just be the opioidergic aspect...if you haven't allowed any withdrawal symptoms in the past 4 months you've basically kept your receptors in a holding pattern mode....no pain, no gain....how much you taking daily?

Taken in high doses for a long time Kratom withdrawals take on a more sinister edge....opioidergic mixed with antidepressant style withdrawals, mixed with something like Gabapentin WD's...

personally, as I take 50 g's a day and have for too long, I'd rather kick oxy....

Taper the Kratom sooner rather than later, and you'll be fine. You'll still have to pay the piper, but with a taper it shouldn't be too bad...

 

[Crashing]

PAWS is psychological, whereas AWS is physical. It's called acute in immediate withdrawal, then post-actute later on when you fall off the "purple cloud" and fall into a mental cycle of depression.

 

[Ziggy stardust]

That's Kratom withdrawals. You haven't been on it that long, so hopefully if will be just be the opioidergic aspect...if you haven't allowed any withdrawal symptoms in the past 4 months you've basically kept your receptors in a holding pattern mode....no pain, no gain....how much you taking daily?

Taken in high doses for a long time Kratom withdrawals take on a more sinister edge....opioidergic mixed with antidepressant style withdrawals, mixed with something like Gabapentin WD's...

personally, as I take 50 g's a day and have for too long, I'd rather kick oxy....

Taper the Kratom sooner rather than later, and you'll be fine. You'll still have to pay the piper, but with a taper it shouldn't be too bad...

Yikes...50gms a day? I was taking about a teaspoon (3gms?) three times a day at the most. It wears off so fast for me...4-5 hours, but it helped me get off sub..
Now I just drink a lot...(it's always something, isn't it)

 

[Hammilton]

Depending on the source a teaspoon may be more like 5 or six grams depending how level it is. My pc Bali is almost exactly 2.5g / .5tsp

 

[amanitadine]

Wha? I'd don't doubt you but that is odd! For me, depending on the grind, a T is 6-8 grams, and thus a tsp is 2-2.6....and I'm speaking of level spoons, not heaping...

 

[sekio]

Spoons aren't really standardized too much, and the density of kratom probably varies according to particle size, any compaction that may have occurred, humidity etc.

 

[MissAmazingRachel]

Your not describing PAWS, I can tell you that. Thats some nasty kratom w/d, how much have you been taking?

Dang, I had no idea it could feel like that...I mean, of course, compared the the full-blown WDs of old, they aren't THAT bad, but, geeze...powerful little plant.

My dosing is 1 tsp of finely ground Bali (sometimes it'll go up to 1/2 tbs, depending on how well maintained I feel, or if I'm suffering an ailment you'd take a prescription pain med for - thrown-out back, pain from dental work - I prefer to say no to a script being written and just use a tsp of white vein Malay), but, I suck; while it's a tsp at a time, I lose track of how MANY times I dose - I go through four ounces every 6-8 days, but, that varies as well - sometimes I maintain well at 16g (or less), and sometimes it takes up to 20g (no more than 22g)...my vendors are wonderful, and their products are great, but, not EVERY batch is going to be as high-quality...is 16g-20g a lot, would you say, for someone who was on 200-220mg roxi and 80mg oxy a day for 5+ years?

Either way, this is probably a good thing -- since it was more of a physical dependence than anything, and getting off was my choice (not my doctor's), and if PAWS truly is more psychological than anything, it's just the physical WDs I have to deal with, and I can start hardcore weaning off the kratom ASAP.

...I do wonder if that's going to suck, though...and what the best kratom tapering method(s?) would be - pre-measuring out X-amount of tsps per day, I reckon, but I wonder how much to decrease and how often...idk, has anyone gotten off kratom?

Thanks to y'all for the advice, I feel so much better now =)

 

[Flaga121]

I kicked it and went back on not long after, because I love Kratom. My advice is to be taken with a grain of salt, I used a pharmacological regiment to quit, won't work for anyone without some real self control.

I went from Bupe to about 3 tea spoons a day (No more then 10grams/day) of Kratom. Then I started taking single days off using Phenibut. then I turned that into two days, still using Phenibut. On the third day I went sober to avoid building a Phenibut tolerance. Then on the fourth I went back to Kratom using half of what I had been using before. After doing this three times I was clean. I remained clean a week before starting on the Kratom again, though not daily anymore.

 

[MissAmazingRachel]

Well this was interesting...

I had a tooth break at the gum line, developed an infection, and wasn't aware my dentist would have to cut into my gum to get the sucker yanked out (infection + Novocaine = WHAT Novocaine?), so I accepted the small script he wrote for the pain (like, 8-9 10/325 Norco)...and?

NOTHING.
NOT A GODDAMNED THING.
It didn't help the pain, and it certainly didn't give me any warm fuzzies.

How on earth is it at all POSSIBLE that kratom is stronger?!

I even opted to take a few days' break from kratom and just used the Norco instead - hideous withdrawal feelings. I can't wrap my head around that.
Ridic...

I have a huge stock of Phenibut I haven't touched in a few months, and just might give it a try to help get off the kratom...man I wish marijuana was as effective for me as it seems for others who utilize it in a detox =\

Flaga, how comfortable/uncomfortable are you when you do this?

 

[Flaga121]

I'm good to go. No W. D at all.

 

[《Plasticity》]

Rachael, order some gabapentin and baclofen (baclofen is interchangeable with phenibut), this should relieve almost all of your withdrawals (although maybe not as your withdrawals will be stronger than mine since you have a prior addiction). I'm at the peak of kratom withdrawal and a combination of gabapentin and baclofen (works exactly like phenibut afaik only baclofen is more potent) and I feel like I'm not even in withdrawal...maybe even slightly euphoric from the gabapentin, it's fucking amazing. For me, I've basically found the solution, dare I say 'cure" for my kratom withdrawal. What's best is that I don't find either recreational so I will have no problems dropping the two in a couple days and they are unscheduled in the US and can be purchased online. I should say though that phenibut carries some nasty withdrawals, far nastier than kratom withdrawal so be carefull with that stuff. Baclofen as well...

 

[sekio]

How on earth is it at all POSSIBLE that kratom is stronger?!

Kratom has multiple painkilling actions, hydrocodone has one.

The alkaloids in kratom work to enhance the release of norepinephrine and adrenaline, which is actually a really good painkiller (can be better than plain opioids) - the same effects responsible for why tramadol works well for pain, and also amphetamine. Some alkaloids are also mild NMDA antagonists, which is also a painkiller.

Plain jane opioids don't work very well on their own to kill pain for many. You almost always need to beef them up with other, non-opioid painkillers for best efficacy.

 

[d1ahp]

I find Kratom withdrawals to be way worse than your weaker opiods like hydrocodone, codeine and morphine. The restlessness that comes with it is through the roof. I used it to kick once and I thought it was a miracle drug, until I stopped taking it and went into a withdrawal.

 

[MissAmazingRachel]

Rachael, order some gabapentin and baclofen (baclofen is interchangeable with phenibut), this should relieve almost all of your withdrawals...

Oh yeah, I completely forgot about gaba and baclofen!! I utilized the former quite a bit while I was at the tail-end of my roxi detox, and took a few of the latter, and you're right, they work remarkably well...gabapentin, I have access to, but I'll have to substitute some Flexiril and just dabs of Phenibut for the baclofen, unfortunately, as I'm too much of a scaredy cat to purchase it online (I've never had the nerve, and, it'd be just my luck that I get caught!)...

I find Kratom withdrawals to be way worse than your weaker opiods like hydrocodone, codeine and morphine. The restlessness that comes with it is through the roof. I used it to kick once and I thought it was a miracle drug, until I stopped taking it and went into a withdrawal.

That's terrifying...yeah, I was the same way; I couldn't believe what a miracle it was, having such a large roxi/oxy dependence and not suffering any withdrawals by utilizing kratom...hah, PSYCH!...I definitely took the warnings of kratom withdrawal seriously, but, when I was first put on medication and started with Norco, I remember those withdrawals, and I just can't believe that kratom's are right up there, if not worse...amazing.

So! Gabapentin, the-closest-substitute-for-baclofen, maybe a touch of Phenibut...anything else I ought to utilize?

 

[sarajenni88]

Did anyone mention loperamide (Imodium)

 

[《Plasticity》]

List of meds that are good to keep around for kratom withdrawal...

-Tramadol (this is only used for a rapid taper for it's longer half-life and low mu agonism, 1 weeks use MAX)
-loperamide
-Methoxetamine/ketamine/DXM
-baclofen
-phenibut (3 days use max IMO)
-etizolam (or benzos in general, etiz is just dirt cheap)
-gabapentin
-pregabalin
-Soma (carisopradol)
-kava (works for some but not me)
-clonodine

I'm currently 5-6 days clean from kratom, my withdrawals are basically gone, just the occasional chill and insomnia. The gabapentin/baclofen proved to be the most beneficial combo ever...Seriously the easiest kick ever, without a doubt. Hope you make it through to the other side, stay strong! Oh and make sure you don't switch addictions obviously, cycle your meds responsibly.

 

[Snake_Eyes]

Wha? I'd don't doubt you but that is odd! For me, depending on the grind, a T is 6-8 grams, and thus a tsp is 2-2.6....and I'm speaking of level spoons, not heaping...

2.5-2.6 is what I also get with a level non packed teaspoon and that's measuring a few different strains. Although strangely using the same brand of measuring spoon a .5 tsp is only 1.0 gram. I used a different measuring spoon brand and was getting 2.8-3.0 for a tsp.