is there any way i would feel kratom if im taking subutex everyday, some people are telling me kratom is not an opiate and some people are saying it is, im confused, and i also read that you can take tramadol on top of subutex also, is that true?
kratom and buprenorphine
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rachamim
Bluelighter
It is not an opiate/opioid but it DOES have SOME partial crossover on ONE relevant receptor. Most , meaning those who gain effect from Kratom because most do not, compare it to T3 (Tylenol #3).
There is no reason why you would not feel Kratom when on Bupe except that it is not really discernible psychoactively for experienced opiate/opioid users.
As for Tramdol with Bupe, if taking Bupe per se and not the compounded version with the antagonist, as in Sub, you will be fine. Both focus on the same receptor so that you would get added analgesia,etc. If your goal is psychoactive in nature (trying to get high), again, Bupe is a substance that is effective only for some people. If you have gained effect from Tramadol before, you should also feel the combination.
If youy mean Sub, well that will be a problem. Ahhh, and you DID say Sub. Well, you have info on both scenarios. Good luck.
There is no reason why you would not feel Kratom when on Bupe except that it is not really discernible psychoactively for experienced opiate/opioid users.
As for Tramdol with Bupe, if taking Bupe per se and not the compounded version with the antagonist, as in Sub, you will be fine. Both focus on the same receptor so that you would get added analgesia,etc. If your goal is psychoactive in nature (trying to get high), again, Bupe is a substance that is effective only for some people. If you have gained effect from Tramadol before, you should also feel the combination.
If youy mean Sub, well that will be a problem. Ahhh, and you DID say Sub. Well, you have info on both scenarios. Good luck.
Kratom isn't technically an opiate because it is not a daughter of opium, like heroin, oxy, hydro, morphine, codeine, etc.
Kratom is the only known naturally occurring opioid. Kratom works on opioid receptors. Although I have no first hand experience, I have read that kratom sort of "competes," if you will, for the mu opioid receptor. So it will compete with any other opioid/opiate to agonize the mu receptor. Basically, if you take more kratom than buprenorphine(in terms of receptor agonization), you will feel the kratom. Vice versa, if you take more buprenorphine than kratom, you will feel the bup. No synergistic action at all. One will always be going to waste.
Your question was, "will you feel kratom?" Yes, you will feel it if you take alot, but if you end up feeling the kratom, you wont feel the sub.
So, in conclusion, if you want to feel the kratom, don't take sub.
Kratom is the only known naturally occurring opioid. Kratom works on opioid receptors. Although I have no first hand experience, I have read that kratom sort of "competes," if you will, for the mu opioid receptor. So it will compete with any other opioid/opiate to agonize the mu receptor. Basically, if you take more kratom than buprenorphine(in terms of receptor agonization), you will feel the kratom. Vice versa, if you take more buprenorphine than kratom, you will feel the bup. No synergistic action at all. One will always be going to waste.
Your question was, "will you feel kratom?" Yes, you will feel it if you take alot, but if you end up feeling the kratom, you wont feel the sub.
So, in conclusion, if you want to feel the kratom, don't take sub.
GenericMind
Bluelighter
Kratom may not be an Opiate, but it is a mu-opiate receptor agonist. buprenorphine binds itself more strongly in the brain than other substances, meaning it'll be harder for other substances to bind to mu-opiate receptors when buprenorphine is in your system. The long and short: It may damper the effects of Kratom.
rachamim
Bluelighter
No, it is neither an opioid nor is it the only natural occurring opioid even if it were one. An opioid is simply a substance that mimics the pharmokineticks of an opiate. Substances are not classed according to their structure nor their similar pharmokinticks, or lack there of.
It has PARTIAL crossover on ONE receptor. Structurally it is closest to psilocybe (meaning Kratom's predominant alakloid Mitragynine IS) and then to Yohimbe. Still, it is not a psyhadelic. It exhbits both stimulant and depressant qualities that are dependant on specific dosages.
Well, one will not really be going to waste because any substance that shres basic pharmokinetick qualities will poteniate other such substances. The problem with concurrent dosing would only be if the subject takes an antagonist with it, such as Sub.
It has PARTIAL crossover on ONE receptor. Structurally it is closest to psilocybe (meaning Kratom's predominant alakloid Mitragynine IS) and then to Yohimbe. Still, it is not a psyhadelic. It exhbits both stimulant and depressant qualities that are dependant on specific dosages.
Well, one will not really be going to waste because any substance that shres basic pharmokinetick qualities will poteniate other such substances. The problem with concurrent dosing would only be if the subject takes an antagonist with it, such as Sub.
GenericMind
Bluelighter
I thought the general consensus now was that 7-hydroxymitragynine is the predominant active alkaloid in Kratum.
rachamim said:
?
An opioid is any agent that binds to opioid receptors...or anything that has a morphine-like effect.
Mitragynine is by no means the only active alkaloid in kratom.
7-hydroxymitragynine and morphine both work on the mu receptor(which was named after morphine). Mitragynine happens to work on the delta opioid receptor.
So now, considering that kratom acts strongly on the mu and delta* receptors, I would say its pretty easy to call kratom an opioid.
If the general consensus is that it is not an opioid, I don't understand why.
edit: typo
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rachamim
Bluelighter
Stuck: there is alist of criteria used to classify alkaloids. One of the major sticking points is the function of full on antagonists. While it is indeed possible to overdose on Mitragynine, it is impossible to reverse it via an antagonist. I am aware of the Chiba paper claiming Naaloxone can reverse 7-hydroxy but that is only one of the very minor alkaloids present in the leaf.
Another sticking point is the cross tolerance of true opiates/opioids and Mitragynine (and Kratom by association) fails there as well.
As for 7-hydroxy having been found to be the predominat alkaloid. not even close. The ature leaf, both veined, has an average (although it is highly variable so the average is rough) .02% alkaloidal content over all. Of the alakloids, Mitragynine is between 40 and 60% of the total make up!
Generic, the only one pointing to 7-hydroxy are a couple of mistaken posters on psycoactive botanical sites.
Stuck: No, Mitrgynine is not the only alakloid in the leaf but it is by far the predominant one.
Mu was not named after morphine, although it would have perhaps been a common sensical approach being that Mu2 is the key to "euphoria." Yes, 7-hydroxy DOES have a modicum of Mu but the alkaloid itself is minimal in percentages, and the overall indole charcteristics override any complimenting chacteristics.
Again, receptor affinity has nothing to do with classification. In the end though it is only an academic argument sincve what really matter is the subjective psychoactive expereince and for some it good enough. I still agree with Serat in that is reminds me of an overhyped SSRI.
Another sticking point is the cross tolerance of true opiates/opioids and Mitragynine (and Kratom by association) fails there as well.
As for 7-hydroxy having been found to be the predominat alkaloid. not even close. The ature leaf, both veined, has an average (although it is highly variable so the average is rough) .02% alkaloidal content over all. Of the alakloids, Mitragynine is between 40 and 60% of the total make up!
Generic, the only one pointing to 7-hydroxy are a couple of mistaken posters on psycoactive botanical sites.
Stuck: No, Mitrgynine is not the only alakloid in the leaf but it is by far the predominant one.
Mu was not named after morphine, although it would have perhaps been a common sensical approach being that Mu2 is the key to "euphoria." Yes, 7-hydroxy DOES have a modicum of Mu but the alkaloid itself is minimal in percentages, and the overall indole charcteristics override any complimenting chacteristics.
Again, receptor affinity has nothing to do with classification. In the end though it is only an academic argument sincve what really matter is the subjective psychoactive expereince and for some it good enough. I still agree with Serat in that is reminds me of an overhyped SSRI.
GenericMind
Bluelighter
I understand that the presence of Mitagynine is much higher than 7-hydroxymitragynine, but it's recently been shown that 7-hydroxymitragynine is 30-fold more potent than Mitagynine in it's Opioid receptor agonism. The last I heard it was considered the new predominant active alkaloid in Mitragyna speciosa.
rachamim
Bluelighter
You are correct about it being 30 times as potent in comparison to morphine but it is a misleading phrase that has been misunderstood and spread. It is 30 times, true, but in terms of analgesia, not "euphoria." When comparing against morphine they calculate according to per capita weight for desired effect so that it is 30 times less in cilincal dosages while achieving the desired effect of 30 times its weight in morphine.
Indoles have a whole different methodolgy and this too is yet another reason why it cannot be termed an opiate/opioid. As I always mention, the Morphine Rule is the standard of excellence to which all other possible opiates and opioids are compred against. Structurally, none of the alkaloids have the right structure. This would not neccessarily negate its potential classification. However, when taken in conjunction with all the other evidence it is overwhelingly clear.
Hey, for what it is worth, I wish that it were the opposite as the place where I am living is only 1 of 3 nations on Earth where Kratom is naturally occurring. I could literally have it everyday for life. Too bad it is pretty worthless for me.
On semantics... I will be the first to admit that my English leaves much to be desired BUT, PREDOMINANT means overwhelming percentage there of, etc. On the other hand, DOMINANT means that it is the most influential which IS what I do believe you are trying to get across. If so, yeah, it could be considered the most dominant if not for the other criteria mentioned.
Indoles have a whole different methodolgy and this too is yet another reason why it cannot be termed an opiate/opioid. As I always mention, the Morphine Rule is the standard of excellence to which all other possible opiates and opioids are compred against. Structurally, none of the alkaloids have the right structure. This would not neccessarily negate its potential classification. However, when taken in conjunction with all the other evidence it is overwhelingly clear.
Hey, for what it is worth, I wish that it were the opposite as the place where I am living is only 1 of 3 nations on Earth where Kratom is naturally occurring. I could literally have it everyday for life. Too bad it is pretty worthless for me.
On semantics... I will be the first to admit that my English leaves much to be desired BUT, PREDOMINANT means overwhelming percentage there of, etc. On the other hand, DOMINANT means that it is the most influential which IS what I do believe you are trying to get across. If so, yeah, it could be considered the most dominant if not for the other criteria mentioned.
GenericMind
Bluelighter
Interesting. You learn something new every day.
rachamim said:
Hmmm. Well, I read different, so I assumed it was an opioid. I was going off of that definition i stated earlier, "anything that acts on opioid receptors." I guess thats not the case. In my mind it will always be my sweet sweet opioid goodness. ;p
rachamim
Bluelighter
Well, in the end the expereince is what really counts, yes? The real point think is that it only has SOME affinity at SOME dosage levels. Alot of people in Malaysia and Thailand are physically addicted to it, and both those nations make possesion of it a death penalty offence (n certain amounts) so that it does have some psychoactive value for sure , sadly though, never for me.
mikemikemike
Bluelighter
GenericMind said:
Wow, just noticed ur a Mod, congrats, did I miss the ceremony, was it in Vegas this year?
GenericMind
Bluelighter
You didn't miss much. It was your typical shotgun wedding.
re
yeah i did say sub, but i meant subutex, which is only buprenorphine, no nalaxone, so the tram wouldnt be a problem im assuming, , still a little confused on the kratom thing with all the different answers, i guess i will re read this thread
thanks for all the replies and help
yeah i did say sub, but i meant subutex, which is only buprenorphine, no nalaxone, so the tram wouldnt be a problem im assuming, , still a little confused on the kratom thing with all the different answers, i guess i will re read this thread
thanks for all the replies and help
rachamim said:
RE: Tramadol with Bupe
It doesn't matter if the bupe is compounded with Naloxone or not. Tramadol and M1 both have much lower affinity for the mu-receptor. If they are bound to it and then you take bupe, bupe will kick it off the receptor, which means acute w/d.
If the sub is taken before the tram however, the tram wouldn't do much since it can't displace buprenorphine.
AlphaOdure
Bluelighter
I wanted to bump this thread up as i have interest in this combination (i plan on trying it soon). So any updates on the OP's experimentation or added information is welcome!
Oh yea and in regards to this statement...
I'm guessing you're referring to suboxone, the naloxone + buprenorphine formulation. Well, i need to point out that you're wrong there. Naloxone plays absolutely no role in the pharmacological action of suboxone unless IV'd (even then, it does little to over-ride buprenorphine <6 mg).
Naloxone has very low bioavailability ( <5% ) via the sublingual or even insufflated ROA. In clinical research.. patients who were on suboxone doses as high as 24 mg/daily where shown to have less than trace amounts of naloxone present in their system.
Therefore, any sort of antagonizing effect suboxone may have on tramadol or kratom is purely a result of buprenorphine's unique pharmacology. And just for the record- i've taken tramadol w/ my daily suboxone dose and feel just as much analgesia as if i were to take the tram by itself. Anecdotely speaking, i think its generally accepted that when two different partial agonists (in this case, bupe and tramadol) are taken together, they don't antagonize each other's effects; even if one of the substances has extremely high affinity for mu-opioid receptors (like bupe).
Oh yea and in regards to this statement...
rachamim said:
I'm guessing you're referring to suboxone, the naloxone + buprenorphine formulation. Well, i need to point out that you're wrong there. Naloxone plays absolutely no role in the pharmacological action of suboxone unless IV'd (even then, it does little to over-ride buprenorphine <6 mg).
Naloxone has very low bioavailability ( <5% ) via the sublingual or even insufflated ROA. In clinical research.. patients who were on suboxone doses as high as 24 mg/daily where shown to have less than trace amounts of naloxone present in their system.
Therefore, any sort of antagonizing effect suboxone may have on tramadol or kratom is purely a result of buprenorphine's unique pharmacology. And just for the record- i've taken tramadol w/ my daily suboxone dose and feel just as much analgesia as if i were to take the tram by itself. Anecdotely speaking, i think its generally accepted that when two different partial agonists (in this case, bupe and tramadol) are taken together, they don't antagonize each other's effects; even if one of the substances has extremely high affinity for mu-opioid receptors (like bupe).
melange
Bluelighter
how easy is it to overdose on kratom?
I imagine taking a lot would be enjoyable
I imagine taking a lot would be enjoyable