Tapering Journey from rc opioids to heroin to oxy and now subutex - what to expect?

[DennyCrane]

Hi folks

I have been reading a lot on here about suboxone and subutex, and the various taper plans and experiences. Everyone has a different background and there's a lot of different goals so I thought I'd do my own post and write about this next step of the journey. I have some questions too.

I am looking to use subutex to taper off of opiates, it seems to be the best solution (cold turkey isn't happening through choice). I have a busy job and while I'm fully functional, hiding the addiction is exhausting and at times miserable. This is not a product I'm familiar with, apart from reading about it online.

Earlier this year I ended up dependent on super strong rc opiod pills (etonitazypine) and the withdrawals were insane. I jumped over onto heroin, which I was mortified to discover was a lot less potent than the rc pills. But, I also got to liking it too much, especially smoking it which I'm way too greedy with plus it's not exactly easy to do around anyone. It's too expensive, makes me want to avoid people and makes me dead from the waste down. Zero libido. I mean, apart from all the other negatives. It just makes me feel normal. I've developed this horrible twitch where my whole body jumps after having a smoke. I actually found the cheaper "Turkish" stuff better than the luxury "Afghan" which could be a bit speedy and jittery. Either way, beyond the first couple draws of smoke - first thing in the morning especially, it's not even nice. Why do I do this? Oh yes, the whole withdrawal thing dammit.

I managed to source some oxycodone and switched to that, and I think it took about eight days for the heroin to leave my system, it felt like the oxy was hitting some receptors but not all of them. I didn't feel too great but the oxy allowed me to function normally. The oxy is more expensive than the H so it's not a long term solution, plus it can be tricky to source at times. I've been taking 2x 80mg extended release per day, one normally and the other I'll crush up. I could get by with a lot less, but that little devil sat on my shoulder says otherwise if the product is there.

My intention is to switch onto subutex and taper that down until I'm clean. I've ordered 70 x 2mg tablets.

Going by what I've read, I should wait until I'm in full on withdrawal, 24 hours ideally before taking any subutex. I was wondering how much of a dose I should start on, guessing 1 x 2mg and see how that goes? The goal is to get myself stabilised and then start tapering gradually.

What actually happens when the subutex first kicks in... do you just start to feel "normal"? Am I likely to be reasonably functional around people, or should I take a couple of days holiday and clear the diary to veg out in the house alone during this period?

I suffer from sciatica which is how I ended up in this mess in the first place but I'd rather put up with the pain from that and go see the chiropractor than try to medicate it.

Thanks for reading, I really like reading the many posts on here and I should try to contribute more.

 

[Opana313]

I have been chasing pain pills off the street for nearly 15 years. It sucks because you are right its damn tricky..along with your finances. I'm usually kicking every weekend or sometimes throughout the work week. It's like why the fuck do I keep playing this game with myself? I guess I just don't feel normal even after acute withdrawal has passed.
So I finally tried subutex tablets or at least I believe the tabs are subutex(its not the film, actually hate the film). Anyways I have found a quarter of your 8mg tab to usually do the trick or maybe half 4mg and my oxy tolerance is usually in the 100's mg wise. I wait 24hrs then when I awake at 2 or 3am with chills beginning is when I put a quarter or half under tounge and retire back to sleep for at least an hour or 2 more..this keeps me legit all day into the next morning I repeat the process although I'm sure I could wait and stretch it out. Shit is painful this addiction..I plan on getting myself a shit ton amount of benzos, good weed/moonrocks and taper and hopefully pacify this shit long enough to edify and stomp this addiction out of my mind and body. Good luck bro.

 

[Opana313]

Kratom is always on my list as well but use it and loperamide(imodium) sparingly bc the Kratom creates it's own shit storm

 

[Opana313]

I have been flirting with a very slow sub taper but if it gives me too much extended amount of time of hell I'll probably cop some hydros and just fucking kick that. Up in the air at the moment.

 

[DennyCrane]

I have been chasing pain pills off the street for nearly 15 years. It sucks because you are right its damn tricky..along with your finances. I'm usually kicking every weekend or sometimes throughout the work week. It's like why the fuck do I keep playing this game with myself? I guess I just don't feel normal even after acute withdrawal has passed.
So I finally tried subutex tablets or at least I believe the tabs are subutex(its not the film, actually hate the film). Anyways I have found a quarter of your 8mg tab to usually do the trick or maybe half 4mg and my oxy tolerance is usually in the 100's mg wise. I wait 24hrs then when I awake at 2 or 3am with chills beginning is when Iput a quarter or half under tounge and retire back to sleep for at least an hour or 2 more..this keeps me legit all day into the next morning I repeat the process although I'm sure I could wait and stretch it out. Shit is painful this addiction..I plan on getting myself a shit ton amount of benzos, good weed/moonrocks and taper and hopefully pacify this shit long enough to edify and stomp this addiction out of my mind and body. Good luck bro.

Thanks, they're 2mg tablets. I reckon that's what'll happen I'll end up in full WD in the early hours of the morning. I ran out a while back due to the post being delayed and was in a poor state waiting for the post to arrive the following day.
I've got Kratom here, I found it does virtually nothing to offset heroin withdrawal. Also got dihydrocodeine which was always my first choice until it dried up a while back - it doesn't do anything now. I suppose it might if I took enough of it, but that's just going to be very expensive and not really get me anywhere. Is it ok to take a xanax prior to taking subutex? I'll probably need something to get me off to sleep that night with WDs kicking in. Could get stoned I guess. Any sort of altered state of consciousness will do (that's so bad, why can't I just be normal) haha.

 

[Opana313]

Well the sub will help a lot about an hour in sometimes a bit longer..they say not to combine xanax and subs but if you are just taking 1 I personally wouldn't be worried..I take both on multiple occasions but never at the exact same time, not sure if that even matters.

 

[Fungus_Am0nguz]

As Opana said you should be fine taking 1 or 2 xanax that way the anxiety you first get when you "think" you are in WD it would calm it down. Ive had precipitated wds before and they suckkkkkkk, really really bad, and its bc that first wave of anxiety hits it fools you, you know when you are wd, the worst it gets the better that subutex is going to feel, it will fix u up in no time. Make sure spread those subutex for at least a month or more so your mind and body can get a rest of the other stuff. Speaking of the other stuff, a friend a mine SWIM had some etonitazypine pills once, he was like this is the new shit designer benzo/opiate blah blah, those fuckers hit like a ton of bricks, very very potent pill, watch out with those.
Funghi

 

[THECATINTHEHAT]

Do you have a plan together for detox at the end of taper? Have you switched over yet?

70 x 2mg is extremely unlikely to be enough for a taper. If you’re taking 160mg oxy a day I imagine you will need AT LEAST 10mg a day. I could be wrong because I’ve only used oxy on occasion and never orally, but I’m fairly sure you will need that much or maybe more. That means you are going to have enough for two weeks maintenance and nothing more.

If you are planning a quick taper then sure it will be enough to do that but from my experience there’s no way in hell you will be able to work through that. Do you have any plans for time off from work to detox?

I hate to sound like a negative Nancy but I think you’re underestimating how hard this is going to be. IMO you need to be organising at least a couple of weeks off work at some point to get through a detox. Either soon in which case you can fast taper through week one and then recover through week two and you might feel ok at the end, or at some point in the future in which case you will need a lot more bupe to maintain on until you get there. You may or may not be able to work through a slow taper (like 1 or 2mg a week), but even then you will need time at the end to recuperate.

Can you try to give us a bit more info and then hopefully we can give you some more specific and more useful advice. Well done for deciding to get clean though, it won’t be nice but you can do this. Have you ever done a detox before?

 

[THECATINTHEHAT]

Just to reiterate ‘a couple of days off’ is extremely unlikely to cut it. Even if you just jumped off now you would probably need a fortnight and like I say working through a taper is, whilst not impossible, not very realistic for most people (especially towards the end and for a while afterwards).

 

[DennyCrane]

Do you have a plan together for detox at the end of taper? Have you switched over yet?

70 x 2mg is extremely unlikely to be enough for a taper. If you’re taking 160mg oxy a day I imagine you will need AT LEAST 10mg a day. I could be wrong because I’ve only used oxy on occasion and never orally, but I’m fairly sure you will need that much or maybe more. That means you are going to have enough for two weeks maintenance and nothing more.

If you are planning a quick taper then sure it will be enough to do that but from my experience there’s no way in hell you will be able to work through that. Do you have any plans for time off from work to detox?

I hate to sound like a negative Nancy but I think you’re underestimating how hard this is going to be. IMO you need to be organising at least a couple of weeks off work at some point to get through a detox. Either soon in which case you can fast taper through week one and then recover through week two and you might feel ok at the end, or at some point in the future in which case you will need a lot more bupe to maintain on until you get there. You may or may not be able to work through a slow taper (like 1 or 2mg a week), but even then you will need time at the end to recuperate.

Can you try to give us a bit more info and then hopefully we can give you some more specific and more useful advice. Well done for deciding to get clean though, it won’t be nice but you can do this. Have you ever done a detox before?

Hi there I've not switched over yet. Busy with work and still unsure/a little anxious. I factor in the 24 hour period to get into full on withdrawal and keep some time clear to see how the subs work.

Yes I've done a detox before off heroin and it was fucking awful but I did manage it. I didn't get out of bed for nearly a week. I actually got through day two and three lying in bed high on some MDMA which totally got rid of the withdrawals I had which got me over the hump but then I came down off that and it wasn't very nice on top of the ongoing opiate withdrawal - however that had then receded from its peak. I think it occupied me enough during the hardest part where I otherwise may have given in. Questionable? Yes but it worked at the time for me.

In terms of a "couple of days off" I meant it as in will that transitional period stabilise me on the subs to the point I can function again around other people, not to perform a detox or a rapid taper. Or will i potentially need more time? I'm not underestimating the task, I want to make sure I get this right.

The initial quantity I have of subutex isn't the total amount I intend to use to taper, I'll be getting more in due course - the length of this process is open ended at this point. I want/need to get on an even keel and find out what dose is needed initially and get used to that before considering dropping the amount down on a taper. I'm expecting it to take months.

At the point where I'd finally feel I could jump off altogether I'd take the week off work, clear the diary and tell everyone I have the flu.

Thanks for your input and advice

 

[THECATINTHEHAT]

Ok nice one it sounds like you’ve got this a bit more worked out than the initial post suggested. No one can be sure of course but in my experience even when I’ve struggled a bit with the switch a few days off has been enough. It seems really random to me, I’ve waited less than ten hours before and been absolutely fine and I’ve also waited 24 hours and struggled with it a lot.

The time you are imagining for the taper is something sounds manageable, just be aware that whilst people can often do the drops at the start of a taper without feeing too bad, the ones at the end can be really quite punishing even if they are correspondingly smaller. If you could rustle up a fortnight off work for the detox that would be ideal but a week might be workable. The one thing that I would say is that you really don’t want to go through the detox process and get to the end of your time off and realise you’re not ready to go back to work and have to jump back on to get through it because that is totally soul destroying. Made that mistake myself many times

You’re planning this out nicely, I would also advise thinking about the non-medicinal things. Try and get yourself in as good a shape as possible ready for the detox…eat lots beforehand so you have some fat stores to burn when you don’t want to eat and get fit if you can too. Make your detox environment as comfortable as possible beforehand. Get foods that you know you will find easy to consume when feeling ill ready in the house. All these little things will give you the best chance of success but you have time to work all that out.

 

[DennyCrane]

Ok nice one it sounds like you’ve got this a bit more worked out than the initial post suggested. No one can be sure of course but in my experience even when I’ve struggled a bit with the switch a few days off has been enough. It seems really random to me, I’ve waited less than ten hours before and been absolutely fine and I’ve also waited 24 hours and struggled with it a lot.

The time you are imagining for the taper is something sounds manageable, just be aware that whilst people can often do the drops at the start of a taper without feeing too bad, the ones at the end can be really quite punishing even if they are correspondingly smaller. If you could rustle up a fortnight off work for the detox that would be ideal but a week might be workable. The one thing that I would say is that you really don’t want to go through the detox process and get to the end of your time off and realise you’re not ready to go back to work and have to jump back on to get through it because that is totally soul destroying. Made that mistake myself many times

You’re planning this out nicely, I would also advise thinking about the non-medicinal things. Try and get yourself in as good a shape as possible ready for the detox…eat lots beforehand so you have some fat stores to burn when you don’t want to eat and get fit if you can too. Make your detox environment as comfortable as possible beforehand. Get foods that you know you will find easy to consume when feeling ill ready in the house. All these little things will give you the best chance of success but you have time to work all that out.

Thanks for the advice, I've been reading lots about subs on here and online. I will book a week off work to switch over to them just in case the transition is bumpy and then wait it out until my joints are on fire, I can't stay still and I'm getting the extreme hot and cold. I find I get an initial set of withdrawals which are fairly mild "hey maybe it won't be so bad this time" then I'll fall asleep for a few hours and bam when I wake up from that it's about all I can do to shuffle to the bathroom.

Will have to wait until next week as I'm away from home this weekend, there's always something on the go - I know what you mean about having to jump back on my job requires me to be creative and is downright impossible in withdrawal.
Tidy and clean the house, fresh bedding, fully stocked cupboards and fridge. Tell everyone I have norovirus so they won't come near me haha.

Does your libido return on subs? H and Oxy I'm simply not interested, which is one of the worst side effects.

 

[Painful One]

I just got put on sub’s. Coming from 90 mg morphine a day.
So, similar to your Oxy habit.

I have needed 8 mg every 8 hours of suboxone.
I don’t feel great, it is a rough transition but I don’t feel bad either.
I feel better in some ways.
Yes, libido is coming back, appetite is returning, Depression is better, pain level is actually better.
Some other good things that I cannot quite put my finger on yet are occurring.

Downside- I feel kinda dizzy and nauseated.
Kind of a weird, sleepy, feeling.
I have been sleeping a lot but it is broken sleep.
I am waking up a lot.
Keep having hot flashes, sweating a lot.
I have a mild headache. I did have migraine headache on day 2 , that required me to be in bed all day.
I am on day 4 now and I can be around people okay.

It is taking 24 mg a day for me to stabilize.

Oh, and I used loperamide (Imodium) between the withdrawal from morphine and the change to suboxone and had no problem.
I used high Dose loperamide for 8 days (due to running out of morphine and doctor retiring) , it kept me out of severe Morphine withdrawal. It made it do-able.
I did feel the suboxone burn the loperamide off but it was no big deal.

Good luck to you.
I send my love and my prayers.

 

[DennyCrane]

I just got put on sub’s. Coming from 90 mg morphine a day.
So, similar to your Oxy habit.

I have needed 8 mg every 8 hours of suboxone.
I don’t feel great, it is a rough transition but I don’t feel bad either.
I feel better in some ways.
Yes, libido is coming back, appetite is returning, Depression is better, pain level is actually better.
Some other good things that I cannot quite put my finger on yet are occurring.

Downside- I feel kinda dizzy and nauseated.
Kind of a weird, sleepy, feeling.
I have been sleeping a lot but it is broken sleep.
I am waking up a lot.
Keep having hot flashes, sweating a lot.
I have a mild headache. I did have migraine headache on day 2 , that required me to be in bed all day.
I am on day 4 now and I can be around people okay.

It is taking 24 mg a day for me to stabilize.

Oh, and I used loperamide (Imodium) between the withdrawal from morphine and the change to suboxone and had no problem.
I used high Dose loperamide for 8 days (due to running out of morphine and doctor retiring) , it kept me out of severe Morphine withdrawal. It made it do-able.
I did feel the suboxone burn the loperamide off but it was no big deal.

Good luck to you.
I send my love and my prayers.

I've read a lot about loperamide, or Immodium as its known here. The amount people take seems a lot.

I can get by on less oxy than I take I'm just greedy if I have it; when I start to run out of it, or H, I can use a much smaller amount than I do when I've got plenty. Did you start by taking 8 or build it up until it stabilised?

Good luck with it, should definitely improve lots more once past day four

 

[THECATINTHEHAT]

I just got put on sub’s. Coming from 90 mg morphine a day.
So, similar to your Oxy habit.

I have needed 8 mg every 8 hours of suboxone.
I don’t feel great, it is a rough transition but I don’t feel bad either.
I feel better in some ways.
Yes, libido is coming back, appetite is returning, Depression is better, pain level is actually better.
Some other good things that I cannot quite put my finger on yet are occurring.

Downside- I feel kinda dizzy and nauseated.
Kind of a weird, sleepy, feeling.
I have been sleeping a lot but it is broken sleep.
I am waking up a lot.
Keep having hot flashes, sweating a lot.
I have a mild headache. I did have migraine headache on day 2 , that required me to be in bed all day.
I am on day 4 now and I can be around people okay.

It is taking 24 mg a day for me to stabilize.

Oh, and I used loperamide (Imodium) between the withdrawal from morphine and the change to suboxone and had no problem.
I used high Dose loperamide for 8 days (due to running out of morphine and doctor retiring) , it kept me out of severe Morphine withdrawal. It made it do-able.
I did feel the suboxone burn the loperamide off but it was no big deal.

Good luck to you.
I send my love and my prayers.

That seems like a lot of bupe for that amount of morphine, but just goes to show that everyone is very different. 24mg held me from a gram a day IV smack habit, but never for 24 hours I would always feel shit in the mornings before going to the chemist to get my dose. Sucks when you are on supervised dosing and you can’t split (but also means you might get a small ‘buzz’ at the beginning of the day when you take it all). Good luck with your maintenance it’s nice to hear that some things are returning.

One other thing I would say is that when switching on to bupe don’t be tempted to max out the dose to try and get a bit of a high if you can manage on a smaller amount as I have made that mistake as well and you end up regretting it when the tapering down/detox comes. I did anyway.

 

[Painful One]

I've read a lot about loperamide, or Immodium as its known here. The amount people take seems a lot.

I can get by on less oxy than I take I'm just greedy if I have it; when I start to run out of it, or H, I can use a much smaller amount than I do when I've got plenty. Did you start by taking 8 or build it up until it stabilised?

Good luck with it, should definitely improve lots more once past day four

Yeah. I started at 8 mg.
The bottle said to take all 3 doses at once, one time a day.
But, I wanted to see if I could get by with less and feel out the dosage a bit.
Plus, my doctor said that since I used to take the morphine 3times a day, go ahead and dose it once 3 times a day.
So, that is what I did and I feel more comfortable on 16 mg. So, I have upped that second dose to earlier and to overlap with it.
Then I can take a 8 mg dose before bed and I can make it until morning.
I am really sleepy, kind of off balance.
Not kind of, I am off balance but I am regaining it. Quickly.
That is good.

Do not be afraid.
It is better.
It really is. It has made me just not worry about it, pain level is WAY better. I think the morphine started to give me pain after awhile.
If you find out more about how to taper down, once you stabilize, let me know please.
I am thinking about just doing that also.

Worst comes to worst though- this is better than where we were, you still are.
My doctor told me, I could stay on this for life if needed.
This is comfortable and way more functional.
Clear headed, you can feel again!
Libido coming back!
This is the way for me.

 

[Painful One]

That seems like a lot of bupe for that amount of morphine, but just goes to show that everyone is very different. 24mg held me from a gram a day IV smack habit, but never for 24 hours I would always feel shit in the mornings before going to the chemist to get my dose. Sucks when you are on supervised dosing and you can’t split (but also means you might get a small ‘buzz’ at the beginning of the day when you take it all). Good luck with your maintenance it’s nice to hear that some things are returning.

One other thing I would say is that when switching on to bupe don’t be tempted to max out the dose to try and get a bit of a high if you can manage on a smaller amount as I have made that mistake as well and you end up regretting it when the tapering down/detox comes. I did anyway.

I have a high from it now.
It is not as numbing.
Different.
I could grow to be just fine with it or...even maybe better without it.
I will try.
I will not torture myself though.
I have been through enough.
This does have a headache drawback that I am hoping could clear up when stabilized.
Will see how it goes.

 

[Painful One]

Day 5 here of switching to suboxone from 90 mg morphine a day.
Up at 1:50, tossed and turned till 3:37, got up and dosed 8 mg more suboxone.
Took some gabapentin and 1 mg clonazepam also.
I felt like shit but now it is calming down.

Sleep is very broken.
I am sleeping better just on the couch with t.v. Going in the background.

Headache is still an issue.
I am taking ibuprofen a few times a day now.
That worries me some, since I have had liver failure, I have to be careful with ibuprofen and stuff.
Hope the headache issue will clear up.

Honestly, I feel like going on vacation somewhere.
That is a good sign that I feel good enough to travel and want to be around people.
I just need something to do while I cannot sleep.

Maybe I will be able to go back to sleep soon.

 

[Nurse Ratched]

^ Might want to see if your Dr. will switch you to sub (utex ) instead of the sub ( oxone ). Many people feel it is the naloxone in sub ( oxone ) that gives them the headache.

Sub(utex ) is straight buprenorphine only. Just a thought. Suboxone gave me headaches as well. It was a constant dull thumping one so I can't take them.

Good luck and you are doing great. So happy that the transistion wasn't too difficult.

Hope the sleeping problem clears up too.

 

[Painful One]

^ Might want to see if your Dr. will switch you to sub (utex ) instead of the sub ( oxone ). Many people feel it is the naloxone in sub ( oxone ) that gives them the headache.

Sub(utex ) is straight buprenorphine only. Just a thought. Suboxone gave me headaches as well. It was a constant dull thumping one so I can't take them.

Good luck and you are doing great. So happy that the transistion wasn't too difficult.

Hope the sleeping problem clears up too.

Thank you SO MUCH!
That piece of information is HUGE for me.
I will not be able to continue with these unless I can get the headaches under control.
I see my doctor tomorrow and I will ask about that.

You have been such an invaluable help to me during this time @Nurse Ratched
Thank you and God bless you!