Jan 6 Attack on the Capitol and the aftermath

[Trotsky's Specter]

How does that final sentence square with the reality of the rise of fascism in the "classical fascist" regimes of Italy and Germany, both of which had large and vibrant left-wing movements prior to the arrival of Italian Fascism and German Nazism?

The KPD (communist party) pretty much continually expanded its voter base prior to Nazi Germany, and reached its electoral high-water mark in the last free election of the Weimar Republic, at the end of 1932. So in that case you had a worker's program being advocated for by an actual communist party, and yet the fascists still took power. (Trotskyists would probably blame this on Stalin's influence in the KPD, but the point is that pro-working class reform was being advocated for by a left-wing movement in Germany which, taken together, was always larger than the vote share captured by the Nazis, and yet that didn't stop them from taking power. To reduce all of this to the influence of one man, Stalin, seems reductionist to me and almost like an inverted "great man" theories of history that left-wingers like to disparage)



Trotsky got stuff wrong too...his agreement with the official line of fascism being "capitalism in decay" is case-in-point imo

Greetings, Burnt Offering:

Thank-you for the reply. I'm a novice here and am only beginning to learn how Bluelight works. I have started a dedicated thread for Marxist/socialist themes. While your point re: the victory of fascism in Germany is important, it occurs to me that this might better fit the new thread. Perhaps an administrator will relocate your post to that thread. I'll check in after a day or so. If not, I'll reply here.

Take care!

-- Trotsky's Specter --

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

The news commentator incorrectly asserts (~1:00) that the speech alienated MAGA republicans who are caught between two ends of the political spectrum. Sorry, there is nothing centrist about MAGA repubs. They have proven over and over again that they are extremists who will stop at nothing to keep their messiah in power.

The guest (~3:55) stated something about democracy is for everyone, not just people who vote the way we like. IMHO the hypocrisy is astounding that Trump followers not only invaded the capitol but have spent 2 years still arguing that he won the election. The guest is openly projecting conservative talking points onto Biden as if Trump and his cronies accepted his election loss quietly. Trump hasn't even conceded his loss yet ffs.

This newscast, regardless of being Australian, is clearly right wing biased no different than Fox, Newsmax, OAN, etc.

Once again, we have some news show's opinion of the speech with less than a full minute of the actual speech played back. C'mon CK, I wanna hear what you think about the speech. It's only 25 minutes long. I'm not saying it will change your mind or opinion about anything but at least it won't be some talking head's regurgitation telling us what they want us to think about it.

Hi Jerry!

I hear you loud and clear with your claim that the News coverage was seemingly a right leaning outlet. How about coverage from CNN ? This one I''ll post now is making very similar points, namely Joe Biden has had a chance to be a uniting force, but this speech was decidedly divisive.
I was actually shocked at CNN's position to be honest. The times, they are a-changing it appears.





To me Biden's demeanor and body language screamed Hitler and Mussolini and his rhetoric called for agreeing with him or being the "enemy". I understand your claims that "Trump does it" is true, but does that make it right? That seems like a very low goal post to set, doesn't it? Joe Biden ran on being "the adult" and bringing unity to the nation but he is acting the exact opposite. I don't like Trump and when Biden takes a move from Trump that doesn't make it OK. All Biden did was make himself look like he is running out of options and has lost his ability to think clearly and decisively. His choice of Blood Red and Black instead of Red White and Blue was an interesting touch. I couldn't help but think about those two Marines standing there as if to imply that "if you don't agree, there will be consequences." Bad marketing Mr President !


I think it was a missed opportunity on his part and that he played his cards the wrong way.

Besides, I am really not trying to establish a position on one side or the other at this point, I am trying to foster conversation by purposefully being narrative to allow others to join the conversation and express their position. OK ?

 

[Burnt Offerings]

Joe Biden has had a chance to be a uniting force

Has he, though?

Serious question, and one which I think Jerry touched on in that post you quoted. It's hard to imagine what Biden could possibly say or do that would be "uniting", at least within the context of a televised address.

The people who are dead set against him, who see him either as a doddering old fart who doesn't know where he is half the time, or Hitler, or a doddering old Hitler, there's nothing he can do, in the short-term, to win those people over.

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

Has he, though?

Serious question, and one which I think Jerry touched on in that post you quoted. It's hard to imagine what Biden could possibly say or do that would be "uniting", at least within the context of a televised address.

The people who are dead set against him, who see him either as a doddering old fart who doesn't know where he is half the time, or Hitler, or a doddering old Hitler, there's nothing he can do, in the short-term, to win those people over.

Interesting point!

Let's all unpack all this together and see if there is any common ground

 

[Electrum1]

He could increase oil and nat gas drilling to bring down inflation and energy costs, instead of restricting those

Commission new nuclear plants too

 

[nepalnt21]

i hate that we've stunted nuclear so hard, we coulda prolly been off the fossil teat so long ago

 

[Jerry Atrick]

Hi Jerry!

I hear you loud and clear with your claim that the News coverage was seemingly a right leaning outlet. How about coverage from CNN ? This one I''ll post now is making very similar points, namely Joe Biden has had a chance to be a uniting force, but this speech was decidedly divisive.
I was actually shocked at CNN's position to be honest. The times, they are a-changing it appears.





To me Biden's demeanor and body language screamed Hitler and Mussolini and his rhetoric called for agreeing with him or being the "enemy". I understand your claims that "Trump does it" is true, but does that make it right? That seems like a very low goal post to set, doesn't it? Joe Biden ran on being "the adult" and bringing unity to the nation but he is acting the exact opposite. I don't like Trump and when Biden takes a move from Trump that doesn't make it OK. All Biden did was make himself look like he is running out of options and has lost his ability to think clearly and decisively. His choice of Blood Red and Black instead of Red White and Blue was an interesting touch. I couldn't help but think about those two Marines standing there as if to imply that "if you don't agree, there will be consequences." Bad marketing Mr President !


I think it was a missed opportunity on his part and that he played his cards the wrong way.

Besides, I am really not trying to establish a position on one side or the other at this point, I am trying to foster conversation by purposefully being narrative to allow others to join the conversation and express their position. OK ?

All very good points, sir. After Las Vegas Grower and I sparred about the seeming neutrality of CNN, it appears that the network has taken, and is taking, a far right turn. The times are indeed a changin'.

The changes at CNN look politically motivated. That should concern us all | Robert Reich

Brian Stelter’s very popular and commerically successful show was axed. The reason? Follow the money

www.theguardian.com

Also, from what I've read and from pics, the background was meant to be red, white, and blue but for whatever reason, the cameras never panned to show the entire color scheme. I saw one pic a few days ago with all 3 colors but this is the best I could find today from a google image search.

As for the content of the speech, I agree two wrongs don't make a right. However I also have seen Trump make literally dozens of speeches where he said far worse things about dems and RINOs. This was just a single speech, hardly equal in magnitude or quantity. IMHO Biden has tried the unity and compromise route and it has not gotten him far at all. I think it is high time he fight fire with fire, which is why I approve of the speech. I think he is correct to call MAGA repubs fascists not only for their Jan 6 attempt to install an authoritarian dictator but for their ceaseless rhetoric as well. Sometimes one has to call a spade a spade and that is what he did. Of course the MAGAs are butthurt; they are finally being called what they are and don't like it. Tough titty said the kitty....

And I know you are trying to not take sides on this, but I am

 

[nepalnt21]

speaking of RINOs, has the republican party become the trump party? what happened to it being the conservative party?

strange times when liz cheney, one of THE most conservative members of congress, is considered a RINO... so what's the new REAL conservative party, and when can i expect them to contend with republicans on local and national tickets?

also, anyone ever go down the q- anon rabbit hole?

i looked into it a couple times... some heavy christian nationalism there... fucking scary, and ironic that trump of all people is pretty much their poster child.

i, for one, will not lay down and let christian nationalists steal my country without a fight.

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

And I know you are trying to not take sides on this, but I am

That's great, Jerry!

I hope others will express their positions, too.

 

[Jabberwocky]

You know, one of the most obvious things to me is that both sides are seemingly completely oblivious to their own side's hypocrisy and lies. They scream the other's, yet when pointed out their own politicians do the same or worse they turn a blind eye or downplay it.

It's honestly terrifying and baffling to me. We are highly intelligent beings.... but indefinitely fallible and dumb as fuck.

How anyone could actually defend Trump through this after he based half of his campaign on Hillary doing something similar is beyond me.

We're fucked as a species.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

LOL I remember back in late 2016, when the announcement came in that the FBI was taking another look at the Hillary email situation, Trump was going to his events praising the FBI

Criticisms of the FBI resonate with me but I'm not convinced that the vast majority of people who bring stuff up like that, from the right, are sincere in their talking points. I'm sure that the only problem they have with police repression is the fact that it's their political leader Donald J. Trump who's the recipient of it...if it's not Trump or some MAGA jihadi somewhere, they don't give a shit

 

[deficiT]

This morning, the World Socialist Web Site published a perspective on Biden’s Thursday speech. While not naming the failed coup of January 6, the perspective may offer insight into subsequent conditions. I prepared the following summary of the WSWS overview of Biden's Thursday speech:

Having preached ‘bi-partisanship’ and a ‘strong’ GOP, Biden warns that a distinctive form of US fascism is a serious threat. Blaming Trump voters for nearing dictatorship, he offered gnostic, moralistic platitudes cast in ‘semi-infantile oratory’ for which electing Democrats is the solution. This was not explained from history, economics or politics. He did not say why 74M [including many proletarians], backed Trump. He made no mention of economic or class interests, or of corporate/fiscal rule over both parties. Nor was the contradiction of ‘anti-Establishment’ demagogy and Trump’s ruling-class support indicated.

This morning’s piece explained what might be called a malevolent, bi-partisan symbiosis:



The perspective continues:



Rooted in ongoing, historical/political/economic crises, the impetus which drove the January 6 failed coup remains intact. So Biden is not wrong to speak of ongoing crisis; but he is utterly opposed to uniting and leading the one force which can end it.

That task therefore falls to the working class, which is the 90%.

Source: Biden's Speech and the Danger of Fascism in America

For more on the WSWS [International Committee of the Fourth International] perspective on the January 6 coup.

– Trotsky’s Specter –

Never thought I'd live to see a Trot BLer. Have to say it's been an interesting treat.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Watch Jared Kushner Wilt When Asked Repeatedly Why Trump Was Hoarding Top-Secret Documents​

Once again, the Brits show us that the key is to ask the same question, over and over, until you get an answer.

 

[nepalnt21]

do you guys think traitor trump will get the saddam necktie treatment?

 

[Xorkoth]

I think there is virtually no chance of that, and even if, hypothetically, I thought it was justified, I think there is a good chance it could be the tipping point into all-out civil war or at least intense civil unrest. The best thing that could happen, IMO, is that Trump runs again and is soundly defeated. Obviously some people would still cry foul no matter what happens, but he's certainly not gaining supporters ever since Jan 6th. And more people who are not Trump idolators would move on from him. But if he becomes a true pariah, all bets are off.

Actually the best thing that could happen is that he gets taken to trial and the trial is highly publicized and convincing.

Basically, we need to defuse this situation as best as we can. A lot of people tacitly support Trump because they won't support Biden, or won't support any Democrat, but they aren't fans of Trump really, either. If the RNC got some scruples, they'd run someone besides Trump. Who would almost certainly win, and maybe they'd start to pull the party back from the edge it's teetering on right now.

 

[Burnt Offerings]

do you guys think traitor trump will get the saddam necktie treatment?

That would require something unprecedented to happen, i.e. Trump actually being held responsible and facing consequences for his actions

 

[Jerry Atrick]

I think there is virtually no chance of that, and even if, hypothetically, I thought it was justified, I think there is a good chance it could be the tipping point into all-out civil war or at least intense civil unrest. The best thing that could happen, IMO, is that Trump runs again and is soundly defeated. Obviously some people would still cry foul no matter what happens, but he's certainly not gaining supporters ever since Jan 6th. And more people who are not Trump idolators would move on from him. But if he becomes a true pariah, all bets are off.

Unfortunately, he may not be gaining supporters per se but his current supporters, insurrectionists, and election deniers are gaining seats in elections from local to national. I get sick every time I see an election denier get voted in for some position that puts them in power over the election process itself. I don't think running and losing would go as smoothly as you suggest. Unless he lost the primary.

Actually the best thing that could happen is that he gets taken to trial and the trial is highly publicized and convincing.

Agreed.

Basically, we need to defuse this situation as best as we can. A lot of people tacitly support Trump because they won't support Biden, or won't support any Democrat, but they aren't fans of Trump really, either. If the RNC got some scruples, they'd run someone besides Trump. Who would almost certainly win, and maybe they'd start to pull the party back from the edge it's teetering on right now.

On the flip side of that coin, there are plenty of people who vote democrat that don't like Biden, myself included. I simply understand/understood the clear and present danger of a second Trump term for our democracy, which is why I voted for JB in the general election anyway.

Unfortunately the only other candidate I see the RNC putting forward is Ron DeSantis. I see him as almost more dangerous than Trump because he is not as openly belligerent and is actually smart and a better public speaker. Still a snake though. He also has authoritarian tendencies in the way he is running Florida, like how he created an election police force that is prolly ignoring cases of republican fraud and only targeting democrats.

 

[Jabberwocky]

After making a hissy fit and calling for a special master in his case, Trump is now calling to fire the special master (that he agreed to) after he did regular special master things and asked for information from Trump. Trump now wants an "extra special master" (which doesn't exist), aka a blatant call out for someone corrupt who will do his bidding.


“This Dearie, he’s a beauty, he really is,” Trump told reporters. “He’s asking for information. He’s asking for information like you wouldn’t believe. He’s a bad or sick guy.”

Larry David himself could not write a script like this.

Trump Demands Special Master Be Fired and Replaced with Extra-Special Master

The former President told reporters that Judge Raymond Dearie is “asking for information like you wouldn’t believe. He’s a bad or sick guy.”

www.newyorker.com

 

[Cheshire_Kat]

Each and every day I keep hoping that I'm in some kind of Kafkaesque nightmare, but alas it's not a dream. At least at 82 y/o I won't have to go through as much of the aftermath of all this devolution.as you young'ns.

Are we not men?

 

[Jabberwocky]

Pressed to explain what he meant by an “extra-special master,” Trump said, “We need somebody in there, somebody who’s more special than this Dearie joker. If Dearie is special, then I don’t know what special is.”

Claiming that Dearie is “rigged against me,” Trump said, “After that guy is fired and goes back to Antifa or wherever he came from, we’ve got to find out what idiot chose him in the first place. This should never be allowed to happen in our country.”


Trump is literally insane and thinks the world revolves around whatever his desire is.