Opioids kratom for PAWS?

[lady_stardust]

i really hope this hasn't been asked. i've used the search engine and only found kratom in relationship to acute wds....
i have 27 days clean. i've been dealing w/PAWS and struggling. is taking kratom a bad idea?

the truth is i should have asked this question a week ago because i've already ordered and started taking it, and have found it VERY helpful w/pain and agitation. i've been taking about five capsules twice a day since saturday, so, for the past four days, and i've begun eating a gratefruit w/the morning dose. i also have legitimate chronic pain (the meds r what initiated my last run that lasted over three years!). the "addicted to kratom", and "tapering kratom" threads make me nervous. (of course, addict that i am, my response has been, "note to self: don't run out." hm......

i'd be sincerely grateful for advice. thank u in advance!

 

[Anon610]

Sorry I can't answer your question but how is Kratom? I wouldn't want to drink a nasty brew. Never knew they made pills. How well do they work when tapering off opiates like Oxycodone? I use about 30mg a day. Usually no more than 40mg.

 

[Yaj]

I've been clean from poppy derivatives for almost a year, excepting one hospitalization where they gave me morphine iv for two days, and have been using kratom most days for the last six months to deal with paws, cravings, and icky feelings. I started taking kratom six months into being clean when I started to feel like I really wanted to get high again and knew I couldn't because of probation/needing to keep my life together. It has been a very good experience, about 3 months in a took a trip out of the country for 2 weeks and abruptly stopped after daily use except for a 2 or 3 days, I did not experience any withdrawal symptoms and my tolerance was back to zero after two weeks. For me it is a very mellow opiate feeling that I don't feel the need to redoes constantly, I take it once a day in the evening at anywhere form 10-20 grams and have taken more occasionally. Obviously we addicts like mind altering drugs so we must be careful but especially for chronic pain patients kratom seems to work very well

 

[RTrain]

I got clean and did the same things as you. I started using Kratom, but it ended up sending me back down the road to opiates. From Kratom to poppy tea to Oxycodone, then I was right back where I started. Kratom was similar to Suboxone for me, they both have little value in re-dosing in a day, they both seem to have a ceiling effect for euphoria, and they both provide a weak high that constantly reminds you of how good some OC or H is. I definitely prefer Suboxone, though, because it doesn't bother my stomach, does not taste god awful, is much easier to deal with in general, and re-dosing doesn't do much but is more worthwhile than with Kratom. Also seems less unknowns in terms of health concerns with taking suboxone, I am put of by the whole jaundice issue some have when taking Kratom for extending periods of time.

Just realize you are an addict and you will likely get addicted and become physically dependent on Kratom. You might be satisfied to keep using Kratom, but many can attest to it causing serious withdrawals. So if you use it daily you are going to need it to function eventually. There are even lots of people out there who have gone to Suboxone to combat their Kratom habits.

For me Kratom lost its magic real quick. It might depend on what you habit was before. I small hydro or oxy habit or something even weaker and Kratom might blow it out of the water for you. For me, I redose my opes at least 4 times a day when I am using and Kratom sucked to redose so I got sick of it in no time.

FYI to 2nd poster, The capsules are just powder that the vendor put into a gel cap and over priced cause they went out of the way to out the in a gel cap for you. Its cheaper to just buy powder and a couple hundred "00" gel caps and make them yourself.

 

[weekend addiction]

Capsule machines are extremely cheap I have one at home. Unfortunately the one I have seems more suited for equestrian vetinary use. I use kratom occasionally when I get the urge for H. Been clean for a good while now but still get the occasional craving.

I'm past paws I would say and I just get the itch sometimes and kratom seems to clear it up. I dose it 2-3 times daily for a week. By the end my tolerance is through the roof and I'm sick of opiates again. There's no urge to go to anything stronger. I know I would have already ruined the chance for a good high by my kratom binge. So I just wait another month or so and place another order.

I'm kinda craving some kind of opiate because I'm going to the beach. Will have to do with other drugs I guess.

 

[lady_stardust]

thank u all for the input.

to answer a few and respond to a few: my original habit was large amounts of Heroin/coke. i'm definitely not getting hi or any kind of buzz from the kratom, just relief from chronic pain(takes the edge off which is great), leg cramps, RLS, anxiety, and diarrhea (which is likely IBS since i shouldn't have had it three weeks out, should i have?)

and to answer Anon's question- i know its ridiculous, but i don't know how much oc that is, but i've never had luck w/kratom for acute wds, tho many have had limited success, but as i originally posted, its helped alot w/PAWS. there r many threads that list many meds/herbs/supplements that can help alot w/acute wds. i did a medical detox w/ridiculously small doses of methadone on a lightning fast taper (6 days), then three days of clonadine. if u can do a medical detox i highly recommend it, as i would have abused anything possible during acute wds.

and as far as the capsule question: i don't pay more than an extra few dollars and a few days, to have the powder put into capsules, tho i wouldn't do it again. i had forgotten about "toss/wash" when i placed the order, which IMO is better- faster, more effective, and ever so slightly cheaper.

thanks again for the responses! any more input is gratefully welcomed.

 

[Lady Codone]

My opinion: if you're off opiates, don't start another habit now. Kratom is addictive as any opiate and can cause withdrawals comparable to others. If you can manage to confine your use to once or twice a week (or better yet--only when you're REALLY feeling down), it might be okay. Anything's better than relapsing on dope or other "hard drugs". Kratom is not a free ride though. It's easy to fall into daily use if only to stave off withdrawals.

 

[Salute my shorts]

I've used kratom pretty regularly in the past, when I'd have 200 grams it'd be a nearly everyday thing, while have a perc prescription and anywhere from 4 bags to a little over a bundle of dope a week plus whatever other pks and the like found their way to me. The only negative thing about kratom to me was every once and a while it'd turn your piss brownish iced tea color. But with all that going on for a couple years on and of I've only gone through terrible withdrawl maybe 5 or 6 times. And all those times were when I had ran out of mxe or hadent done any in days. I really cant stress enough about how mxe helps keep your opiate/opioid tolerance where it is and at the least slow it down dramatically. I was on 6-8 perc 5s for almost 2 years and that whole time 2-3 consistently gave me the same warm feeling I got from when I first started them up. Same with all other opiates, tolerance dose build up slowly but drastically slower.

So I guess to the op if you are going to pick up kratom or get back on any type of thing like that and absolutely set on it, try and tuff it out for a while and let your tolerance drop down to a normal level, and every other day use a small 20-30mg dose (go even higher if you want to 40-60mgs for a beautiful time) to not only to have fun but mxe really does work wonders for slowing down tolerance...Though of course with this you're going to develop an mxe tolerance which is annoying but at least you wont get paws from it, upper leg muscle aches is the most I've gotten though, and have heard other people note the same thing , but since this is a harm reduction thread I'm not even going to advise you to go balls deep sliding up the wall, getting sucked down then up a slow motion medieval waterslide. It is very compulsive, tolerance builds quick and lasts sooo long.

But yea man if you're trying to get back to a low tolerance and maintain in and make the development of one a hell of a lot slower even 20-40mgs mxe 2-3 times a week you will see a difference within days, you just need to let your opi tolerance drop down for a bit so you're at a level where wd is just uncomfortable or barely noticeable or even not there...........(also I just wrote this assuming you hadn't given mxe a try, if you have my bad just sharing my exp with it) good luck!

 

[lady_stardust]

whoa! i feel so ignorant...what is mxe?

and how many mgs is five 00caps of kratom? or, when toss n washing, how much is a tablespoon?

and regarding tolerance, if i use gratefruit, or one of the stomach acid meds, and therefore am able to get relief from PAWS w/less kratom, will that make my addiction and therefore wds (hypothetic wds, from kratom) less?my main concern about using kratom is that it will interfere, if not halt entirely, my brain/nervous system from repairing itself because i had already gone so far, IMHO.

oh, and the post about liver damage from long term term kratom use scars me (and surprises me since opiates aren't hard on your liver at all). is this damage dose dependent? i have hep c . . . have had it for about fifteen years, and have never been bothered by it. i'd hate to stress my liver out after quitting hard drugs and alcohol!

thank u bluelighters! i love this forum..

 

[DickTate]

@lady_stardust:

MXE= Methoxetamine, a Ketamine-like RC.

I only know that one piled teaspoon is about 5g of powdered Kratom.

I don't know if the potentiating affects the potential WD-symptoms but regarding your concerns: Mitragynine, the main alkaloid of Kratom is an opioid and therefore will affect your CNS and get you addicted. Even if the Withdraw-Storys from Kratom-use vary a lot, I would not take it easy with that stuff.

And regarding the liver I would think that it is dose-dependent as well as frequency. With Hep-C I guess you have routine checks?

 

[Salute my shorts]

^ yup, mxe is a beautiful dissociative, probably my all time favorite drug ever. I've heard dxm can help the same way, but cant vouch myself as I've never taken it recreational doses, or even gone higher than 2 Nyquil liquid gels to help get to sleep.

 

[Tryptamite]

OP how long we're you off heroin? 3 weeks?

It sounds like you may have been experiencing PAWS but not only that from what I have read here and if my assumption of 3 weeks was correct your body was not over the physical aspec of withdrawal.

WD is a long drawn out process. For me coming off methadone and heroin it was at least 6 weeks before I was physically ok (worst discomfort over in about 2 weeks) and PAWS lasted another few months.

It sounds like you have picked up the habit again, albeit with a much lesser opioid.i would suggest tapering off your kratom dosage slowly when you feel comfortable enough to do so. I appreciate it is helping you with the physical aspects of WD you are still experiencing. Kratom is an opioid and you will experience WDs from it, that is why you should taper.

Do not look at this as a "relapse" or a step backwards. Look at it as another stage in your recovery.

 

[podsnomo]

My opinion: if you're off opiates, don't start another habit now. Kratom is addictive as any opiate and can cause withdrawals comparable to others. If you can manage to confine your use to once or twice a week (or better yet--only when you're REALLY feeling down), it might be okay. Anything's better than relapsing on dope or other "hard drugs". Kratom is not a free ride though. It's easy to fall into daily use if only to stave off withdrawals.

True dat! I started using kratom after a long poppy pod habit and it kicked my ass just as hard. Lead me back to other opiates too. It's nothing to mess around with. Especially for we addicts. In theory, yes, it's a nice, safe relief from some of what goes on in acute WDs and in PAWS, but it can quickly become your best (worst) friend (enemy). Be careful. Look for other, natural stuff that isn't addictive. Like SAM E and stuff like that.

 

[RobotRipping]

@lady codone: you mean to say kratom will cause a dependency right? if you are legit addicted to kratom you have some issues! Even so it takes forever for kratom to create a strong dependency, it's about as rough as being dependent on codeine. About the same addiction potential as well. I've used codeine for many many years and have never been addicted to it, dependent sure but not addicted, same with kratom. They are just too weak to be addicted to, especially since you can only take them orally too. You can be addicted to anything but really, it has a low addiction potential.

it's great for PAWS, i used it to detox this time around and i'm still off opiates and still have tons of kratom left that i don't even use because it smells and tastes gross and the high sucks.

 

[podsnomo]

everyone's different robot. and I'll be the first to admit I have issues. big time. but some people do get legitimately ADDICTED to kratom.
here's a shit ton of people talking about it.

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/627141-Kratom-Addiction-Need-Help-After-Withdrawals-Are-Over

maybe you've got worse horror stories, and maybe you suffered more being addicted to things you can inject. I'll give you that. but for people who have never known a higher high, this shit can be devastating. was for me.

peace,
pnm

 

[RobotRipping]

i know it can cause a pretty bad dependency for some people (as well it's all relative), especially if you came off PST/Pods went to kratom and withdrawed from there, that fucking hurts, i know it. But addiction defined as, cravings or using despite negative consequences, well kratom is kind of self limiting. You can only take so much before you get sick, it doesn't cost much and it's not that strong.

Full spectrum extracts are a different story, but plain old kratom powder, doesn't have a high potential for addiction or abuse. I've used kratom for years and have been addicted to opiates/benzos/stims but never kratom. I've actually never been dependent on kratom either or withdrawed from it even after 6 months of daily use so i guess that's just me.

I didn't mean to come off as saying you're a pussy if you can't handle a kratom withdrawal and that i'm a big junkie that knows withdrawals cause i use real drugs. I completely understand, but my contention is that kratom causes a physical dependency and doesn't have huge potential for addiction - i'd say it's on par with codeine, which while you can become addicted to it, it's statistically not very addicting.

I say this because kratom is extremely useful for opiate addicts going through PAWS, i would have relapsed without it so i don't want someone to be scared off of using kratom. Kratom is not just replacing one addiction with another, it's a very special plant with special properties. It's more of a stimulant than an opiate (even in more opiate like doses and strains) and that is why it's so damn helpful for PAWS; kratom won't make you nod but will kill cravings, give you energy and get your shit together while your body recovers. Yes there is a risk you'll become physically dependent on kratom but the withdrawals are much easier than a big opiate habit and much more manageable and do not typically have PAWS associated with them. As well, kratom is very easy to taper with.

Sorry it was devastating for you but IIRC you were on pods then kratom right? if that's the case, yeah it will fucking hurt because the kratom is essentially just holding off the pod withdrawal, which is IMO the worst fucking opiate withdrawal ever.

 

[pro re nata]

PAWS can be a long hard period for most people that feels like it will never end.... it is tough.

it is not mentioned much but mulungu can be very helpful - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythrina_mulungu ... .. check it out, it is pretty amazing stuff!!

do you see or have a gp?? i know the last thing you probably want to think about is using some form of medication. wellbutrin has helped many people climb their way out of paws also helping with cravings and staying out of relapse. it is not like ssri's or snri's it is a ndri and is very easy to tolerate with little to no side effects and most off you can stop taking it with ease. oh.. . if you are a smoker it is a nicotine antagonist too, so it could help you quit or smoke less = bonus!!

neurontin could also help with your paws and keep your chronic pain at a decent level depending on what type of pain you suffer from. i too deal with chronic pain and get not wanting to be dependent and addicted to medications. neurontin does work on gaba but has very low to no abuse factor, might be something to discuss with your doc...

but yeah a great naturopathic medicine that could really help is the mulungu... funny it too can help with smoking cessation!!

good luck!

 

[BeardScraper]

i have been using Kratom for about 3 or 4 months now. 1x per day at first now 2x per day. usually Bali or Maeng Da. great for energy and getting stuff done, sure. and it has gotten me to limit my oxy use which is a miracle. but it hasnt gotten me off the pills entirely because i get a mild opiate feeling from it. and it keeps me craving the itchies, if you will. then when im out of kratom i will go buy some oxy. as far a W/D goes, ive noticed that the mood swings are still there, and the RLS is still there. that RLS is the killer for me. and kratom constipates the hell out of me! i supposed drinking kratom is better than bangin 30's though.

 

[BeardScraper]

and i am just terrible at trying to taper on my own. if i have any product left, i will ingest. happy now....sad later.

 

[RobotRipping]

^don't bang your oxy it has a super high oral BA (no point in banging it), for RLS, take immodium (loperamide) as well as kratom, with the two, you will kill all of the withdrawal symptoms and will only feel like you want to get high still (cravings). Physically, you'll be okay though. Definitely order a big bottle on the internet in case you run out of opiates or decide to taper or quit. It's cheap and actually works. If you can't taper oxy (i couldn't) and you actually want to quit, switch over to a longer acting opiate for a few days then go straight to loperamide and kratom and get rid of all your connects and access to opiates.