Opioids Kratom and suboxone

[MyPinkShadow]

I've read the search results, but I didnt really get an answer. I'm ridiculously addicted to kratom. I take 24 caps when I wake up, and 12 caps every 2 hours, until 7pm. I have a neck injury from 5 years of toss and wash. [I use capsules for portability and discretion, and empty each one into my mouth] I have tried to quit si many times. I went to a suboxone clinic, they gave my 3 effing strips a day. Even I know that that's way too much. I'm switching tomorrow morning. I'm scared.
I usually take 24 caps when I wake up, how much of this shit should I take? I strip in the am? My "doctor" I saw said I'm the worse kratom case hes ever seen. Gross. I do it in secret, away from everyone I know. I don't even feel it anymore.
Help.

 

[Xorkoth]

In my experience, no matter how much kratom you take, 2-4mg of suboxone is fine. Thing about suboxone is, it doesn't really affect you more strongly if you take more than the amount needed to saturate your receptors (which is 2-4mg).

Suboxone works really well against kratom because it's also a partial agonist, but a stronger one, so you actually should feel quite nic for a little while until you get used to it, then you'll just feel normal but you won't be stuck redosing every 2 hours and still feeling on the edge of withdrawal.

I get it... I also got on suboxone mainly because of kratom. I was also scared because I was finding myself picking up some stronger opioids, and I didn't want to go down that road. But basically, I felt totally trapped on kratom... I was dosing, at one point, up to 100 grams a day, and never felt good on it anymore, I was either feeling on the edge of withdrawal, or in withdrawal.

 

[burn out]

I used codeine to quit kratom. It worked great, I basically felt no acute withdrawals and just had about 6 weeks of feeling off but not even bad enough to make me miss work and that was that.

 

[MyPinkShadow]

I am so confused. I took 4mg Suboxone and waited for it to kick in. I felt anxious, my eyes were watering, I was exhausted. I ended up taking my morning dose of Kratom. Now I feel fine. I thought the Suboxone would make the kratom ineffective? The subs expire 2/23, so maybe that's why? Although I read that that doesn't matter. Maybe I needed the whole strip? That was my "out" plan,now I'm wondering how I'll ever quit..

 

[Nurse Ratched]

Kratom has 40 alkaloids. The mitragynine alkoloid ( which is why you are taking the subs ) is only one of them. You also have to WD from the other 39 alkoloids in kratom and the subs aren't going to help you.

The subs will replace the partial opioid agonism of the kratom but not the rest. I suggest Lyrica or gabapentin for the other 39 alkaloids that your body is craving. The subs will only work for a very small amount of your issues.

Maybe a low dose benzo ( 10 mgs valium for the anxiety a) and Lyrica or gabapentin for the rest of the symptoms.

Good luck and stay strong !!

 

[Xorkoth]

I am so confused. I took 4mg Suboxone and waited for it to kick in. I felt anxious, my eyes were watering, I was exhausted. I ended up taking my morning dose of Kratom. Now I feel fine. I thought the Suboxone would make the kratom ineffective? The subs expire 2/23, so maybe that's why? Although I read that that doesn't matter. Maybe I needed the whole strip? That was my "out" plan,now I'm wondering how I'll ever quit..

I have always felt 100% fine taking suboxone to come off kratom, and furthermore, I can't feel literally anything from kratom after I take suboxone, for like 2 days after. In fact even after being on 50+ grams a day of kratom for a long period of time, just 2mg of suboxone had me feeling actually slightly euphoric and I felt farther away from withdrawals than I was at 50 grams of kratom per day (high dose kratom always has me feeling never totally good, always on the edge of withdrawal)

Did you take the suboxone properly? What form do you have? is it pills? Suboxone is not active orally, you have to let it dissolve in your mouth/under your tongue (personally I prefer between my cheek and gum as it absorbs better there)

 

[Xorkoth]

Kratom has 40 alkaloids. The mitragynine alkoloid ( which is why you are taking the subs ) is only one of them. You also have to WD from the other 39 alkoloids in kratom and the subs aren't going to help you.

The subs will replace the partial opioid agonism of the kratom but not the rest. I suggest Lyrica or gabapentin for the other 39 alkaloids that your body is craving. The subs will only work for a very small amount of your issues.

Maybe a low dose benzo ( 10 mgs valium for the anxiety a) and Lyrica or gabapentin for the rest of the symptoms.

Good luck and stay strong !!

I find the evidence that the other alkaloids are significantly physically addictive to be dubious. From wiki:

"Kratom contains at least 54 alkaloids.[67][68][69] These include mitragynine, 7-hydroxymitragynine (7-HMG), speciociliatine, paynantheine, corynantheidine, speciogynine, mitraphylline, rhynchophylline, mitralactonal, raubasine, and mitragynaline.[39][10][11] The alkaloids mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine are responsible for many of the complex effects of kratom,[10][11] but other alkaloids may also contribute synergistically.[39] Both mitragynine and 7-HMG are partial agonists of the μ-opioid receptor and competitive antagonists of the δ-opioid receptor with low affinity for the κ-opioid receptor.[39][50] 7-HMG appears to have higher affinity at the μ-opioid receptor than mitragynine.[70][71] These compounds display functional selectivity and do not activate the β-arrestin pathway partly responsible for the respiratory depression, constipation, and sedation associated with traditional opioids.[39][72] Both mitragynine and 7-HMG readily cross the blood-brain barrier.[50][73] Mitragynine also appears to inhibit COX-2, block L-type and T-type calcium channels, and interact with other receptors in the brain including 5-HT2C and 5-HT7 serotonin receptors, D2 dopamine receptors, and A2A adenosine receptors.[39] Mitragynine stimulates α2-adrenergic receptors, inhibiting the release of norepinephrine (noradrenaline); other compounds in this class include dexmedetomidine, which is used for sedation, and clonidine, which is used to manage anxiety and some symptoms of opioid withdrawal. This activity might explain why kratom can be dangerous when used in combination with other sedatives.[71] Kratom also contains rhynchophylline, a non-competitive NMDA receptor antagonist.[10][74] Mitragynine is metabolized in humans via phase I and phase II mechanisms with the resulting metabolites excreted in urine.[10] In in vitro experiments, kratom extracts inhibited CYP3A4, CYP2D6, and CYP1A2 enzymes, which results in significant potential for drug interactions.[10]"

Kratom contains actually 54 or more alkaloids, two of which are opioid agonists. The primary two alkaloids, M and 7-HO-M, are both partial agonists of the mu opioid receptors. Kratom also contains serotonin and D2 dopamine agonists, which are not known to be physically addictive, to my knowledge. It also contains calcium channel blockers, which could be addictive to some extent, as well as an NMDA antagonist, which is not physically addictive.

COX-2 inhibition means that it acts like some non-opioid pain relievers... I've never heard of any COX inhibitors being addictive.

The a2-adrenergic receptor activation may actually be somewhat dependence-forming, or at least have a rebound, as I know clonidine can cause rebound anxiety and blood pressure raising when stopped abruptly after steady use.

All that said, I have always found other opioids to completely substitute for kratom... when I was taking 100 grams per day for years, a dose of morphine would have me feeling amazing, with not the slightest hint of withdrawal poking through. And like I said, suboxone also entirely makes me feel fine.

My best guess would be that the person took the suboxone in a way that didn't let it absorb. My main reason for saying that is because they said that after taking the suboxone, taking more kratom made them feel better. Like I said, my experience has been that after suboxone, taking kratom is like eating grass, it does absolutely nothing.

Thgat said, I have also talked to peopl on here who say that they can take kratom on top of suboxone. So it may be that there are individual metabolic factors that we do not understand, which can cause very different reactions among different people.

 

[Xorkoth]

I am so confused. I took 4mg Suboxone and waited for it to kick in. I felt anxious, my eyes were watering, I was exhausted. I ended up taking my morning dose of Kratom. Now I feel fine. I thought the Suboxone would make the kratom ineffective? The subs expire 2/23, so maybe that's why? Although I read that that doesn't matter. Maybe I needed the whole strip? That was my "out" plan,now I'm wondering how I'll ever quit..

Oh, you said it was a strip. Did you attach the strip to the side of your cheek, and let it dissolve, taking care not to swallow the strip? Personally I dislike the strips I have an easier time with the pills, plus you can snort them which has like twice the bioavailability. How long did you wait? Suboxone tales a good 2 hours to fully kick in.

It's possible you also need a whole strip, but that is unlikely, in the past, 2mg has always been enough for me, regardless of how much kratom I was taking.

 

[Nurse Ratched]

54 alkaloids. Damn......more than they used to publish on the AKA website. Used to be just 40 that were listed about a year ago or so.

Yeah, kratom's a weird one. The other alkaloids ( sans mitragynine ) must not be physically addicting per the article but I wonder if our body doesn't get used to them anyway and crave them when we stop.....hence us feeling like we are in WD.

I hope anyone that is taking subs to ease their habit has good luck with it. Eating that much powder everyday has to be a pain and 2-4 mgs of suboxone sounds like the right way to go instead. Good luck OP

 

[Xorkoth]

I'm sure that some of the other alkaloids contribute to not feeling quite right, almost no doubt about that... I pretty well doubt that you would experience opiate withdrawal symptoms from their lack, though.

I would say that, for me, suboxone has been far better in terms of me living a stable and comfortable life, than the kratom rollercoaster. It's not at all moreish, and I spend $10 a month for my prescription co-pay instead of hundreds. The withdrawal will last a long time, but since it's not moreish and I don't feel anything (anymore) from it, I will be able to taper slowly down to an extremely low dose, so hopefully it's not going to be too painful when I jump off.

However, many people can maintain a normal life on kratom and dose just small amounts, and not escalate their usage, and get off of it easily. While others of us can't, and experience very bad withdrawals from it. For most people, I would say that using suboxone to get off kratom is a terrible idea, but it was eventually the way I chose to go for myself.

 

[plumbus-nine]

Wow, now it's already 54 alkaloids. Used to be forty. Bet there are more than 60 actually but unfortunately most just in trace amounts, would be great to have a herbal dissociative but Kratom never felt like one.

Only symptom I get from a Kratom turkey is restlessness but that one quite bad. Wonder what alkaloid is responsible for that. Somehow I think it's something else than mu because I don't get much of mu effects from Kratom nor did morphine cause the same restlessness.

 

[Xorkoth]

I get worse restlessness from kratom withdrawal than any full agonist opioid. I also get other opioid withdrawal symptoms (runny nose, watery eyes, anxiety, depression, anhedonia, a feeling of deep hopelessness, and overwhelming amounts of craving), but those are a little less strong than full agonists... and unlike full agonists, I don't get sick at all, as in, I do not get the shits or nausea.

However the RLS is unbearable. That is the worst part of opiate withdrawal for me anyway, but with kratom it is full-on akathisia. It's not just the legs, but it's at least as bad in my arms, really it's full body. Feels like every second is hell, my my skeleton wants to crawl out of my skin. And it lasts for a week or more. By the night of the 5th day I am just lying in bed, thrashing around, entirely unable to sleep the whole time, going insane from sleep deprivation besides, screaming and punching my legs over and over and over again until my arms are tired and my legs go numb. Just for 2 minutes of relief from the overwhelming need to move and stretch my limbs.

The only thing that helps is a hot shower. For some reason, during that, I can stay still and not feel like I'm going insane. Unfortunately, you can't stay in a hot shower 24/7.

All that to say, you may be onto something, that there is something in kratom beyond the mu agonism that accounts for some of the withdrawal. But I do get pretty intense akathisia from all opioid withdrawals. It's just the worst with kratom.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Personally when I don't feel kratom I just start taking enough not to feel any widthdrawals and maybe a tiny bit more. I never push it because after years of daily use there's just no point. My doses are actually quite small in comparison after all this time because of it lol. I don't expect to enjoy kratom that much but it takes the edge off from life and helps a bit with feeling gloomy. After a few days of that even, I'll be able to take my normal doses once again and actually feel the kratom effects very pronounced. Its a constant cycle of not feeling it at all > into suddenly feeling it just fine. You can't rly be impatient about any of this stuff its too hard to rush if you want to quit and takes time/relapses probably.

If you want to quit kratom entirely that's up to you. The withdrawal makes me want to off myself from perpetual restless body to the point I would rather redose than feel anymore of it. However, it is brief and 5 days of misery (but with suboxone you could greatly cut your kratom dose back tremendously while you're on both) and then take the kratom again at smaller doses--and actually feel it. Suboxone always helps me feel kratom again when I'm off the suboxone + opiates can be felt 100% again--since suboxone has a residual wall built into it that lasts 1-2+ days after the last strip was taken even.

Kratom can ruin someone's life I suppose. I'd rather ruin my life on something that doesn't kill me though.. I've yet to get off this stuff too so not like I'm the best at quitting drugs. THAT SAID, everyone on this board who is horribly addicted to kratom and quit say the same thing they told me: Taper down so gradually you never feel a withdrawal. Kratom is powder so you can slowly make the doses smaller over such a long time period, and jump off the kratom 100% without much sickness. You know as someone who swallows 2 lil spoonfulls of kratom like 3-4x a day, I'm shocked at the doses of other people. Somehow years and years of use and my doses are so petite and I can still feel them on a good day. If I took huge doses it would be dysphoric. My tolerance to adderall though is probably.... not good.

 

[KBL0606]

I'm sure that some of the other alkaloids contribute to not feeling quite right, almost no doubt about that... I pretty well doubt that you would experience opiate withdrawal symptoms from their lack, though.

I would say that, for me, suboxone has been far better in terms of me living a stable and comfortable life, than the kratom rollercoaster. It's not at all moreish, and I spend $10 a month for my prescription co-pay instead of hundreds. The withdrawal will last a long time, but since it's not moreish and I don't feel anything (anymore) from it, I will be able to taper slowly down to an extremely low dose, so hopefully it's not going to be too painful when I jump off.

However, many people can maintain a normal life on kratom and dose just small amounts, and not escalate their usage, and get off of it easily. While others of us can't, and experience very bad withdrawals from it. For most people, I would say that using suboxone to get off kratom is a terrible idea, but it was eventually the way I chose to go for myself.

To your point about Kratom and opiate withdrawals; I am in chronic pain from a knee replacement surgery infection, that lead to an additional 11 surgeries in three years, that ultimately lead to an above knee amputation. Anyway, I am on 20mg OxyContin ER, 90mg Oxycodone IR and 500mg Lyrica a day and it’s all still not quite enough to manage the pain 100%. I have run out of the IR Oxy three days early this month and when I was in the local dispensary yesterday buying CBD, D8, Live Resin CBD, etc., the girl helping me out asked if I had ever tried Kratom for pain/withdrawal relief, and I had not. So I bought some Red Maeng Da 1mg capsules from her and popped about 4mg on my drive home. By the time I arrived home I felt absolutely wonderful! I have been taking about 10mg a day the past two days with 400mg of the Lyrica and I’ve had no withdrawals at all. And I mean none!! The live resin full spectrum CBD and a 25mg D8 gummy help me sleep, but the Kratom is definitely great for staving off opiate withdrawals.

 

[CfZrx]

I have a neck injury from 5 years of toss and wash.

You hurt your neck from too many tosses?
Also, I just saw a new article on using 5mcg butrans atch to battle kratom WDs!

 

[Vrachox]

I just take 4mg of bupe and some mile doses od krstom.
I feel very well right now

 

[thebigd^]

Im still on the fence about mixing the two... in assisted living, I have to take 16mg at one time. I used to be on max Subs at 24 when homeless.

I feel like kanna is the better option, but after the rush via insufflation it comes to a calm very euphoric state.

 

[thebigd^]

Im on

Im still on the fence about mixing the two... in assisted living, I have to take 16mg at one time. I used to be on max Subs at 24 when homeless.

I feel like kanna is the better option, but after the rush via insufflation it comes to a calm very euphoric state.

As I take two 8's in the morning, I split one in half railed that and have the other pieces under my tounge. As I went to snort the line, I had a flashback (ptsd) of doing this homeless. I took three 8's per day the max. I currently feel a rush - but this shit stings more than I remember now.
Also thinking the drip is gunna suck ass and drip out my nostril if I dont constantly sniff. Def feel a warm blanket starting and some head rush but I think I am glad I didnt do the entire 8mg as wow this is defo clogging. Still burns - this was a test and nothing more. Tomorrow ill go back to sublingual. I use 100x kanna and it comes with a coke scoop and yeah, wont be able to use this nostril anytime soon.