Kratom Kratom causing depression while on it (not withdrawal) in high doses

[Juicewrldfan]

Hi Everyone,

So, there are many anecdotal experiences of kratom causing depression while on it in high doses. My wife and myself have experienced this as well while trying to find our optimal dosages. It seems to cause agitation and depression in doses that are too high. This puzzles me because my understanding is that it is a 5ht2a antagonist and does have antidepressant effects in low-normal dosages. Does anyone know what mechanism can be causing this? I understand that it can cause depression when withdrawing, but I am speaking specifically about after it kicks in.

Additionally, I always thought kratom to be relatively safe, but I have noticed that I have been getting very mild pain in my liver, my left side of chest near my heart, and sometimes lower left quadrant right under my rib cage. I am successfully working to reduce my dosage because of this and I have already brought my dosage down by half. Does anyone have any insight into this? I have a fatty liver so I am thinking that my liver is having a hard time processing the kratom and perhaps overworking one of my kidneys as a result? Yet, I have absolutely no other symptoms.

How soon do you notice depression after dosing your kratom? Is it when its wearing off?

I am also curious as to how does kratom not impact psilocybin negatively if the research is correct and it is a 5ht2a antagonist. I have tripped with psilocybin and kratom and did not notice it negatively impact the trip. My wife has as well.

Thanks everyone!

 

[plumbus-nine]

I am also curious as to how does kratom not impact psilocybin negatively if the research is correct and it is a 5ht2a antagonist. I have tripped with psilocybin and kratom and did not notice it negatively impact the trip. My wife has as well.

Will be due to affinity, if psilocybin has higher affinity than Kratom's alkaloids then it will displace them from 5ht2a.

I didn't get depressed from Kratom but what's a high dose for you? Most I took were maybe 30g and disappointed me, for me Kratom has a ceiling at low dosage (maybe 10g) where more doesn't mean more effects. But once when I was on memantine, which is a dopamine D2 agonist, and then took Kratom I felt kinda depressed because Kratom contains a D2 antagonist.

 

[Mjäll]

I think mu opioid and adrenergic receptors are the main mechanisms.

5HT2A antagonism seems like a minor part of the effect, if any.

Why would 5HT2A antagonism be antidepressant? Sounds more like depression to me, if anything. Antipsychotics are often 5HT2A antagonists and are used to numb people down so they have a boring ass time but don't get any ideas.

Anyway you simply took more than you like so take less.

 

[Juicewrldfan]

Thanks for the feedback! Perhaps I took a large enough dose for it to cause depressive symptoms and agitation then at the 5ht2a receptor. I’m not sure what mechanism caused the depression. I have very limited understanding of nueropharmacology. But there are many anecdotal experiences on Reddit of people experiencing the same symptoms in too high doses.

But it does make sense what you all said about it having weak action at the 5ht2a receptor.

I am currently down to only 3 grams a dose and am working on getting lower as I am just one of the unlucky people that is experiencing too many side effects. I am for kratom I just am experiencing severe tinnitus for example even since I dropped my dose from 20 grams a dose 3 times a day to 3 grams per dose. And I get pain in my left ear as well so I fear that it is going to damage my hearing long term.

I did start taking a 50x black diamond extract though last week, but the tinnitus started before I got that and is just getting worse.

It definitely is from the kratom because I always experience it shortly after dosing and it stays for the duration of the day with infrequent pain in my ear.

 

[JackARoe]

I can get depressed to on kratom. Not all the time. I mean I can get depressed when I am not on kratom too. But one side effect I have been getting more and it lessened when I cut my intake to 1/2 of what I was taking. Irritability. Cranky, A habit of mumbling I hate this life under my breath. (I am sure we all have had that)

I know it gets thrown out there a lot, but for me I don't see the adrenergic action of kratom. Yes I can get stimulated, but it seems to be the same stimulation as any other opiate induced energy. (house cleaning on opiates is common) I mean I know ephedra and yohimbe are adrenergic. And if I took any of those in the middle of the night I would up all night. But people take kratom to sleep too. So it has always been my worthless (or two cent) opinion that maybe kratom is different from ephedra in adrenegica activity. Just a thought and I do go back to the list of alks in kratom. Makes me wonder if one of those alkaloids are truly adrenergic we could find which one and test it on it's own. But I can say heroin, poppy tea and other opiates totally give me energy.

I want to taper off. Waiting for the time and money (yeah yeah aren't we all). Life is too busy to fully quit but very happy to have gone from 50 gr a day to 25-30 gr a day. I have to say I think one of the main advantages of kratom is the ability to taper without issue. Lately I have been feeling better when I skip kratom after taking it daily for some years. It has been a blessing, exccept I do not know what I am doing alive as I always felt I was suppose to kick off from an OD years back But kratom stopped me from going to the street and that alone is harm reduction.

Please dont get mad at me, but my opinions that the "hair loss" side effect of kratom seen on Reddit is BS. I m just astounded at how rumors and folklore come about.

 

[Mjäll]

I can get depressed to on kratom. Not all the time. I mean I can get depressed when I am not on kratom too. But one side effect I have been getting more and it lessened when I cut my intake to 1/2 of what I was taking. Irritability. Cranky, A habit of mumbling I hate this life under my breath. (I am sure we all have had that)

I know it gets thrown out there a lot, but for me I don't see the adrenergic action of kratom. Yes I can get stimulated, but it seems to be the same stimulation as any other opiate induced energy. (house cleaning on opiates is common) I mean I know ephedra and yohimbe are adrenergic. And if I took any of those in the middle of the night I would up all night. But people take kratom to sleep too. So it has always been my worthless (or two cent) opinion that maybe kratom is different from ephedra in adrenegica activity. Just a thought and I do go back to the list of alks in kratom. Makes me wonder if one of those alkaloids are truly adrenergic we could find which one and test it on it's own. But I can say heroin, poppy tea and other opiates totally give me energy.

I want to taper off. Waiting for the time and money (yeah yeah aren't we all). Life is too busy to fully quit but very happy to have gone from 50 gr a day to 25-30 gr a day. I have to say I think one of the main advantages of kratom is the ability to taper without issue. Lately I have been feeling better when I skip kratom after taking it daily for some years. It has been a blessing, exccept I do not know what I am doing alive as I always felt I was suppose to kick off from an OD years back But kratom stopped me from going to the street and that alone is harm reduction.

I will say it again.I think unless you are a pain patient or someone that has tons of experience with opiates I do not recommend kratom. People get surprised that they get withdrawals. Short lived but totally uncomfy. Luckly comfort meds help cover up kratom withdrawal. 1800 mgs of gabapentin in he midst of a kratom withdrawal and it about got rid of every symptom. Not sure that it is strong enough for the heavier opiates but I have heard some success stories.

Adrenergic action is complex and sometimes counter-intuitive, from what i gather.

Ephedrine increases noradrenaline. I think kratom rather suppresses it. I think it depends on what adrenergic receptor (for kratom, alpha2) and perhaps whether it's pre- or post-synaptic. Could be the opioid relaxation dominating completely, though.

 

[Mjäll]

Thanks for the feedback! Perhaps I took a large enough dose for it to cause depressive symptoms and agitation then at the 5ht2a receptor. I’m not sure what mechanism caused the depression. I have very limited understanding of nueropharmacology. But there are many anecdotal experiences on Reddit of people experiencing the same symptoms in too high doses.

But it does make sense what you all said about it having weak action at the 5ht2a receptor.

I am currently down to only 3 grams a dose and am working on getting lower as I am just one of the unlucky people that is experiencing too many side effects. I am for kratom I just am experiencing severe tinnitus for example even since I dropped my dose from 20 grams a dose 3 times a day to 3 grams per dose. And I get pain in my left ear as well so I fear that it is going to damage my hearing long term.

I did start taking a 50x black diamond extract though last week, but the tinnitus started before I got that and is just getting worse.

It definitely is from the kratom because I always experience it shortly after dosing and it stays for the duration of the day with infrequent pain in my ear.

60 gram per day is a very high dose but you know that.

Kratom has affected my ears and skull pressure but in a good way. I think maybe opioid activity can influence posture in very subtle ways that can be good or bad.

 

[Didgital]

Id like to point out there is so much we don't understand about the pharmacology off the many many compounds found in the plant especially how they synergize. There really is a lot of pharmacology going on with mu opioid receptor antagonism as well as agonism plus action at serotonin, dopamine, adrenergic, and even NMDA receptor systems. There's also tons of bad information and so called experts out there that don't really know what they're talking about

What's causing your personal issue I cant be certain, but sounds like you might want to lower your dosage and see if you can minimize the negative effects. Or you could also try switching to a different variety? The dif types actually indicates age of the plant and location more than specific genetic strains. I'm pretty sure the more mature plants (red veined) produce the oxygenated and more potent alkaloids.

I have a story where I gave a friend 2 extract samples, 1st was 100mg of 93% Mitragynine and then 200mg of 30% mitragynine and 30% of other detectable alkaloids (speciocillatine, paynantheine, speciogynine, etc). Its very likely the total alkaloid content was much higher, but current analytics generally can only test for 11 out of 60 potential alkaloids.

She very much enjoyed the 93mg of pure mitragynine. Warm euphoria, mildly stimulating relaxation.

She got terribly ill for many hours from the full spec extract which only contained 60mg of mitragynine. Nausea, dizziness and puked.

 

[Juicewrldfan]

Id like to point out there is so much we don't understand about the pharmacology off the many many compounds found in the plant especially how they synergize. There really is a lot of pharmacology going on with mu opioid receptor antagonism as well as agonism plus action at serotonin, dopamine, adrenergic, and even NMDA receptor systems. There's also tons of bad information and so called experts out there that don't really know what they're talking about

What's causing your personal issue I cant be certain, but sounds like you might want to lower your dosage and see if you can minimize the negative effects. Or you could also try switching to a different variety? The dif types actually indicates age of the plant and location more than specific genetic strains. I'm pretty sure the more mature plants (red veined) produce the oxygenated and more potent alkaloids.

I have a story where I gave a friend 2 extract samples, 1st was 100mg of 93% Mitragynine and then 200mg of 30% mitragynine and 30% of other detectable alkaloids (speciocillatine, paynantheine, speciogynine, etc). Its very likely the total alkaloid content was much higher, but current analytics generally can only test for 11 out of 60 potential alkaloids.

She very much enjoyed the 93mg of pure mitragynine. Warm euphoria, mildly stimulating relaxation.

She got terribly ill for many hours from the full spec extract which only contained 60mg of mitragynine. Nausea, dizziness and puked.

Thanks for your feedback! Yeah, I figured out I was just taking entirely too much for my personal body’s make up. I reduced my dose down to 2 grams sometimes twice a day and sometimes 3 times a day and the only side effect I get now occasionally is tinnitus and some rarely now very infrequent mild pain in my left ear, but I usually don’t get that anymore either.

 

[jasperkent]

I've had anxiety and/or depression for all of my life. Kratom has helped me to some extent but definitely has negative consequences too. Just remember, y'all-- things could be worse...

 

[Jabberwocky]

Kratom is such a finicky thing. Each vendor, each strain, and each different batch of that strain can have anywhere from wildly different to slightly nuanced differences.

Some strains or bad batches can have side effects. I have experienced some dysphoria before, especially if my tolerance is high, but for me the positive effects generally outweigh it.

@Juicewrldfan I suggest exploring a different strain or vendor. Also I HIGHLY advise not buying it from a headshop, those brands suck pretty bad. There is some good stuff to be had there, but it's a crapshoot. Buying from a reputable online small batch vendor is important.

The difference between bad kratom and good kratom is like the difference between coffee and cocaine.

It's also important to find the strain and dose that works best for you. Everyone has a unique chemistry.

Once you dial in on the best for you, kratom can be quite amazing with minimal side effects and great positive effects.

 

[Madrus]

>kratom causing depression
stop taking kratom?

 

[JackARoe]

>kratom causing depression
stop taking kratom?

Patient: Doc it hurts me when I bend my arm this way
Doc: Don't bend your arm that way.

Life can be that simple. If it rains you go inside. When it stops you go out.

I get a depression from kratom that I get with all opioids. Not all the time though and not all due to kratom. Causation a long way off still for me.

 

[JonnyDeath]

Drugs/chemicals that modulate the same receptors that can exchange information with opiates are known to cause mild SSRI and SNRI effects. When I went off tramadol, this effect was brutal so I looked it up and just as I assumed, it has a mild SSRI/SNRI effect.
That never happened when I had been on narco etc. and without double checking, I believe tramadol produces the SNRI effect and withdrawal.

On Kratom, however, I noticed it mildly after I went off, but for me it was mild enough that a simple distraction or going outside to get busy or play sports was more than enough. I think for me, even video games would be enough which I rarely ever play.

Anyway, the mild depression from Kratom was identically to the severe dismay and dead empty feeling when I quit tramadol, just 1% of the same level. I ended up hear reading about nightmare stories about it from people who had been intravenous heroin users for 10 or literally 20 years.
They said for them, the tramadol withdrawal was unbelievably worse it was so sever.

My final point is that for some people, withdrawing from Kratom might be equivalent to the tramadol stories of others. After I became used to Kratom through sparing use but sometimes on it for a few weeks, I no longer get any side effects when I stop.
It does however brutally effect how much pain and inability I suffer from my blown out left shoulder/scapula. Being off of it also has a tremendously negative effect on how much I can get done for certain days. Some of that is mood, but majority is due to the shoulder making me incapable of functioning.

Narco, Neurotin, tramadol and even morphine do jack F'ing shit for my shoulder but Kratom makes it 100% functional and pain free. This probably plays a significant role in why I experienced almost no side effects and they subsided entirely once my body became used to it, even quitting all at once.