Jesus. Could he have been God's son?

[massive]

the martyrs whose feats were depicted had simply never existed and were just inventions of the local clergy trying to advertise their parish and give it some cult following

you should have said "the feats of the martyrs that were depicted had simply never existed and were just investions"
would have saved me three posts.

 

[vegan]

massive, sorry about the misunderstanding

[...] than to believe when shown a grotto that it's where the virgin appeared, curiously at the same time the vatican was trying to raise its popularity among women by for instance deciding/inventing about mary's immaculate conception

that is an incorrect statement. you need to brush up on your history, specifically that of the christian church before you go spouting off such nonsense

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception

"The Feast of the Immaculate Conception of Mary had been established in 1483 by Pope Sixtus IV who stopped short of defining the doctrine as a dogma of the Catholic Faith, thus giving Catholics freedom to believe in this or not"

"The Immaculate Conception was solemnly defined as a dogma by Pope Pius IX in his constitution Ineffabilis Deus, published December 8, 1854"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lourdes

"It is said that in February 1858 the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared to a 14-year-old girl called Bernadette Soubirous (now St. Bernadette) in the remote Grotto of Massabielle"

Also, you show your lack of knowledge simply by the fact you are unaware of the massive amount of historical documents that backup early church histroy. There is plenty of proof out there outside of the bible

as you should have understood from my posts, i don't pretend that everything said to be church history is a lie
but instead of believing everything blindly, i point out where the church had an interest in manipulationg its history
and when you get any archeological proof of jesus' miracles, you can come back to criticize my sceptism

until then, you can pretend i lack knowledge if that makes you feel better, but you certainly don't lack credulity

 

[vegan]

oh, btw, no that i reread massive's post, some of the martyrs in the texts were indeed most probably invented, not just their feats
but these texts were not about the apostoles

 

[shady'sback]

^Ok, you are referring specifically to catholics. My bad. I took your post initially to be referring to the early church, not the Vatican. Even though you DID say the vatican specifically. Sorry about that. I read your post too quickly and thats my mistake. sorry again.

just for the record, this does NOT apply to anyone outside of the catholic religion:

"The Feast of the Immaculate Conception of Mary had been established in 1483 by Pope Sixtus IV who stopped short of defining the doctrine as a dogma of the Catholic Faith, thus giving Catholics freedom to believe in this or not"

"The Immaculate Conception was solemnly defined as a dogma by Pope Pius IX in his constitution Ineffabilis Deus, published December 8, 1854"

 

[michael]

You took the smart path on this one, just ignore it and it will go away, eh? lol I made my point. There is not a "colossal" difference between I invented the internet" and "i took the initiative in creating the internet". lol I dont know where you learned english bro, but i didnt expect you to own up to your lies.

uh, yes there is. i'm not sure where you learned english, but it certainly seems that a dictionary had nothing to do with it. not to mention that you also don't seem to understand the importance of context in reading comprehension.

do you really expect people here to take you seriously?

 

[wendisoul]

The Original Question....... Could Jesus have been God's Son?

Yes... He was, just as I am God's daughter and you are God's son or daughter.



THE QUESTION IS.......

Was He MORE than God's son?

I think that a lot of good points have been made in favor of the answer to that question being "yes". I am sure that prior to Christ, men had come forth with similar messages, but the fact that he was able to actually get people to really believein his ideas of peace and love is pretty amazing in and of itself for that time period. To know that the disciples died for a man they knew had risen from the dead is pretty convincing to me that the resurrection wasn't a lie. Was he any better than me.... he would say "no"... but I would say "yes" because he offered his life as the final symbolic sacrifice for sin, he offered a world of peace, and he made all of closer to God.

Jesus = God???? I know that if God is anything like Jesus, then I have an amazing creator.

 

[scottodoit]

^^^^^^^
Wow, that’s quite a house of cards you got there.

There is NO historical proof that any of the apostles died as martyrs. Their are no records from the first century to attest to even one of them being martyred. Hell there is no proof any of them followed on with Christianity after the death of Jesus. FEEL FREE TO SHOW ME EVEN ONE EYE WITNESS RECORD from the first century.


If I was to talk about someone who was born under the sign of the star in the east, was baptized by someone who was later decapitated, had no history between 12 and 30, walked on water, cast out demons and healed the sick. Was transfigured on a mountain in view of two of his disciples. Delivered a sermon on a mount, crucified between two thieves, buried in a tomb, resurrected, was called Christ. Called the good shepherd, the lamb of God, bread of life, son of man, the word, decended into hell to preach to the souls of the dead, is to reign for a thousand years, came to seek that which was lost. You would assume I was talking about Jesus. I am not, all of these and many other striking similarities could be read about a thousand years before in Egypt about Horis - the Egyptian God. The Gospel writers weren't even original.

referenced from 'The pagan christ' Tom Harpur

 

[IAmJacksUserName]

^^^^^^^
Wow, that’s quite a house of cards you got there.

There is NO historical proof that any of the apostles died as martyrs. Their are no records from the first century to attest to even one of them being martyred. Hell there is no proof any of them followed on with Christianity after the death of Jesus. FEEL FREE TO SHOW ME EVEN ONE EYE WITNESS RECORD from the first century.

Care to back that up? You're contradicting what's generally believed by historians.

And how could Christianity have spread without the apostles help?

If I was to talk about someone who was born under the sign of the star in the east, was baptized by someone who was later decapitated, had no history between 12 and 30, walked on water, cast out demons and healed the sick. Was transfigured on a mountain in view of two of his disciples. Delivered a sermon on a mount, crucified between two thieves, buried in a tomb, resurrected, was called Christ. Called the good shepherd, the lamb of God, bread of life, son of man, the word, decended into hell to preach to the souls of the dead, is to reign for a thousand years, came to seek that which was lost. You would assume I was talking about Jesus. I am not, all of these and many other striking similarities could be read about a thousand years before in Egypt about Horis - the Egyptian God. The Gospel writers weren't even original.

referenced from 'The pagan christ' Tom Harpur

Glancing at the reviews from Amazon, it seems as though this Harpur is full of it. It doesn't look as though Egyptologists take this guy seriosuly at all.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/08...104-5178148-6243163?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

Read the first review.

 

[scottodoit]

^^^^^^^^^
"Care to back that up? You're contradicting what's generally believed by historians.

And how could Christianity have spread without the apostles help?"


I'm sure there are many Christian historians that say that (no doubt they also hold to bible inerrancy). I am also sure many do not. It's easy to generalize like that. As I said one first century source will do.
There are as many scenarios’ that could account for the rise of Christianity as one cares to imagine. All as hypothetical as yours. WE SIMPLY DON'T KNOW.

As for the Horis thing. I don't know if I believe the whole theory. I think there is probably a grain of truth there. I find it interesting though that many of the stories attributed to Jesus were around in similar form before the gospels.
Thanks for the link though. I read the review and there were a couple of good points.

 

[DarthMom]

None of the biblical christ mythology is really that original. even early church fathers knew this and resorted to a quite silly explanation "diabolical mimicry" egad, the devil tried to trick everyone by doing it first! oy.

Do the research on your own, i am not a mythology expert, don't recall what I have read enough to spout off example after example, but then again, looking for it on your own would be more persuasive anyway, wouldn't it?

here is a site to get you started. http://www.medmalexperts.com/POCM/getting_started_pocm.html

research the facts on your own, to verify.

the salvation bringer, the virgin births, the born in a cave/born in a manger, mortal mother/god father, and on and on and on.....



and, there is no written account of Jesus outside of the Bible. Josephus' writings are widely known/accepted as being falsified by many/most scholars. the romans were prolific writers and historians at that time. we know all about the defeat of verciforax, or whatever the hell that guy from gaul was named, yet the SON OF GOD doesn't deserve a little bit of writing?

and in regards to proof of Pauls teachings of your sister, who cares? Paul didn't even know christ. I think it is galatians where it is said he preached christianity for 3 years before going to meet disciples in jerusalem. and not original disciples even.

what a crock of shite. i am shocked christianity has gotten this far really, when you dig in and really research it.

Im inclined to believe in the "gnostic paul" theory. his teachings apparently were distorted by the church. what a shocker!

those are just a few reasons I don't believe in a literal christ, but the pagan christ myth is vitally important, imo. it just went downhill when idiots started to take it literally.

and should it even bothered to be mentioned something as obvious as the birth being celebrated at the winter solstice and the death and resurrection in spring. *yawn*

 

[ezbakeoven]

how do we know that any of the bible is true? i was under the impression that the romans re-wrote the bible hundreds of years later.

 

[WhatUpDun]

tatoo's real with god's son across the belly

nas is god's son, according to his ink and the 2002 album featuring one of the most symmetrically perfect beats ever on "made you look"

 

[DarthMom]

I really hate when I get excited about a response to a slow thread, then read something like that above me.

although if you are just tryign to be funny then ok fine. haha

 

[bleedingheartcommie]

it's a matter of rough translation

what he said is better translated to english as 'I am with God' rather than 'the son of god'

 

[IAmJacksUserName]

^^

Yeah, same is true with the Virgin Mary. "Virgin" means something more along the lines of "pure" in the original text, I believe.