Just switched from Dexamp to Methamp (ADHD) potency Q

[Ph0r.W3-R-m4ny]

Hey guys, I just was switched from 5mg of dexamp twice a day to 5mg of methamp twice a day..

I'm scouring the web now looking for definitive answers, but figured I'd open a thread and see if anyone knew off the top of their heads how the two compare. My pharmacist said the meth is actually less potent than the d-amp, but wiki says otherwise. (And the pharmacist admitted it was the first time she ever distributed this particular pill so totally possible she was wrong).

Anyone know? Has anyone made this switch for ADHD before and what did you think about it? I also take kpins for anxiety and I'm hoping somehow that the meth is less anxiety provoking than the d-amp, but.. well, I dunno, I've seen meth once ever and it came in a bag not a labeled bottle, n I never did any of what was in the bag, this is totally new territory for me.

I read dexamp isn't neurotoxic but meth is, sooo it is gonna have to be a lot more effective than the dex if I'm gonna stay on it for that reason alone. (And it costs a hell of a lot more).

Anyway, hit me with whatever info you think would be helpful please =)

As always, much appreciated, thanks guys

 

[sekio]

I think methamphetamine is more potent, milligram for milligram. It's definitely longer-lasting and more fat soluble.
Here's an equivalency chart I found. YMMV.

D-methamphetamine (Desoxyn, most "street meth") 2.5 mg
D-amphetamine 5 mg
DL-metamphetamine ("P2P meth") 5mg
Adderall (75% d-amph and 25% l-amph) 7.5 mg
D-methylphenidate (Focalin) 7.5 mg
DL-amphetamine 10mg
DL-methylphenidate (Ritalin) 15 mg
propylhexedrine 30 mg

 

[woamotive]

...But methamphetamine is not on there (^'there, meaning the chart posted above)?!- OP: you are not talking about Ritalin/Methylphenidate, correct? Also, not d-methamphetmine(?)


*You are referring to (generic) methamphetamine or what is in brand name form: desoxyn. (search desoxyn within bluelight - great stuff!)

Search engine DOES yield answer/s to this.

 

[Ph0r.W3-R-m4ny]

^I'm reading up on an ADD message board at the moment, lots of experienced patients there. The desoxyn actually sounds like it will work better with my anxiety =) People are saying it is the smoothest of all the meds, and these guys seem like they've been on everything under the sun.

http://www.addforums.com

^link to the board if anyone is interested, just found it, looks like a great resource for adhd

But I'm talking about Desoxyn, the bottle just says 'methamphetamine', I'm not sure what isomer they use yet, I've never researched this stuff at all, still learning. But to clarify, before I was on dextroamphetamine, now methamphetamine.


Thanks seiko- assuming desoxyn is D-meth that's pretty cool.

I'm gonna keep readin, thanks much =)

 

[negrogesic]

I was prescribed desoxyn a few years back in lieu of d-AMP, but at a dose of 5mg qid (20mg/day). At single doses of 5mg-15mg, I found it somewhat sedating, as its potent serotonergic properties overshadow any DA/NE mediated CNS-stim. Doses over 20mg begin to exhibit more stimulating and mood-altering properties (subjectively). As an ADHD med, it is effective, but for someone like me (I am predominantly hyperkinetic/impulsive/prone to risk taking; my ability to concentrate is actually quite good), the methamphetamine at low doses effectively slowed me down, but made me feel rather "dumb". Nonetheless, methamphetamine at even low doses, presents a neurotoxicity issue that could be clinically significant over time. It should likely be reserved to patients who legitimately fail to function well on d-AMP. It is generally one of the last lines of treatment. Plus, that shit, even with good insurance will run at least a few hundred dollars for a 100 count bottle.

I have abused high dose crystal d-meth, but found the high was not worth the comedown.

 

[Ph0r.W3-R-m4ny]

This is looking promising. Concentration and focus are my issues, and avoiding anxiety is huge. The extra serotonin can't hurt, and it sounds like the meth is less physically stimulating, which is where I feel my anxiety comes from..

Sekio- are you saying 5mg of either pill would be equivalent?

 

[Ph0r.W3-R-m4ny]

over and over again I keep reading that meth has the most mental effects with the least peripheral disturbances. =) I think I struck gold

 

[Jager336]

I haven't tried dextroamphetamine but was on Desoxyn for about a year, six 5mg tabs per day, two at a time three times daily. Desoxyn is mg/mg more efficacious than dextroamphetamine, but keep in mind that drugs such as dextro/amphetamine and dex/methylphenidate are different than dl/methamphetamine (mainly the latter being different, though I know that's not what you're asking), so your body will react differently in terms of therapeutic and recreational doses. It is much smoother than street methamphetamine and is really not prone to causing side-effects in anything but very high doses, and in this case I'm referring to side-effects as stimulation, anxiety-inducing, etc. collectively.

For an ADHD medication for somebody who reacts better to amphetamines vs. other stimulants/non-stimulants (which is not me) it is probably one of the best treatments available. For any recreational purposes remember that while you most certainly would not have to take an equivilant amount of Desoxyn to crystal for good stimulant effects, you will certainly have to take more 5mg Desoxyn tablets than you would 5mg dextroamphetamine tablets.

I hope this is of some help, while I again have not tried dextroamphetamine I understand it is hard to get a first-hand experience with Desoxyn from somebody.

Edit: with regard to cost, though I did not take the generic version of Desoxyn (I was not aware there was one?) the Desoxyn brand, at 180 x 5mg tabs (the only strength available since pharmaceutical manufacturers switched), it was slightly over $800. If I didn't have insurance there was no way in hell I could have afforded it. I'm guessing this is an attempt to discourage widespread use.

 

[Ph0r.W3-R-m4ny]

^thanks a ton for the first hand experience Jager. There IS generic desoxyn now, Mylan puts it out. 60 5mg pills before insurance was over 160 bux, cost me 30 when my dexamp was under $10.

(That would be $480 bux for your script of 180 pills to save the math time haha so like almost 50% off with the generic)

 

[Jager336]

Wow. Had that been out when I was on it I might have been able to stay on it.

Here I thought it was just that no manufacturer dared put "methamphetamine" on the bottle. lol

 

[Ph0r.W3-R-m4ny]

Wow. Had that been out when I was on it I might have been able to stay on it.

Here I thought it was just that no manufacturer dared put "methamphetamine" on the bottle. lol

ROFL dude if we had a gallery still I would post the picture I took of the bottle right after I got it for that exact reason LOL I could nooot believe it just plain says "METHAMPHETAMINE 5MG TABLET"

It's all stupid stigma though, honestly, the more I read, the more it pisses me off, this seems like it should be the FIRST choice for patients comorbid with anxiety and adhd

 

[Jager336]

It's all stupid stigma though, honestly, the more I read, the more it pisses me off, this seems like it should be the FIRST choice for patients comorbid with anxiety and adhd

I agree that it should not be avoided as a treatment for somebody that is requiring smooth and relatively non-invasive AD/H/D treatment, but remember that if it were used more readily, it would also be misused more readily, so the physicians are really being forced to walk that line, and I think they would have to forfeit practice due to the lack of patients they would see as soon as word got out that they were handing out meth. The stigma/semi-truths surrounding Desoxyn (crystal meth entirely aside here) would soon surround the physicians prescribing it readily.

Let us know how it is working for you. I'm curious to do a trial of dextroamphetamine and being somebody who's taken Desoxyn a relative comparison of effects between the two would be helpful.

 

[negrogesic]

Desoxyn is DL-methamphetamine and should be approx. 2x D-methamp. I.e. an equivalent dose of 5mg.

I admit the bottle itself is unclear, but the desoxyn is the d enantiomer.

To put it even more clearly, the compound is: (2S)-N-methyl-1-phenylpropan-2-amine

For those who don't understand the S-stereoisomer means [+]- (aka dextro in this case). Desoxyn is essentially enantiomerically pure dextro-methamphetamine.

There is no basis for multiple its dose as mentioned, as it is NOT racemate......that is very clear........

 

[sekio]

I edited my post with the dose chart (again). Sorry negrogesic, I was unaware that the INN 'methamphetamine' actually refers to the D-enantiomer, unlike 'amphetamine'...

Methamphetamine is a very broad-spectrum releaser and so definitely will produce more "smoothness" but at the cost of reduced appetite (5-HT2C) and possible neurotoxicity etc. In addition it acts as a prodrug for amphetamine.

I support some doctors methodology of ADHD treatment to be NRI -> NDRI -> NDRA (i.e. Strattera -> Ritalin -> Adderall) with a broad spectrum agent like methamphetamine as a possible last resort. It makes no sense using powerful drugs that people are obviously going to abuse (don't tell me college kids only use adderall legitamately) when a more selective and potentially less toxic agent will work. Strattera may be garbage for 99%, but for the 1% it works for, great.

 

[Jager336]

Strattera may be garbage for 99%, but for the 1% it works for, great.

This is very true. I did give it a try and know that there are people (my love included) that Strattera is great for. I agree wholeheartedly that some medications should be used with added caution. To be honest it seems to me that if Desoxyn works well then another less toxic amphetamine-class stimulant will also do the trick, and the physical problems often presented with the more potent/toxic drugs like Desoxyn should not be taken lightly.

PS: thank ^ both for the clarification on dosing and chemical makeup. Learn many new things every time I visit the site.

 

[negrogesic]

From my experience, strattera is garbage. Some psychiatrists buy the bullshit drug-reps bullshit. Others use it as 'fuck-off' drug (aka drug-seeking patients). But again, I am not a psychiatrist, so I only rarely write for psychostimulants. I have in the past written provigil during my residence for obvious drug-seeking psych patients, and I have never written a script for adderal, concerta, lis-dex or desoxyn. Only psychostims I will write (and again, its rare) are d-amp (mainly IR, but spansules are useful), focalin IR (only written one script for spansules) and maybe one ritalin script (basically I just Rx'd an inpatients previous med).

On a side note, its hilarious how freely class II stimulants can be written without fear, while I am personally extremely reluctant to write out a script for OC-80s. Its funny, because when I was the drug abuser, I despised op-phob physicians, when now, I am technically one "them". I do however write scripts for methadone for true chronic pain and for hospice, which typically pharmacies will almost always call me directly to validate (some refuse to fill). I do not have the license to write methadone for addiction, but any moron can write endless bupe scripts by going through a 8-hour tutorial/test.

 

[woamotive]

I was prescribed generic desoxyn (methamphetamine) and took it for a few months. I definitely preferred adderall (and even ritalin) as methamphetamine gave me some insane crashes as well as a killer (thankfully, not literally) depression during and post doses/dosing.

My pharmacist (and all that I called) was also very unfamiliar in prescribing this particular med, and many wouldn't call and order it. It is CERTAINLY an expensive medication to pay out of pocket (and most insurances, at least in my experience) do not cover it (brand or generic). I find it NOT more potent in a 'powerful' 'great effect/s' sort of way, but in the way that I could tell it was really putting my body through hell.

If you have a choice, and after taking it for a bit, do not like the way it makes you feel - honestly, I'd 'not' choose it as a prescription for ADHD. Lots of people say it's the holy grail of ADD/ADHD meds (esp since it's rarely prescribed), but I really don't feel it's something I'd EVER want to take on a daily basis - or long term. I'd switch to something else (POST testing it out for yourself, of course).

 

[Ph0r.W3-R-m4ny]

I know it's too soon to say, but so far... I'm home baby! The mental clarity kicks in at low doses way before the negative side effects take hold making a therapeutic range way more useful than what I experience with dex-amp where I HAVE to suffer side effects to get the amount of mental benefits needed... certainly seems much cleaner. Like with meth, mental enhancement seems like the first priority, and peripheral stimulation second. With the dexamp my body (heart) is telling me the whole time I'm on it, and have to deal with that do get the mental benefits. The meth is just clear sailing (as long as the dose is low). I'm almost positive now that this peripheral stimulation (which gives me anxiety) is caused by too much norepinepherin. Welbutrin gave me killer chest pains and over stimulation, and that one increases nor-ep. (though it did seem to help to a degree with my adhd-something in there was doing something right) From what I read, dexamp is 2x more active on nor-ep than meth is, and pretty much equal in dopamine activity, so I'm thinkin that must be why it's smoother for me. The addition of the serotonin that comes with the meth that doesn't come with the dexamp I think makes the quality of the effects much better as well. Like I could DO work on the dexamp, (which frankly I can't really unmedicated..), but I wasn't motivated to get up and do it. With the meth I am happy to move from task to task, I don't feel like each thing I have to do is a burden.. I'm guessing that's gotta be the serotonin...

The way I feel right now about this situation is the same way I felt when I finally got a hold of good high purity heroin- Heroin was SO much cleaner feeling than OC, it pissed me off we don't have it available in the medical system here. Meth is like super clean feeling while dexamp and adderall are dirty like OC (in their own different ways).

I dunno, so far so good. Thanks everyone for your comments. I'll update later as things move along.

=\ this makes me wonder though, if I had been given proper meds in, oh, fuckin elementary school when I showed text book adhd symptoms and was always getting in trouble and screwing up in class... where could I be now? I feel like I can do normal people things, actually work up to my full potential. I know I'm smart as fuck and have tons of potential, but I've been struggling for years..... blah, anyway, 'today is the first day of the rest of your life'. I'm gonna work on my college transfer application so I can get out of my current super huge shitty school and move out to the mountains with my sexy girly friend and attend her private school. I've been putting off writing this statement of purpose afraid I won't get in, but I'm gonna make it happen. Everything is finally coming together

 

[Vaya]

I was prescribed desoxyn a few years back in lieu of d-AMP, but at a dose of 5mg qid (20mg/day). At single doses of 5mg-15mg, I found it somewhat sedating, as its potent serotonergic properties overshadow any DA/NE mediated CNS-stim.

I cannot at all relate to your strange reaction to the dexmethamp, negrogesic. Which is why I was happy you supplemented it with a closer inspection of your ADD profile. Over fifteen years I've made movement from (worst- to best-tolerated) Straterra, Caffeine, Methylphenidate/LA, Concerta, Adrafinil, Provigil, Racemic Amphetamine Salts/XR, DexMethylphenidate/XR, Lisdexamfetamine, Dextroamphetamine/XR, and just recently got myself 4x 5mg DextroMethamphetamine HCl tablets.

The Desoxyn outshines the efficacy of *any* of those other pharmaceutical models of AD(H)D treatment, along with being a keenly effective antidepressant and has the promising side effect of markedly reducing my irritability. I've become Vaya 2.0 but without seeming jacked-up or "high" whatsoever; it's simply the "me" that was trapped inside of my psychiatrically-ridden self has been able to break through and I feel as though I have always fantasized others - the "normies" - must feel in their day-to-day lives.

It's serotonergic properties doubtfully surpass its efficacy wherein we consider DA/NE release, but activity at the 5HT receptors explains the medication's prolific antidepressant effects.

Strangely, I feel that this medication leaves me feeling like it's alright, even desirable(!) to eat food and get proper sleep at night. The IR halflife is nearly twice as long as that of any other amphetamine prescription drug, and nearly half the dose (by comparison with Dextroamphetamine, for which I have a profound affection) is only required to achieve more acute symptomatic relief with a broader spectrum of therapeutic benefit and next to ---z.e.r.o.--- PNS disturbance - the absolute number one issue I decided to make the leap and suggest to my doctor a move to Desoxyn.

On ADDforums.com, though, I certainly have seen people react to it the way you describe, and in that situation, many (if not all) of those posters had found their relief via dextromethylphenidate (Focalin) which, I agree, would be my third choice (after dexamp and dexmethamp), despite its racemic mixture ("Ritalin") coming in dead last when Straterra isn't counted.

Regarding the insurance issue, I have decent health insurance and a bottle of 120 5mg dextromethamphetamine tabs (Mylan Pharmaceuticals) costs just under twenty bucks. Without insurance, though, the same bottle, quantity and brand is $330 8(

I hope that by now, however, you have found what it is out there that may prove the most promising and with the best longevity for your specific ADD issues. This just happens to be mine, and I was never a crystal freak when I used to use the stuff illicitly.

~ vaya

 

[Dysphoric]

Mine actually says "Methamphetam" For whatever reason they don't put the full chemical name on there...

I find the Generic to be superior as well. I haven't taken it in about a year though. I'm probably going to start using it come this spring for school, but I'm never taking stims everyday. My limit is 2-3 times a week, usually 2.