Jesus. Could he have been God's son?

[massive]

But Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). That means He claimed to be nothing less than God in human flesh.

Do you have any other sources to verify jesus actually said this? Wouldn't you agree you're puting all you egg's in one basket only relying on "john"?

 

[qwe]

"I and the Father are one"
massive, that doesn't mean that he is the christian god
eastern religions say anyone can become one with god
i believe you are misinterpreting him, which is a shame because he has some awsome messages

 

[vegan]

I would have serious doubts about a teacher who made such a statement.

based on what?
on your wishful thinking?

less doubts than about gregoire de tours who invents stories about a sheep thief who spontaneously combustes, for sure

Of course I'm aware that quoting scripture to your like falls on closed hearts and minds.

hey, before talking about closed minds, check your own first
go tell all asia that they have closed hearts and minds because they don't believe your fairy tales because they have their own

there's a whole world outside of the bible. mind you
people who have not been culturally brainwashed by it can read it as the mythology it is. and take the good teachings where they find them. but millions (or billions i hope) of people have open hearts and minds while putting the bible on the shelf with the iliad

 

[IAmJacksUserName]

there's a whole world outside of the bible. mind you
people who have not been culturally brainwashed by it can read it as the mythology it is. and take the good teachings where they find them. but millions (or billions i hope) of people have open hearts and minds while putting the bible on the shelf with the iliad

The Illiad was inspired by historical events, although to what extent is still debated. Troy was a real city in what is now modern-day Turkey (I've been to the ruins, in fact). It was located by a scholar who carefully examined Homer's work, and then used the text to locate it's precise location. When he left to search for it- sure enough, it was right where he thought it would be.

I think much of the Bible can be described in a similar way, especially the Old Testement. Other parts I think may actually be a historical record (Though not necessarly a perfect one, and obviously one with bias). There's no denying Jesus's existance, and the crucification is documented in historical records. Furthermore, there is further documentation of much of the New Testement in Greek and Roman records. My sister even saw an exact spot in Greece where Paul preached (According to the Greek records, the location is not specifically mentioned in the Bible that I know of). So clearly, some of the books in the Bible describe historical events- historians acknowlege that. With at least some credibility, it's impossible to discount those parts as definitely being myths.

 

[massive]

based on what?
on your wishful thinking?

umm your teacher made the claim that:

the martyrs whose feats were depicted had simply never existed and were just inventions of the local clergy

I would be asking for some, umm evidence to back up this sweeping statement. Maybe you should have too? 8)

 

[michael]

if i understand the way you said that, i really dont know why you lie so much to prove your points. i JUST watchd on VH1 the video clip of gore saying it. 8)

you have either been caught lying again or you are incredibly stupid (perhaps a little of both). what gore actually said was "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet." here's a souce for you.

caught you again!

but perhaps you'd like to back that statement up with a source?

PS: i have trouble believing a believer such as yourself would stoop to derailing a thread about jesus in such a shameful and scurrilous manner.

 

[vegan]

The Illiad was inspired by historical events

i know
it was inspired by historical events... and a prolific imagination
it says achilles was the son of a nereid, a sea nymph; the bible says jesus is the son of god
the odyssey talks tells about cyclops and sirens, the bible tells about walking on the water and making the blind see

My sister even saw an exact spot in Greece where Paul reached

i'm sorry, but there's a good chance your sister saw a totally random spot that the local clergy shows to tourists as paul's preaching spot
just as santiago de compostela attracts pilgims as the burial place of saint james although he's not buried there since he died thousands of kilometers away (in italy i think i remember) and there's no way there would have translated the rotting corpse fo the fun of it

anyone can say "this is the place where jesus sat" and put a box office before it
it takes more to make it a truth

I would be asking for some, umm evidence to back up this sweeping statement. Maybe you should have too?

and you're not asking evidence for gregoire de tours' stories of spontaneously combusting thieves?
you have pretty selective demands, don't you?

their claims were based on
- the incoherences between different tales about the same martyrs
- the facts that this tales magically appeared when the parish was in financial difficulties and needing the funds that could get them a revival of the local cult
- the sudden popping into existence of these supposedly martyrs from the past although there had been no records of their feats prior to their welcome "discovery"
- the archeologic incoherences (lack of sepulture)
- the curious similarities with other martyrs tales from other places (you don't change a team that wins)
- ockham's razor : what seems more reasonable, that when a local saint passed in front of a pagan temple, a lightning struck the altar destroying it, or that this is just christian propaganda?

 

[shady'sback]

Listen dude, here is what you said:

to put it into perspective: how many people do you know who will still believe something like 'al gore said he invented the internet', which is a colossally stupid lie? it's hardly been a few years, let alone several hundred.

So first you say that anyone saying that Gore said he "invented the internet" is telling a "Colossally stupid lie".

Then because i called you out on your lie, you come back and say he said: "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet."

Its easy to see that the word "invent" and the word "create" are synonyms and mean the same damned thing!

So for you to say it is a "stupid and colossal lie" that someone would say Gore sad he "invented" instead of "created" is nonsense. Yeah mike, there is SUCH a difference between "create" and "invent" that anyone interchanging those two words to mean the same thing can only be telling a colossal lie. 8)


Again, just to compare:

I invented the internet.

vs.

I took initiative in creating the internet.

And you are trying to say there is a colosal difference???

 

[elemenohpee]

what the fuck are you talking about dude?

 

[Dtergent]

Really, who cares about history? I mean, it's important for debunking fundies and stuff like that, but really, it misses the whole point of spirituality.

Is Jesus "the son of God"? Possibly, if we are not limiting it to the lacking personifications that characterize religious doctrine. Possibly, if we do not make him out to be the "only" son of God. See, I do believe that there are people who have a special and qualitative relationship with "The Source" or "God" or whatever you want to call it, and take pains in trying to make it comprehensible to common people, and use analogies that totally muddle things up, not because of ill intentions but because of a sort of miscommunication. I guess this is, in a way, what Otto refers to as a qualitative experience with the numinous or whatever you wish to call it, of course, there are things that are lost in the translation into words. In a way these people are all portrayed as "saviors" because they motivate people to become part of a greater whole observing itself.

It's vague and all that but that's my opinion.

 

[vegan]

shady'sback. you may find the delete post option handy to save your honour

understand michael's post
reread yours
shout "omgwtf!"
click edit
select 'delete post'
fill the reason for deleting with "this post never existed, you all imagined it"
confirm deleting
no one's seen anything

 

[michael]

Listen dude, here is what you said:

i know what i said.

And you are trying to say there is a colosal difference???

unless you are colossally stupid, there is an obvious fundamental difference.

 

[IAmJacksUserName]

i'm sorry, but there's a good chance your sister saw a totally random spot that the local clergy shows to tourists as paul's preaching spot
just as santiago de compostela attracts pilgims as the burial place of saint james although he's not buried there since he died thousands of kilometers away (in italy i think i remember) and there's no way there would have translated the rotting corpse fo the fun of it

anyone can say "this is the place where jesus sat" and put a box office before it
it takes more to make it a truth

My sister lived in Greece at the time, and speaks the language. She was no tourist, but a resident who was there studying classics, and had consequently learned of this location. The Greek records recorded the day and place where Paul preached. What more do you want, a photo of him preaching?

How do we even know that Julius Ceaser existed? How do we know of anything that ever occurred in history? Through historical records. Or do you think that anything that's at all tied with Christianity was forged?


EDIT:

Think of it this way. George Washington supposedly did a lot of things in his life that he didn't really do. He supposedly threw a dollar across a river, yet he didn't really. He was also supposed to have cut down a cherry tree belonging to his father when he was a boy, and being the honest person he was, confessed to his father. These stories aren't true, but they don't invalidate Washington's other feats in life. Maybe Jesus was similar in this way.

Vegan, you seem to think that all of these figures in the Bible were invented as part of "Christian propaganda", and you cite the words of your teachers and professors. While I'm not denying that there is an agenda in fundalmentalist Christianity, you forget that extreme atheistism (Or any extremism, for that matter) also has an agenda, and they themselves tend to resort to distorted facts to get their point across. When Christians deny that evolution could have ever existed, and when atheists refuse to acknowledge, or to even consider, agreed upon historical facts that somehow they feel back religion, the atheists are no less ignorant than the fundalmentalists.

 

[Turbo Monk]

i know what i said.

We all know what you said: you made 2 desperately weak allegories trying to discredit the gospel account because it doesn't line up with michael's timeline of how ancient documents should be compiled (truman) and pointed out that misleading sound bites/heresy can get people to believe lies (gore). The latter would be more applicable to a gay "gene" than this topic anyways.

 

[massive]

their claims were based on
- the incoherences between different tales about the same martyrs
- the facts that this tales magically appeared when the parish was in financial difficulties and needing the funds that could get them a revival of the local cult
- the sudden popping into existence of these supposedly martyrs from the past although there had been no records of their feats prior to their welcome "discovery"
- the archeologic incoherences (lack of sepulture)
- the curious similarities with other martyrs tales from other places (you don't change a team that wins)
- ockham's razor : what seems more reasonable, that when a local saint passed in front of a pagan temple, a lightning struck the altar destroying it, or that this is just christian propaganda?

Did I ask for a list of inconsistancies in biblical scriptures? No I asked you to back up the claim that the apostoles never existed. Which obviously you can't. I admit I have you cornered, but then you try to lash out with this comment:

and you're not asking evidence for gregoire de tours' stories of spontaneously combusting thieves?
you have pretty selective demands, don't you?

Did your teacher that claimed the apostoles simply didn't exist mention anything about allergory??? seems you missed out on that.

Allegory: a figurative mode of representation conveying a meaning other than and in addition to the literal.

 

[michael]

We all know what you said: you made 2 desperately weak allegories trying to discredit the gospel account because it doesn't line up with michael's timeline of how ancient documents should be compiled (truman) and pointed out that misleading sound bites/heresy can get people to believe lies (gore). The latter would be more applicable to a gay "gene" than this topic anyways.

uh, no.

i used two examples to demonstrate the fallibility of the original post, without addressing your precious gospel at all. the fact that you find them 'desperately weak' speaks more about your true believer syndrome than anything else. i might add that apparently SHATT has no clue what i said.

 

[shady'sback]

i know what i said.



unless you are colossally stupid, there is an obvious fundamental difference.

You took the smart path on this one, just ignore it and it will go away, eh? lol I made my point. There is not a "colossal" difference between I invented the internet" and "i took the initiative in creating the internet". lol I dont know where you learned english bro, but i didnt expect you to own up to your lies.

 

[shady'sback]

My sister lived in Greece at the time, and speaks the language. She was no tourist, but a resident who was there studying classics, and had consequently learned of this location. The Greek records recorded the day and place where Paul preached. What more do you want, a photo of him preaching?

How do we even know that Julius Ceaser existed? How do we know of anything that ever occurred in history? Through historical records. Or do you think that anything that's at all tied with Christianity was forged?


EDIT:

Think of it this way. George Washington supposedly did a lot of things in his life that he didn't really do. He supposedly threw a dollar across a river, yet he didn't really. He was also supposed to have cut down a cherry tree belonging to his father when he was a boy, and being the honest person he was, confessed to his father. These stories aren't true, but they don't invalidate Washington's other feats in life. Maybe Jesus was similar in this way.

Vegan, you seem to think that all of these figures in the Bible were invented as part of "Christian propaganda", and you cite the words of your teachers and professors. While I'm not denying that there is an agenda in fundalmentalist Christianity, you forget that extreme atheistism (Or any extremism, for that matter) also has an agenda, and they themselves tend to resort to distorted facts to get their point across. When Christians deny that evolution could have ever existed, and when atheists refuse to acknowledge, or to even consider, agreed upon historical facts that somehow they feel back religion, the atheists are no less ignorant than the fundalmentalists.

Good post bro!

 

[vegan]

My sister lived in Greece at the time, and speaks the language

and the spaniards who live in santiago de compastela speak spanish, and are also told and believe that saint james is buried there, although it's not true

How do we even know that Julius Ceaser existed? How do we know of anything that ever occurred in history? Through historical records. Or do you think that anything that's at all tied with Christianity was forged?

i find easier to believe it when told that ceasar invaded france, and that you can find testimonies of roman occupation or statues archeologically dated from the period conresponding to what the texts say, than to believe when shown a grotto that it's where the virgin appeared, curiously at the same time the vatican was trying to raise its popularity among women by for instance deciding/inventing about mary's immaculate conception

i'm not saying that everything linked to christianity is forged
but that it take its inspiration among both history and invented tales

and consequently, seeing the habit of the church to invent stories to fit its goals, i'm very sceptic about anything that could be invented as propaganda

you forget that extreme atheistism (Or any extremism, for that matter) also has an agenda, and they themselves tend to resort to distorted facts to get their point across.

if you're thinking about the teachers i mentionned, the one who told us about saint james' burial site was obviously christian

No I asked you to back up the claim that the apostoles never existed

Did your teacher that claimed the apostoles simply didn't exist mention anything about allergory?

you misread what i said
those teachers never said the apostoles didn't exist
and i didn't either
one gave the example of saint james, saying he existed but died far away from santiago and was obviously not buried there
the other talked about the martyrs mentionned in the texts we studied
those martyrs where not the apostoles and i didn't say so
those texts were not the bible either

then i extrapolated that because the legend says 11 apostoles died martyrs doesn't mean it's true
maybe they did
but since the church is used to inventing martyr stories to add some fascination to its cult, i don't see why the apostoles stories would have been spoiled of some embellisment too

I admit I have you cornered

how about a lesson of humility?

Did your teacher that claimed the apostoles simply didn't exist mention anything about allergory??? seems you missed out on that.

what do you mean by that?
that gregoire de tours' stories have the right to be allegories but that the bible is the exact truth???

 

[shady'sback]

curiously at the same time the vatican was trying to raise its popularity among women by for instance deciding/inventing about mary's immaculate conception

that is an incorrect statement. you need to brush up on your history, specifically that of the christian church before you go spouting off such nonsense. Also, you show your lack of knowledge simply by the fact you are unaware of the massive amount of historical documents that backup early church histroy. There is plenty of proof out there outside of the bible, you my friend, just need to open your eyes and read it for yourself.

There is tons of archeological evidence to backup many specfic claims in the bible that you still need to learn as well. Literally, there is mountains of evidence out there to backup what i believe, just because you happen to be unaware of it doesnt make a bit of difference. It just tells me you lack knowledge.