Kratom and Serotonin

[roberr]

OK, I've been lurking around this site for quite a while and have gleaned much valuable information, so I finally decided to register. I have been battling alcohol addiction for many years and have just come across kratom. It seems to do wonders for dealing with alcohol withdrawal. I understand it is addictive; however, I am willing to risk this in order to get off the booze. My question is this: Does kratom have any serotonergic properties? I take 20 mg Lexapro once a day as well as buspirione 10 mg bid. I worry a bit about serotonin syndrome. I take about one teaspoon (toss and wash), roughly 4.5 grams of bali leaf powder tid. Any thoughts?

 

[weekend addiction]

I think its pretty safe but it may alter the way your medicine works.

 

[sghouston5]

Step 1) Ween off all meds under medical supervision.
Step 2) Don't take anything for a good 30 days or more.
Step 3) Obtain 120mg of high quality MDMA. Take it, and be sure to stay hydrated.

After your experience rolling for your first time, you will literally realize how fucking retarded alcohol is. All of it will just click. I used to get drunk DAILY and thought it was "the shit" to go out clubbing drunk or sitting at home drunk, just turning myself into a dumbass zombie basically. But then I took the chance on some ecstasy and wow it opened my eyes. You will only see what I am talking about after you roll. Now I don't touch alcohol with a ten foot pole.

I am not directly recommending per say to abuse drugs, I am just sharing my own personal experience. Ask anyone here who has ever rolled, and they will tell you that you will definitely see things much differently and learn more about yourself and have enough self-respect to stop after such a positive experience. It is SO theraputic and it would destroy the companies that make anti-depressants if people found out how truly effective REAL ecstasy is (not bunk grabage).

Please give it some thought. The minute you peak you will be like "Damn I HAVE NEVER FELT THIS WAY BEFORE FUUUUUUUUUUUCK ALCOHOL" lol.

 

[roberr]

Thank you for the replies. I agree, I'm sick of alcohol. Anyone else have scientific knowledge regarding kratom's affects on neurotransmitters ?

 

[sghouston5]

Thank you for the replies. I agree, I'm sick of alcohol. Anyone else have scientific knowledge regarding kratom's affects on neurotransmitters ?

Kratom is an opiod agonist and only affects the opiate receptors. It's mechanism of action is similar to morphine. It's an analgesic, used for pain in higher doses and a stimulant in lower doses.

Kratom has some recreational value but the taste is almost unbearable and nausea accompanied with vomiting is common in higher doses. Kratom won't really do anything for your serotonin levels, it just does the same thing any other opiates do generally with minor differences.

I admire your willingness to try something new, it can really open your eyes. Have you ever tried a couple of Lortab? Very euphoric for the first time user and very easy to manage. What about Marijuana even? Ecstasy is a bit of a jump but it's definitely not something you would regret. I can assure that

 

[TheLostBoys]

Yeah, get away from alcohol .......quitting will benefit you in do many ways.

Kratom does not mess with serotonin......you're 100% fine.

 

[roberr]

Thank you all so much! It's relieving to know that kratom doesn't act on serotonin.

I have used the search function and have acquired some very useful knowledge. However, starting this thread allows me to bounce questions and ideas off of those more knowledgeable and experienced than I.

The reason I've never tried the other drugs listed above, with the exception of marijuana, which I enjoyed very much in the past, is because of the legal aspects. Marijuana should absolutely be legal, but it isn't, at least where I live.

Regarding kratom, for someone who's naive to opiate use, how long does it take for tolerance to develop? I'd like to take it daily for a while until my alcohol use/withdrawal has subsided. However, obviously, I don't want to trade one addiction for another.

How bad are the withdrawals from say 15 grams a day for a month. I've been through benzodiazepine withdrawal after taking clonazepam daily for 8 months, and it honestly was the worst experience I've ever been through in my 40+ years on this planet...endless suffering. It's what eventually lead me back to the bottle. I've withdrawn from alcohol many times, and it certainly isn't a walk in the park, either. How does kratom withdrawal compare to both?

Thank you so much for your time and insights!

 

[sghouston5]

Thank you all so much! It's relieving to know that kratom doesn't act on serotonin.

I have used the search function and have acquired some very useful knowledge. However, starting this thread allows me to bounce questions and ideas off of those more knowledgeable and experienced than I.

The reason I've never tried the other drugs listed above, with the exception of marijuana, which I enjoyed very much in the past, is because of the legal aspects. Marijuana should absolutely be legal, but it isn't, at least where I live.

Regarding kratom, for someone who's naive to opiate use, how long does it take for tolerance to develop? I'd like to take it daily for a while until my alcohol use/withdrawal has subsided. However, obviously, I don't want to trade one addiction for another.

How bad are the withdrawals from say 15 grams a day for a month. I've been through benzodiazepine withdrawal after taking clonazepam daily for 8 months, and it honestly was the worst experience I've ever been through in my 40+ years on this planet...endless suffering. It's what eventually lead me back to the bottle. I've withdrawn from alcohol many times, and it certainly isn't a walk in the park, either. How does kratom withdrawal compare to both?

Thank you so much for your time and insights!

Kratom withdrawal can be bad, but it's not "as bad" as other opiate withdrawals for sure. Kratom in fact is used to help the withdrawal symptoms of other opiates. Kratom is not as addictive as other opiates because it has a lower affinity for the weaker opiate receptors. If you use it at that medium dose for thirty days, a slight psycological dependence (not physical dependence) might develop, i.e. - the pleasure of the drug is nice to think about and you want to redose just because you remember how it feels.

Let me tell you something about the "legality" of substances though. While drugs may be legal, that does NOT make them "bad". The media demonizes the use of drugs and ONLY shows the negative aspects of the effects of drugs. Drugs themselves are harmless, but people abusing the drugs is what causes the harm. Any form of abuse causes harm, eating too much, exercising too much, smoking too much, and so on. That being said, people are brought up their entire lives brainwashed to "the governments will". If the government says its bad, you shouldn't do it. But let's forget about all the bad things the government has done. The government is not perfect and they are certainly no role models to set examples for society. You think all those corrupt politicians don't do drugs with all that money and power?? Are you kidding? They make drugs illegal, because it generates money. They can take more money from taxpayers and turn it into funding for the DEA to seize dealer profit money and drugs and weapons.

Alcohol is the buzz the government and the big companies WANT you to have. Why? Because it kills people off. Because they make money from it. Because other substances (that are much safer) would EASILY defeat alcohol in sales and destroy those big companies and lobbyist investors. Same goes for nicotine. What a horrible....horrible...drug of choice humanity has chosen....fucking ALCOHOL ... seriously? As a human race...THAT is the common drug of choice that was made legal? Alcohol causes violence in so many homes, resulting in domestic abuse. It ruins lives, it destroys families, it literally kills people, and it is easily available at the corner store. Any given person can literally walk into a store, purchase enough alcohol, drink it, and be dead from alcohol poisoning within ONE HOUR. And they stick cute labels on it too. "Captain Morgan"? "Crown Royal"? "Blue Moon" ? What the fuck? Then they have the commericials, making it look "cool to drink", and they have movies with people abusing alcohol to combat depression (like Robert Downey Jr. in Charlie Bartlett) , or to show off "how funny someone can act and the things they do while drunk" (The Hangover). They want to keep the morons simple and happy with the average ole' "six pack o beer" and "a pack a smokes" every friday "after a hard days work". You really want to live your life that way? You really want to live "in the matrix"? All things aside, I know that the abuse of alcohol is what harms people, but if the media keeps on pushing the idea of drinking to people like they do, of course it's going to get abused.

Go do some real research, in fact this site is one of the best places to find out the truth. Just because a doctor doesn't write you a prescription for something doesn't mean he is right. Sure he went to med school, but he is also a human, and humans have opinions and every human is different. I have had several doctors prescribe me very VERY dangerous medication combinations telling me "I would be fine" even after I questioned the combination, only for me to wind up in the hospital days later due to their poor judgement. Only YOU know what's best for you. Doctors can help, but when it comes down to it, you are the only one who lives inside your head. Not the doctor, not your mom or dad, YOU. Rise above it. Take charge of your life. I know that you have probably heard or read at some point in your life advice like this from someone like me and probably igonored it, but there are many of us who are starting to "realize the truth"

My observations described above, all happened within the first 15 minutes i started rolling for my first time. It made THAT huge of an impact on the way I think. It removed and lifed some huge walls for me, yet doctors want to keep people hooked on anti-depressants for the rest of their lives. Sorry, but I refuse. Just my two cents

See things for the way the are, rather than the way they seem.

 

[roberr]

sghouston5,

Thank you for sharing your knowledge of kratom. Your pharmacological insights on dependency are most welcomed.

Regarding legality, your points are taken and well received. When I was younger, I found myself more inclined to "fight the establishment." However, with responsibilities and having people who rely on me, how can I afford to take the chance of ending up in jail? The answer is, I can't.

Go do some real research, in fact this site is one of the best places to find out the truth. Just because a doctor doesn't write you a prescription for something doesn't mean he is right. Sure he went to med school, but he is also a human, and humans have opinions and every human is different. I have had several doctors prescribe me very VERY dangerous medication combinations telling me "I would be fine" even after I questioned the combination, only for me to wind up in the hospital days later due to their poor judgement. Only YOU know what's best for you. Doctors can help, but when it comes down to it, you are the only one who lives inside your head. Not the doctor, not your mom or dad, YOU. Rise above it. Take charge of your life. I know that you have probably heard or read at some point in your life advice like this from someone like me and probably igonored it, but there are many of us who are starting to "realize the truth"

I agree with you that doctors can help, but they are human and can make mistakes. How benzodiazepines can be legal, while certain other drugs are not, is beyond me. Even now, if I read an article or view a post regarding benzodiazepines, I shudder...literally shudder.

 

[sghouston5]

The likeliehood of someone ending up in jail at your age for a first time offense with a controlled substance (at a low dose) is highly unlikely. Seperate from that, there are many precautions you can take to even prevent such a thing. I am not encouraging it, but it is much easier to do than you might think. The only real way people get caught is doing something to warrant the attention of authority or telling others about their habits. Never confide any legality issues in those closest to you if you want to never worry about them using it against you, because they will.

I too have a family, and through careful measure I have been able to enjoy myself. All things in moderation. It's those who get addicted, act recklessly, draw too much attention to themselves and don't cover their tracks that get caught. No one is perfect and people can still be caught, but it is far less likely for someone who is quiet, rarely uses substances and doesn't cause trouble ever to be noticeable on the radar. You really think the DEA/FBI/Police are going to bust your chops and break down your door then give you a life sentence for one dose of MDMA? They are looking for the big fish, the mass producers. That's where the money is at, and that's where they go.

I know it's a bit odd to advocate such activities, but all I am advocating is one dose of MDMA. Just give it a try, you live one life, and you can see your life in a whole different light if you gave it a chance. It's effects are obviously greatly beneficial, read many of the reports on Erowid and note that all of them are "life-changing". A common misconception about MDMA is "it just makes you horny and want to have sex, your body sensations get mixed up and it feels weird". Real MDMA does NONE of that. I can't explain what it does, you just...have to do it. It literally changed my life for the better and from one man to another I really recommend giving a small dose a try. It will not kill you, and you won't get arrested. I spent many months dealing with benzo withdrawals at one point in my life, and I am sure you can attest that it's a living hell on earth.

But then I tried it, and all my mental problems were solved. All the noise died down. Everything became right with the world. I won't push it any further and I am glad you are at least searching for answers...but please please please give it a chance. It will save your life.

 

[《Plasticity》]

I don't have alot of time but I just wanted to say that a month at 15g a day is MORE than enough to cause physical dependancy. It took me about three weeks at 1-2 5g doses a day to get the train rollin for me, definately more than just a mental addiction... Are kratom withdrawals nasty? Sure, they're not pleasant but they're not the worst either. They last about 5-7 days for me and can easily be relieved with gabapentin, baclofen, cannabis, and the occasional benzo or etizolam, all of which can be purchased legally over the web in the US with the exception of cannabis depending on state and certain benzos (etizolams fine). Look at it like this, kratom withdrawal is like 100x more pleasant than alcohol withdrawal, for sure.

As for kratoms effects on serotonin, I have seen zero evidence that kratom works on serotonin transporters in any way and not only are there plenty of people who mix SSRI's with kratom, but I've mixed kratom with tens of drugs that would in theory be contraindicated with a serotonin reuptake inhibitor or monoamine releaser, some even with MAO inhibition (ie. MDMA, aMT, MXE, the x-APB family, and countless other psychedelics and empathogens). Also, besides anxiety and depression (which are seen in EVERY withdrawal from a mu agonist) there are no real withdrawal symptoms from kratom that suggest any serotonin activity like brain zaps and such.

If your looking to avoid dependance keep two days between doses and you should be good to go but I personally found the benefit of daily use to far outweigh the week of withdrawals, I was on kratom for over 4 years and have been clean for about 5 months or so, so daily therapeutic use can be done. Congrats on kicking alcohol btw, such a vile poison. Btw, some people really have a hard time kicking kratom so I reccomend doing alot of unbiased reading on kratom dependency before making any rash decisions, I wish you the best of luck

 

[roberr]

CaptainKratom,

Thank you for reinforcing the idea that kratom does not effect serotonin. It eases my anxiety and allows me to enjoy kratom as intended. It is also a relief to hear that withdrawals are manageable. When you got clean, did you taper off?

 

[TheLostBoys]

Kratom withdrawal can be bad, but it's not "as bad" as other opiate withdrawals for sure. Kratom in fact is used to help the withdrawal symptoms of other opiates. Kratom is not as addictive as other opiates because it has a lower affinity for the weaker opiate receptors. If you use it at that medium dose for thirty days, a slight psycological dependence (not physical dependence) might develop, i.e. - the pleasure of the drug is nice to think about and you want to redose just because you remember how it feels.

Let me tell you something about the "legality" of substances though. While drugs may be legal, that does NOT make them "bad". The media demonizes the use of drugs and ONLY shows the negative aspects of the effects of drugs. Drugs themselves are harmless, but people abusing the drugs is what causes the harm. Any form of abuse causes harm, eating too much, exercising too much, smoking too much, and so on. That being said, people are brought up their entire lives brainwashed to "the governments will". If the government says its bad, you shouldn't do it. But let's forget about all the bad things the government has done. The government is not perfect and they are certainly no role models to set examples for society. You think all those corrupt politicians don't do drugs with all that money and power?? Are you kidding? They make drugs illegal, because it generates money. They can take more money from taxpayers and turn it into funding for the DEA to seize dealer profit money and drugs and weapons.

Alcohol is the buzz the government and the big companies WANT you to have. Why? Because it kills people off. Because they make money from it. Because other substances (that are much safer) would EASILY defeat alcohol in sales and destroy those big companies and lobbyist investors. Same goes for nicotine. What a horrible....horrible...drug of choice humanity has chosen....fucking ALCOHOL ... seriously? As a human race...THAT is the common drug of choice that was made legal? Alcohol causes violence in so many homes, resulting in domestic abuse. It ruins lives, it destroys families, it literally kills people, and it is easily available at the corner store. Any given person can literally walk into a store, purchase enough alcohol, drink it, and be dead from alcohol poisoning within ONE HOUR. And they stick cute labels on it too. "Captain Morgan"? "Crown Royal"? "Blue Moon" ? What the fuck? Then they have the commericials, making it look "cool to drink", and they have movies with people abusing alcohol to combat depression (like Robert Downey Jr. in Charlie Bartlett) , or to show off "how funny someone can act and the things they do while drunk" (The Hangover). They want to keep the morons simple and happy with the average ole' "six pack o beer" and "a pack a smokes" every friday "after a hard days work". You really want to live your life that way? You really want to live "in the matrix"? All things aside, I know that the abuse of alcohol is what harms people, but if the media keeps on pushing the idea of drinking to people like they do, of course it's going to get abused.

Go do some real research, in fact this site is one of the best places to find out the truth. Just because a doctor doesn't write you a prescription for something doesn't mean he is right. Sure he went to med school, but he is also a human, and humans have opinions and every human is different. I have had several doctors prescribe me very VERY dangerous medication combinations telling me "I would be fine" even after I questioned the combination, only for me to wind up in the hospital days later due to their poor judgement. Only YOU know what's best for you. Doctors can help, but when it comes down to it, you are the only one who lives inside your head. Not the doctor, not your mom or dad, YOU. Rise above it. Take charge of your life. I know that you have probably heard or read at some point in your life advice like this from someone like me and probably igonored it, but there are many of us who are starting to "realize the truth"

My observations described above, all happened within the first 15 minutes i started rolling for my first time. It made THAT huge of an impact on the way I think. It removed and lifed some huge walls for me, yet doctors want to keep people hooked on anti-depressants for the rest of their lives. Sorry, but I refuse. Just my two cents

See things for the way the are, rather than the way they seem.

Very well written......you're 100% right that the only reason drugs are illegal is because its a money making scam from top to bottom, jails, police, judges, politicians, lawyers & plenty of agencies.......my goodness, if drugs become legal, lots of people will be out of a job.

 

[sghouston5]

Very well written......you're 100% right that the only reason drugs are illegal is because its a money making scam from top to bottom, jails, police, judges, politicians, lawyers & plenty of agencies.......my goodness, if drugs become legal, lots of people will be out of a job.

So happy someone agress and also sees that we live in a very....very corrupt world with such a skewed and raped vision of what our "morals" are supposed to be.

It's so bad to "litter", yet the companies who put up anti-littering ads on billboards are littering the earth with their billboards.

It's so bad to "smoke" , yet some of the big people in anti-smoking campaigns are these huge fat asses who probably order the number two, extra large twice daily because hey...at least it's not fucking giving them lung cancer right?

It's bad to "do drugs", when pharmaceutical companies prescribe anti-depressants that can permanetly fuck up the way your serotonin system works long term causing you to LITERALLY depend on them, but nah...it was okay because a human being who attended medical school and obtained a doctorate (even though he or she MAY have made D's or C's through college mind you).

It's bad to consume foods with "gluten" all the sudden. Its like WHERE THE FUCK DO THEY COME UP WITH THESE FUCKING RULES??!?!? Do you think cavemen gave a flying fuck if their food had gluten in it???

Do you even think morphine was regulated in the 19th century? Hell no. You used to could just hop on that horse and ride on down to the local "tonic shop" and get you a vial of morphine for a nickel. SHUCKS AND YEEHAW! Why...all the sudden...in this century...are drugs regulated and controlled?....For WHAT REASON? People STILL get addicted even when prescribed them. Remember reading about witch hunts in history class? People MURDERED....mind you MURDERED innocent women because most of the "townsfolk" were convinced that someone with sickness was possessed by a demon or was a witch. They JUSTIFIED THE MURDER of hundereds of women back then because they were convinced that it was "okay to do so". Don't even get me started on the whole Nazi story either. People are brainless sheep man.

You get the picture man. It's all hypocritical. Protecting your children by the government's definition of corrupting them with the lies of societal conformity is NOT protecting them. Protecting your children is telling them the truth man. The television sets have brainwashed you, the churches have brainwashed you (no one cares about God anymore, its all about the social "norm" and going out to eat after church on sunday, the justification of spending money on food to gratify your family after the "good feeling" of doing a "good thing" spending your hard earned money giving "donations" to a church in which most of it's pastors drive a mother fucking mercedes. NEVER FAILS MAN IT NEVER FAILS.)

Just think about the things you do in life. Second guess them man. You get in a car each day (a machine forcibly made a necessity by mankind), you drive on these concrete roads (which is so horrible to do to a beautiful and perfect planet that we have), we pollute the air and fill it with disgusting smog and the smell of fast food, we see all these metal and brick buildings all around us with these plastic signs of shitty "artistic" advertisements, then we finally get to work, wearing our BULLSHIT corporate slacks, belt, ties, button down shirts and come into an office where everyone is fake as shit with their plastic pretend "professional" face on, the aroma of coffee is overpowering, most people take their 9 AM morning shits in the bathroom, then you do this mundane "corporate work" for someone else's cause just so the CEO can become....even richer, while you barely make ends meet. Not to mention repeating the whole process just to make it home to a "house" where you have to pay for WATER AND ELECTRICITY, both of which are natural phenomena. You turn on your tv "for entertainment" then watch these moronic sitcoms that 'pretend' they understand in the infallible irony of workplace situations, mortality of life, or any idea what it's really like to live in this rat race (or enslaved in the matrix as I call it)) and your mind gets absorbed as you watch the images on the screen. Your experiences and memories in your brain tell you that those situational jokes are supposed to be "funny" so you laugh and you get a "kick" out of the show and it's the topic of the day the next day with your "cubicle buddies". Oh but wait! You are "FREE" on the weekend right? YAY! A whole two days off every weekend to "reward" you for a hard days work. The average person lives about 27,000 days. The average person also works about 14,000 of those days. That's half your life you spend working. Literally. Oh yeah...you forgot about time to sleep didn't ya? Remember to subtract that. Oh boy... Not a very long time huh ?

Make of that what you will, I am just stating obvious facts. I point things out how they are. I am not some "blind opinionated hippy tree hugging philosophical weirdo" that society wants you to think I am. You want to keep buying your little "baggies" of beef jerky from the corner store, containing God knows how many pieces of processed animals in that little vacuum sealed bag, all sold for 3.99, meanwhile you enjoy the "seasoned and dried pleasure of putting another dead animals carcass into your body" just because that little "Jack Link's" baggy had all the right advertising on it.

USE YOUR BRAINS PEOPLE LOL. You are capable of realizing SO MUCH MORE than you realize. If you try hard enough, some of it will all just click. Not everyone will agree with me and they don't need to. Ignorance is bliss for sure. Honestly sometimes I wish I could be blindly led around like a sheep. But man....sometimes I wouldn't give up the truth for anything. It's not a conspiracy, there is no illuminati etc. People are just corrupt. That's the end of it man.