Kratom + Tyrosine - First time - great alternative to regular stimulants/entactogens

[Ximot]

Hello all

last weekend I decided not to ingest any stimulants but to have a great time regardless... normally my social enhancers of choice are M1 or 4FA, both of which are kind of in-between stimulant and empathogen/entactogen.

My friend ingested 4FA in rhe afternon, and I chose to remain baseline... But I got an incredible contact high off him, I have to say. I think the trick is to feel with a person rather than to develop envy cos they're high when one isn't. Also helps to be baseline together and then watch them come up.

Anyway... when plateau'ed, I felt quite normal again... with 4FA, the come-up is the most beautiful thing, after that it flattens out a bit - so unlike your typical psychedelic, where the come-up is uncomfortable and later on it's more often than not smooth(ish) sailing if one learns to let go.

In the evening, we both go and see another friend... and I get another contact high off them both ingesting M1, watching themcome up and smile.

What may have helped with the second contact high, though - this was in preparation for a night out (4FA was afternoon), was that I had drunk a tea made from a lowish-medium dose of kratom and a similar dose of catha edulis.

And to this I added a generous teaspoonful of L-TYROSINE (an amino acid that is also a building block for dopamine). And I think the tyrosine, at such a dose, definitely picked me up in a major way - it felt like a stimulant without the jitters. Though maybe the kratom helped keep the jitters at bay as well, I dunno. I think a heaped teaspoonful of tyrosine is a mssive dose, so go easy on yourselves if you plan to imitate this - see if you can handle normal doses of tyrosine first, as apparently not eeryone responds well to it. And avoid MAOi's when using tyrosine, this is important.

I, for one, will be using massive doses of tyrosine moreoften when going out and looking for that special pick-me-up.

 

[hfrs]

I'm not even sure there is enough here for a trip report - but it's definitely not OD material.. moving to TR

 

[Xorkoth]

Nice, Ximot... interesting to read about. Also always interesting to read about contact highs... I find them very reliable indeed if your attitude and theirs is correct. I have in many cases tripped around friends and my fiance without them knowing (or with them knowing) and given strong contact highs, to the point of visuals.

I renamed this a bit.

 

[Ximot]

Thanks for the rewording of the title, Xork! I was gonna post it in TR but then thought that it really was a bit short, and so I thought it might be better in OD, because it might just help a few stim freaks gain a new view on How to get High Safely... avoiding all the classical drugs completely

I really don't know how smart it is to have a monster spoonful of tyrosine, but since I bought 500g bulk of it one day instead of those silly overpriced 500mg caps, I thought I might as well have a go at it. Part of it was surely the tyrosine, but part of it was def. the contact high. Because I only took the tyrosine in the evening, and we had a great music session in the afternoon, with my friend coming up on his 4FA and me choosing not to indulge (I have been going through a pahse of being fairly health-conscious lately, I have stopped smoking tobacco, I don't get stoned saily any more, I drink less alcohol, and I avoid stimulants for the most part... though I tripped 3 weekends in a row lately, sometimes on 2 or 3 consecutive days). I also have to say that I know this guy who took the 4FA very well. But I felt as if I had taken it... with none of the side-effects

 

[Xorkoth]

How long did the tyrosine last? I may experiment with that tonight as I am desiring an altered state but have refused myself "drugs".

 

[Beenhead]

Great TR, As long as it is a story and does not cronicle several days worth of experiments with an obscure non recreational drug, Id call it a TR.

Very interesting that you got effects from L-Tyrosine, and please people considering this be careful about what meds youre taking and combining with L-Tyrosine.

Im skeptical of Contact highs, becasue anyone who has read any of my posts know Im a fairly solid Realist. I just dont see how you get anything from nothing. I undestand getting an elevated mood from being around someone under the influence. If the people around you are happy you are more happy and such. But visuas from not taking anything, I just dont get how that is possible, if there is nothing in the synapse that can cause it, then why is it there.

 

[Ximot]

How long did the tyrosine last? I may experiment with that tonight as I am desiring an altered state but have refused myself "drugs".

I had the catha edulis / kratom tea around 6.30 pm and then downed the Tyrosine around 7pm, and then we went out. I was well "up" until around midnight, and then around 1am I returned home and managed to sleep soon after. Didn't have any hangover, even though I'd had several beers between 8pm and midnight. The beers may also have added to the euphoria, though as I said I'd also been euphoric in the afternnon during my friend's 4FA come-up. I think the tyrosine definitely upped it a notch and gave me energy.

 

[Dondante]

Im skeptical of Contact highs, becasue anyone who has read any of my posts know Im a fairly solid Realist. I just dont see how you get anything from nothing. I undestand getting an elevated mood from being around someone under the influence. If the people around you are happy you are more happy and such. But visuas from not taking anything, I just dont get how that is possible, if there is nothing in the synapse that can cause it, then why is it there.

I think contact highs are often misrepresented. I doubt Ximot would claim he felt the 4-FA or felt the M1. Emotions are contagious though, and people under the influence of psychedelics or entactogens often display subtle behavioral cues that could affect others interacting with that person, particularly people who are more perceptive to these cues.

Some interesting links ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_contagion

Emotional contagion is the tendency to express and feel emotions that are similar to and influenced by those of others. One view of the underlying mechanism is that it represents a tendency to automatically mimic and synchronize facial expressions, vocalizations, postures, and movements with those of another person and, consequently, to converge emotionally (Hatfield, Cacioppo, & Rapson, 1994). A broader definition of the phenomenon was suggested by Sigal G. Barsade- "a process in which a person or group influences the emotions or behavior of another person or group through the conscious or unconscious induction of emotion states and behavioral attitudes".[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neurons

Theory of mind appears to be an innate potential ability in humans (and, some argue, in certain other species), but one requiring social and other experience over many years to bring successfully to adult fruition. It is probably a continuum, in the sense that different people may develop more, or less, effective theories of mind, varying from very complete and accurate ones, through to minimally functional. It is often implied or assumed (but not stated explicitly) that this does not merely signify conceptual understanding "other people have minds and think," but also some kind of understanding and working model that these thoughts and states and emotions are real and genuine for these people and not just ungrounded names for parroted concepts. Empathy is a related concept, meaning experientially recognizing and understanding the states of mind, including beliefs, desires and particularly emotions of others without injecting your own, often characterized as the ability to "put oneself into another's shoes."

In Philosophy of mind, mirror neurons have become the primary rallying call of simulation theorists concerning our 'theory of mind.' 'Theory of mind' refers to our ability to infer another person's mental state (i.e., beliefs and desires) from their experiences or their behavior. For example, if you see a person reaching into a jar labelled 'cookies,' you might assume that he wants a cookie (even if you know the jar is empty) and that he believes there are cookies in the jar.

There are several competing models which attempt to account for our theory of mind; the most notable in relation to mirror neurons is simulation theory. According to simulation theory, theory of mind is available because we subconsciously put ourselves in the shoes of the person we're observing and, accounting for relevant differences, imagine what we would desire and believe in that scenario. [30][31]

 

[Xorkoth]

Im a fairly solid Realist.

The problem with "Realism" (as my sister is and calls it as well) is that science at any point can only explain so much. It's continually built upon and if you look back in history, most of what was "known" to be true at any point is has been disproven or made obsolete. It would be silly to think that the same is not true about today. It seems stubborn to me to cling to whatever can be proven with whatever current methods of measurement we have today, especially considering how little we actually know about what's going on in the brain and in the universe, what with all the invisible "magical" forces we have discovered relatively recently.

Anyway this diverges from the topic and was not meant as a dig at you, and was meant more as a general statement beyond the scope of what you were talking about. We need "Realists" to keep us grounded, just like "Realists" need those willing to explore outside the status quo. It's a beautiful example of Yin and Yang.

In other words, I just used this thread for my own agenda!

So don't be like me.

 

[hfrs]

I'm glad to see you guys were okay with keeping it here. I thought it was kind of interesting and didn't want to see it deleted, but also wanted to get it to people that may appreciate it, would have been flames in OD i think.

I really have never heard of contact highs other than people joking about being in the same room as people smoking pot. The scientist half of me says no way, but the other half thinks it's interesting (maybe i'm just schizo though!).

 

[stirfry]

I had the catha edulis / kratom tea around 6.30 pm and then downed the Tyrosine around 7pm, and then we went out. I was well "up" until around midnight, and then around 1am I returned home and managed to sleep soon after. Didn't have any hangover, even though I'd had several beers between 8pm and midnight. The beers may also have added to the euphoria, though as I said I'd also been euphoric in the afternnon during my friend's 4FA come-up. I think the tyrosine definitely upped it a notch and gave me energy.

did you ever think that the Khat may have been what was giving you the stimulant effects, not the tyrosine? i tough tyrosine was non-spychoactive, just a metabloc pre-curser for dopamine.

 

[Xorkoth]

I'm glad to see you guys were okay with keeping it here. I thought it was kind of interesting and didn't want to see it deleted, but also wanted to get it to people that may appreciate it, would have been flames in OD i think.

I really have never heard of contact highs other than people joking about being in the same room as people smoking pot. The scientist half of me says no way, but the other half thinks it's interesting (maybe i'm just schizo though!).

What do you think about mirror neurons, out of curiosity?

Science appears to be pointing to the nature of reality being much less finite than we imagined. IMO.

 

[hfrs]

It's really a strange concept. For me when I think about it, initially it makes so much sense and seems like a explanation for how organisms learn (at least visual learning).

But then... I'll think about how signaling is traditionally taught (which you were 100% correct above, a lot of what we think is truth now is probably not 100% correct), and it just seems to defy common sense that the stimulus could come from a separate organism. We (and animals) can initiate signaling from sources outside of us (smell and taste come to mind as good examples of this) but what would the stimulus be if one monkey is mirroring another's arm raise??? This is where is seems impossible.

Definitely an interesting field and even if it is never understood, i would think a lot of unintended things will be learned by attempts to understand it. Last I read there still was no model that has been found to study this, that always makes the work a lot harder.

Related to what you said about what is truth today.... I was reading a really old issue of Science or Nature last weekend while I was waiting for something to finish. In the letters section, it was filled with a very nasty debate on whether HIV caused AIDS and if there was proof. Now, it seems obvious but looking at that article made me think about how much we really don't know. The arguments were really find of funny to read, it was a very emotional issue and not well understood - not all the letters were written by researchers, but the whole thing was funny to read and is something that makes ya think! You don't frequently see "I'm right, you're wrong" and " No, I'm right you're stupid" arguments from this field - but that was definitely happening in this back issue!

 

[Xorkoth]

Yeah, what is weird to me to think about is how little we know about almost everything if you think about it. I mean, we have seemingly vast quantities of information on mental disorders and neuroscience in particular, yet all we really have is a series of observations about behavior that we string together theories about that over time seem to be true, yet we don't have any idea what's going on in the details, or how it all actually comes together to create consciousness and self-awareness and so forth. In some ways it resembles religious dogma, things that we've come to believe without thought to the contrary, that are really just the best fit we could think of for a collection of behaviors and/or concentration or presence of bodily chemicals we needed to explain. But at any time any one of our theories about things could fall through completely and change the way we view reality again, as it has done throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.

Some have said that science has become the religion of the 21st century. I don't know if that's entirely accurate, as the scientific process is extremely important to observe. But I think a lot of parallels can be drawn.

 

[Dondante]

But then... I'll think about how signaling is traditionally taught (which you were 100% correct above, a lot of what we think is truth now is probably not 100% correct), and it just seems to defy common sense that the stimulus could come from a separate organism. We (and animals) can initiate signaling from sources outside of us (smell and taste come to mind as good examples of this) but what would the stimulus be if one monkey is mirroring another's arm raise??? This is where is seems impossible.

Mirror neurons aren’t all that spooky or mysterious, although as a system, they’re certainly far from understood. Identifying them is probably only the tip of the iceberg in terms of explaining a lot about human behavior. A good example is facial mimicry … when someone smiles at you, you reflexively smile back. People have the tendency to automatically and subconsciously mimic expressions of others. A system of mirror neurons seems to be a plausible explanation.

Terms like “contact high” or “telepathy” in relation to the psychedelic experience usually point supernatural explanations, but I'd say it’s just a mix of misinterpretation and delusion. True telepathy requires sensory isolation from another person, and while I think some people are convinced this is possible as well, it’s important to remember that delusions are part of the psychedelic experience. There is an incredible amount of information being exchanged within a social group even without verbal communication. A lot is probably processed subconsciously, but with psychedelics this information could be brought more fully into the conscious realm allowing one to be more perceptive to the mental states of others.

Yeah, what is weird to me to think about is how little we know about almost everything if you think about it. I mean, we have seemingly vast quantities of information on mental disorders and neuroscience in particular, yet all we really have is a series of observations about behavior that we string together theories about that over time seem to be true, yet we don't have any idea what's going on in the details, or how it all actually comes together to create consciousness and self-awareness and so forth. In some ways it resembles religious dogma …

I agree. We don’t know much. Any expert in neurophysiology that claims consciousness can be explained in terms of action potentials and neuronal systems is overstepping their bounds. Same goes for any physicist that claims to have a comprehensive understanding of quantum mechanics or string theory. Scientists do tend to be dogmatic in some ways (probably because you have to take a stand in academia), but the experts should be more aware than anybody of how much is unknown.

It's probably best to be open-minded, but also to maintain a healthy sense of skepticism. Science isn’t the perfect truth-seeking machine it sometimes claims to be.

"A naturalistic methodology has its value, no doubt. […] I reject the naturalistic view: It is uncritical. Its upholders fail to notice that whenever they believe to have discovered a fact, they have only proposed a convention. Hence the convention is liable to turn into a dogma. This criticism of the naturalistic view applies not only to its criterion of meaning, but also to its idea of science, and consequently to its idea of empirical method."

– Karl Popper