IVing NBOMe compounds.

[weadazoid]

OK so basic question: why? is it just curiosity, because to me 7 to 10 minutes to onset seems fine. The idea of chasing the dragon / vapeing is as far as I would go. But if what Transform says is true ( and from my experience the guys speaks the truth ) I would be concerned. The point of any psychedelic experience is a good long trip IMO lasting at least a few hours. If it is placed into a time warp then all the fun is kind of taken away.


The only reason people are looking at other ROA's is mainly due to the awful taste that NBOMe's have on a sublingual level. Nasal ROA of 500 mics hit me quite nicely recently, and while I did have a tiny urge to redose I backed off that urge. Nasal ROA for me of say 6 to 700 mics is probably my sweet spot and will draw out a similar effect to a 1mg sublingual ROA.


Another lighter here noted that Vapeing still leaves a rather bad taste in the mouth, so for me it is kinda pointless....... seems inline with pyschadelic meth or something based on Transforms description, and the idea of redosing based on desire to plateau as one does with say coke, on a drug that is soooo potent and tends to render vasco constrticition at higher doses it all just sounds too dangerous.

 

[bloodshed344]

Why dose a compound with unknown effects in a way that can be ineffective for any number of reasons (Accidentally swallowed spit, didnt put the blotter in the right place, snorted it and it went down my throat)?

All of you people suggesting IV is somehow more dangerous than other methods are quite simply talking out of your asses, aka talking without thinking. Other methods are more dangerous than IV. IV is the safest method to use most drugs.

However, like the moderator above, I agree you should try vaporization first.

 

[Dmt-Rex]

^^agree completely. If you're using proper techniques IVing is the most accurate way to dose. I've never tried smoking it. I have two solutions with 25i at a concentration of 2mg per ml. the first solution I made with 100 proof vodka so it will def be easier to evaporate. What would be the best way to evaporate a given dosage to smoke it and best way to smoke it. Sorry to get off topic

 

[bloodshed344]

^^agree completely. If you're using proper techniques IVing is the most accurate way to dose. I've never tried smoking it. I have two solutions with 25i at a concentration of 2mg per ml. the first solution I made with 100 proof vodka so it will def be easier to evaporate. What would be the best way to evaporate a given dosage to smoke it and best way to smoke it. Sorry to get off topic

I would help you but I only have experience with vaporizing it in solid form.

 

[Dmt-Rex]

I got it figured out. I evaporated a 1/2 ml. Then dissolved it in .1ml of the solution and put it on a cig. It's drying now.

 

[GreenMachine]

Thanks for the smart ass reply. You're really helping. How can you say there's no benefit if you haven't tried it? Oh and most deaths are from people not measuring properly or snorting lines they eyeballed out.
Thanks for your 'concern' but I'm going to go ahead and disregard your post. Yes its a new chemical with an unknown safety profile. You'd have to be an idiot not to realize that. Especially since they're branded 'research chemicals'. Unless of course you don't know the definition of those two words. But myself and the dozens of people I've done it with never had an issue with these compounds. Probably because we measure our dose, don't over do it, and never combine substances. Its called responsibility. And some people have it while others lack it. I've used these compounds up in the 2-4mg range without any issues or any signs vasoconstriction. Proving people react differently. I said I was going to start low, and in reality IVing is no different than other ROAs. If you're okay with people plugging these compounds you shouldn't be so arrogant about IV use.

Anyway, if someone who can offer legitimate information or perhaps an experience they can share that'd be great. Smart ass comments will be ignored, so don't waste your time.
Thanks.

as someone experienced with psychedelics and the IV roa, this is a terrible fucking idea. have you IVed psychedelic drugs before? do you even have experience with injecting drugs?

i hope you are trolling, NBOMe drugs have killed people when taken sublingually. if you are really dying to shoot up some psychedelics you should probably start with something like LSD or DMT. however this is a harm reduction forum and not a prohibition forum so if you are set on doing this i guess just do it in the safest way possible

 

[Anon610]

as someone experienced with psychedelics and the IV roa, this is a terrible fucking idea. have you IVed psychedelic drugs before? do you even have experience with injecting drugs?

i hope you are trolling, NBOMe drugs have killed people when taken sublingually. if you are really dying to shoot up some psychedelics you should probably start with something like LSD or DMT. however this is a harm reduction forum and not a prohibition forum so if you are set on doing this i guess just do it in the safest way possible

Yeah because I'm just gonna stick a needle in my arm without any idea how to do it.
Of course I know how to IV drugs. I've IV'd DMT over 50 times. Also, its probably the most accurate way of measuring out your dose. And according to Erowid most people die because of careless use. Like that kid in Texas that snorting a line. Because you know, you should totally snort a substance active in the microgram range. Give me a break, I'm not a child.

Also, here's my schedule for this:
Day 1 - 2µg via IV.
Day 17 - 3µg via IV.
Day 33 - 4µg via IV.

And so on. I'm doing this because of the rapid tolerance you build. And allergy test will be performed (Do one every time.) with about half a microgram.
Volumetric measuring is very accurate if you know what you're doing. After about 5-8 trials I will cease use, unless those doses aren't active. In which case I'll have to find the threshold. I've been reading people's experience with IVing the substance and from my reading those doses are very, very, low. So the right amount could be 250µg or even more. Its something I have to find out since everyone's brain chemistry is different. After these NBOMe trials I plan to document IVing LSD with DMT in it. I'm hoping that these NBOMe's have a much more spiritual experience to them with IV being the ROA. Its a longshot though.

At this point I could care less if you call me a dumbass or think I'm trolling. I'm very aware of the risks and I made it quite evident I'm going to do this. So the best thing you can do is offer me a safe dosing regimen or not reply at all.
But of course everyone has to say something.

 

[Solipsis]

stuff

I trust that someone who is defensive can find pretty much any reason to try anything...

Anyway it seems you at least try to compensate with appropriate dosage to make up for the overkill of this ROA.

Would an optimally effective ROA be nice for a drug that can be inconsistent with any ROA that delays it? Yes.
But would that justify choosing the most acute ROA, projecting that acute plasma levels might be especially worrying? No.

If you choose that yes over that no, I seriously call your motivations into question. Meaning I suspect a considerable bias. You can defend this supposed bias together with your health, or optionally, stop pretending to be fair - as if either objectively or otherwise scientifically - in this question.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

@anon610, given the greater observed toxicity of full agonists versus our tried and true partial agonists, I must repeat the advice that you avoid exploring this route for these particular substances.

I've been heavily documenting the effects of the NBOMe compounds lately.
I've been curious about it, and today after reading some anecdotal reports on IVing these substances I decided I would try it for research purposes.

You are not a researcher, you're a young struggling addict with a needle fixation¹. In your current state you are emotionally compromised, and unable to make a sound decision about engaging in such blatantly self-destructive/high-risk behavior. Obviously I can't stop you from doing it, but I beg you to delay any experimentation with this until you've got your shit sorted out, and can see things more clearly.

Psychedelics have great capacity to heal as well as harm, and treating them with respect will take you a long way. Ask yourself why you want to do this, and what you really hope to gain, versus what could be gained, and what enjoyment had, from a less risk intensive route of administration. We're not calling you an idiot by recommending against this, it's just that we value the lives of our members, and risk of fatality is a rare thing as far as activities of PDers go. It's a frightening possibility, and one that is oh so easily avoided.

All of you people suggesting IV is somehow more dangerous than other methods are quite simply talking out of your asses, aka talking without thinking. Other methods are more dangerous than IV. IV is the safest method to use most drugs.

You're the only one here not thinking. How many things can go wrong from injected drugs versus other ROAs? I'm not even going to get into diseases or IV complications not related to the drug itself.

In New South Whales, a whopping 1% of heroin ODs occurred from non-IV routes of administration during the 4 year period of this study. Here we find 18 people who died from smoked/snorted heroin, out of 239 overdose deaths in a Swedish study (that is, ~7.5%). IV users were three times more likely to have suffered a nonfatal cocaine overdose in Sydney, and four times more likely to have witnessed an overdose occur.

To the inevitable illogical comment that it's safe if you do everything perfectly...you can say that about anything. Juggling flaming swords is safe so long as you do it perfectly, but people have died from getting plastic grocery bags tied around their heads, Q.E.D. juggling swords that are on fire must be safer than handling plastic grocery bags. The risk of particular activity, comes from the number, likelihood and severity of things that can go wrong, backed up by good old fashioned empirical evidence about how this plays out in real life. Injecting is never the safest option.

 

[SeenSoFar]

First of all, I am by no means saying this is safe or a wise thing to do, however for the sake of harm reduction and the spread of information I figure I should provide this information.

A friend of mine is a 20 year IV morphine addict, who additionally is fixated on injecting things. He also happens to be a big fan of psychedelics and has demonstrated that he can handle them over and over again. A few months back, I provided him with 5mL of 10mg/mL 25C-NBOMe solution. I explained the nature of the chemical, the lack of information that is available, and the complete lack of any real safety profile. I told him to start with 1 'unit' of liquid (as indicated on a .5mL tuberculin syringe), add it to 1mL of water, and to dose 10 'units' as an allergy test, working up from there. I also told him to dose orally or nasally only. His first question when I was done with my lecture was "Can I smash (IV) it?" My response was naturally "While I'm sure its technically possible I would not recommend that at all! I told you there is no safety profile, no history, no nothing. It would be a bad idea if there ever was one. However, if you're hell-bent on doing so, start LOW and for god-sake have a sitter!"

So, I saw him again the following week and I was expecting what came from his mouth before it even opened: "I smashed it!" I face-palmed, but curiousity got the better of me. "How was it? Were there any side effects? Tell me everything."

Apparently, he tried it nasally up to a dose of 1mg and while he got a lot of body effects and mental changes, he did not get much in the way of visuals. I think this is just an idiosyncrasy of him, since he says that he requires much higher doses of psychedelics to 'get there' than others. He said that he decided to give it a go IV, despite what I had said. I think this has something to do with the fact that I provided it to him in liquid form, since he had never IV'ed any other research chemical I had given him in the past. Anyway, he reported it to be much more mild in terms of negative effects and unpleasant body load than it was orally or insufflated. He said it came on very quickly, and he was at a +++ with-in 30 seconds. He said the duration was consistently around 7 hours. He said his dose of choice was 500μg (5 'units') and that he tried up to 1.5mg, but claimed that anything above 500μg was too intense for him, with difficulty communicating and even out-of-body experiences and entity contact (he experienced a 'demon' telling him he was going to see the end of the world and be dragged through hell and back) at the peak. As a side-note, he claims that 25C has since become his all-time favourite psychedelic, and his second favourite substance of all time behind morphine.

Now, all of that being said, I don't recommend this to anyone else. Its just not smart to inject something like this when you have really no idea what is going to happen to you. Just because one person got away with it does not mean you or anyone else will have the same result.

 

[buffalobillygoat]

Yeah because I'm just gonna stick a needle in my arm without any idea how to do it.

Well, what did you do the first time you IV'd, exactly that. Why don't you stop being such a smart arse and listen to the advice people give you when you ASK FOR IT?

You are not a researcher, you're a young struggling addict with a needle fixation1.

Wish I'd said that

Yes its a new chemical with an unknown safety profile. You'd have to be an idiot not to realize that. Especially since they're branded 'research chemicals'. Unless of course you don't know the definition of those two words. But myself and the dozens of people I've done it with never had an issue with these compounds. Probably because we measure our dose, don't over do it, and never combine substances. Its called responsibility. And some people have it while others lack it. I've used these compounds up in the 2-4mg range without any issues or any signs vasoconstriction. Proving people react differently. I said I was going to start low, and in reality IVing is no different than other ROAs. If you're okay with people plugging these compounds you shouldn't be so arrogant about IV use.

Everybody who ever used a 'compound' never had an issue with it, until they did. Again, you ask for advice, and then you react upon anything that is at odds with what you've already decided. Don't worry matey, we've all been there, and that's probably even more maddening!

Also, its probably the most accurate way of measuring out your dose

If you have ampoules of the stuff from fucking BAYER or GSK, then yes. But last I checked, they didn't drop this turd. You're getting your shit from the net or the street, you are ALWAYS ingesting an unknown quantity - at least acknowledge this and drop the arrogance.

 

[bloodshed344]

@anon610, given the greater observed toxicity of full agonists versus our tried and true partial agonists, I must repeat the advice that you avoid exploring this route for these particular substances.



You are not a researcher, you're a young struggling addict with a needle fixation¹. In your current state you are emotionally compromised, and unable to make a sound decision about engaging in such blatantly self-destructive/high-risk behavior. Obviously I can't stop you from doing it, but I beg you to delay any experimentation with this until you've got your shit sorted out, and can see things more clearly.

Psychedelics have great capacity to heal as well as harm, and treating them with respect will take you a long way. Ask yourself why you want to do this, and what you really hope to gain, versus what could be gained, and what enjoyment had, from a less risk intensive route of administration. We're not calling you an idiot by recommending against this, it's just that we value the lives of our members, and risk of fatality is a rare thing as far as activities of PDers go. It's a frightening possibility, and one that is oh so easily avoided.



You're the only one here not thinking. How many things can go wrong from injected drugs versus other ROAs? I'm not even going to get into diseases or IV complications not related to the drug itself.

In New South Whales, a whopping 1% of heroin ODs occurred from non-IV routes of administration during the 4 year period of this study. Here we find 18 people who died from smoked/snorted heroin, out of 239 overdose deaths in a Swedish study (that is, ~7.5%). IV users were three times more likely to have suffered a nonfatal cocaine overdose in Sydney, and four times more likely to have witnessed an overdose occur.

To the inevitable illogical comment that it's safe if you do everything perfectly...you can say that about anything. Juggling flaming swords is safe so long as you do it perfectly, but people have died from getting plastic grocery bags tied around their heads, Q.E.D. juggling swords that are on fire must be safer than handling plastic grocery bags. The risk of particular activity, comes from the number, likelihood and severity of things that can go wrong, backed up by good old fashioned empirical evidence about how this plays out in real life. Injecting is never the safest option.

I'm not talking about miscalculated doses, recklessness, or other forms of abuse of drugs. I am talking about doing things in the proper way, which is how it should be applied to all methods of ROA. On a HR forum you should note that with the correct procedures the most accurate way to dose is going to be the most predictable for most compounds. Your argument sounds emotional to me.

Note that the cases you point out are all examples of drug abuse and also I did say that most drugs are safer this way, not all.

Well, what did you do the first time you IV'd, exactly that. Why don't you stop being such a smart arse and listen to the advice people give you when you ASK FOR IT?



Wish I'd said that



Everybody who ever used a 'compound' never had an issue with it, until they did. Again, you ask for advice, and then you react upon anything that is at odds with what you've already decided. Don't worry matey, we've all been there, and that's probably even more maddening!



If you have ampoules of the stuff from fucking BAYER or GSK, then yes. But last I checked, they didn't drop this turd. You're getting your shit from the net or the street, you are ALWAYS ingesting an unknown quantity - at least acknowledge this and drop the arrogance.

If you're not purifying your drugs and measuring them with an accurate scale you're abusing them. Which doesn't count, we're talking about trying to do this the safest way possible. and yeah, it's definitely possible to know how much you got... we have technology and shit.

 

[buffalobillygoat]

'technology' being a metered syringe?

I'm not talking about miscalculated doses, recklessness, or other forms of abuse of drugs. I am talking about doing things in the proper way, which is how it should be applied to all methods of ROA. On a HR forum you should note that with the correct procedures the most accurate way to dose is going to be the most predictable for most compounds. Your argument sounds emotional to me.

You're missing the point. We're in real life, things go wrong, a lot. Especially with drug addicts. You can't argue for safety of IV because so many assumptions have to made to do with drug purity, and in this case, the very nature of the active compound which is an unknown. Also the user's metabolism. Then allow for human error in dosing etc etc etc. Doing things in the proper way??? Physicians and chemists fuck dosing up and even drug selection regularly. I got prescribed the wrong antibiotic this week!
IV is a force multiplier for fucking up.

 

[Solipsis]

You are not a researcher, you're a young struggling addict with a needle fixation.

Indeed the concept of a needle fixation deserves due emphasis! To say that is not the reason begs for a matter of fact weighing of pro's and cons.

If you have ampoules of the stuff from fucking BAYER or GSK, then yes. But last I checked, they didn't drop this turd. You're getting your shit from the net or the street, you are ALWAYS ingesting an unknown quantity - at least acknowledge this and drop the arrogance.

If you really did mean quantity then in all fairness proper titration with every new batch can fix that. If you meant quality, then true it is unknown what impurities one might have, although these are very low doses of drugs that don't really have harmful intermediates or reagents in these quantities AFAIK.

I'm not talking about miscalculated doses, recklessness, or other forms of abuse of drugs. I am talking about doing things in the proper way, which is how it should be applied to all methods of ROA. On a HR forum you should note that with the correct procedures the most accurate way to dose is going to be the most predictable for most compounds. Your argument sounds emotional to me.

Injection is accurate and relatively consistent which admittedly is a considerable 'pro', but another considerable 'con' is that as captivated in this remark...

IV is a force multiplier for fucking up.

... IV injection does make for strong peak plasma levels, which if adverse effects are involved can very much be the difference between life and death.

In best case scenario: if fatalities were the result of incredible overdoses, pharmacogenetics or more likely a combination of the two, it is possible that allergy testing and careful titration are enough to prevent a toxic reaction (although I would argue that some people might be underestimating a propensity to get certain side-effects as a herald of sensitive pharmacogenetics, i.e. that things like worrisome vasoconstriction or thermostatic irregulaties may suggest that a higher but still relatively low dose could kill you).

But in a worst case scenario: if fatalities can or do involve relatively fortuitious factors like something you ate that day that inhibits the enzymes that would otherwise protect you (maybe some slightly retarded cytochrome polymorph or MAO-B, who knows)... injecting a little bit too much could make for fatal peak plasma levels.

I wrote something about tachyphylaxis (the acute tolerance that can make dosing these NBOMe drugs give inconsistent results) in another current ADD thread, albethey mostly investigative questions... the point is that getting some of that acute tolerance might attenuate the effects a bit which could potentially be protective. Circumventing that could expose you to additional risk.

It remains a question of whether a user keeps dosing higher and higher to overcome that (eventually the risks would meet up I suppose).

Sorry for the lack of faith but having a needle fixation doesn't really make you likely to stick to your "honorable" intentions even if you believe deeply in them now.
There are even hints that NBOMe drugs can become abused in the sense that people start chasing a sort of psychedelic rush from it. And even if that is not because it is imbedded in the nature or MoA of the drugs, it is well known that needle fixations like smoking or snorting fixations can lead to compulsive abuse whatever the drug (though the sort of drug is obviously also a huge factor).

Don't fixate on the possible pro's, ignoring the cons. Some of these cons make it much much more responsible to stay apprehensive until more is known about how the dangers of these drugs work. So I repeat what I said before: work through this debate honestly and don't do what another poster was accused of: making emotional decisions (if you can call compulsions, fixations or whatever you want to call it that makes a person hellbent on doing something like this).

For the sake of argument I invite you to check the same pro's and cons for I.M. use. Unfortunately I do not know if the rate of absorption can be considered consistent or if this depends on the injection site. If the advantage of consistency is kept, I.M. might be a better idea because it shouldn't cause as acutely and high of a peak plasma level as I.V.
Unfortunately the fixation and compulsion issues still apply.

Also let us not forget that injecting psychedelic phenethylamines is considered a no-no, because it can produce weird adverse reactions that are not well understood. Again this may not happen in everyone, we don't know whether this is due to different pharmacogenetics or something else... I know I have experienced nastiness from I.M.ing a reasonable dose of 2C-C.
Please adress this issue...

 

[Diloadid]

I don't think you're a idiot Anon. And for any negative responses, there is always benefit to any decision in life. It is just how you value it what you're benefitting. Since this is a HR forum, I would suggest that unless you can measure your dose with complete accuracy to not try this. I think the fact that the product you have is already on blotter is enough reason to not do this. Find a source for whichever NBOMe you are wanting to IV in its HCL form. From there it would probably be wise to have it further analyzed for impurities (GC/MS).

Sometimes it is the adventure in charting unknown territory that draws people in. Sometimes the adventurer doesn't make it back. Just be safe OP. While I don't think IVing NBOMe drugs to be particularly 'stupid', it does have a very dangerous dose-response curve. Baby steps friend, baby steps.

 

[amanitadine]

I found IM administration to be the most predictable and ideal form of administration. Why IV instead of IM? Have you ever Iv'd a vanilla 2C-X? Not so pleasant. IM gives you the reliability of dosage and absorption, with a few minutes of quick transition, rather than blast off. Granted, I've never IV'd the NBOMe's, because I see no reason to, and my experiences years ago doing the same with 2C's were unpleasant and not something I would want to repeat. Also, the apparent smaller safety margin would dictate common sense says "not a good idea". IM is quick enough. . 2-5 minutes. And that is a mighty fast come up.

 

[bloodshed344]

Indeed the concept of a needle fixation deserves due emphasis! To say that is not the reason begs for a matter of fact weighing of pro's and cons.



If you really did mean quantity then in all fairness proper titration with every new batch can fix that. If you meant quality, then true it is unknown what impurities one might have, although these are very low doses of drugs that don't really have harmful intermediates or reagents in these quantities AFAIK.



Injection is accurate and relatively consistent which admittedly is a considerable 'pro', but another considerable 'con' is that as captivated in this remark...



... IV injection does make for strong peak plasma levels, which if adverse effects are involved can very much be the difference between life and death.

In best case scenario: if fatalities were the result of incredible overdoses, pharmacogenetics or more likely a combination of the two, it is possible that allergy testing and careful titration are enough to prevent a toxic reaction (although I would argue that some people might be underestimating a propensity to get certain side-effects as a herald of sensitive pharmacogenetics, i.e. that things like worrisome vasoconstriction or thermostatic irregulaties may suggest that a higher but still relatively low dose could kill you).

But in a worst case scenario: if fatalities can or do involve relatively fortuitious factors like something you ate that day that inhibits the enzymes that would otherwise protect you (maybe some slightly retarded cytochrome polymorph or MAO-B, who knows)... injecting a little bit too much could make for fatal peak plasma levels.

I wrote something about tachyphylaxis (the acute tolerance that can make dosing these NBOMe drugs give inconsistent results) in another current ADD thread, albethey mostly investigative questions... the point is that getting some of that acute tolerance might attenuate the effects a bit which could potentially be protective. Circumventing that could expose you to additional risk.

It remains a question of whether a user keeps dosing higher and higher to overcome that (eventually the risks would meet up I suppose).

Sorry for the lack of faith but having a needle fixation doesn't really make you likely to stick to your "honorable" intentions even if you believe deeply in them now.
There are even hints that NBOMe drugs can become abused in the sense that people start chasing a sort of psychedelic rush from it. And even if that is not because it is imbedded in the nature or MoA of the drugs, it is well known that needle fixations like smoking or snorting fixations can lead to compulsive abuse whatever the drug (though the sort of drug is obviously also a huge factor).

Don't fixate on the possible pro's, ignoring the cons. Some of these cons make it much much more responsible to stay apprehensive until more is known about how the dangers of these drugs work. So I repeat what I said before: work through this debate honestly and don't do what another poster was accused of: making emotional decisions (if you can call compulsions, fixations or whatever you want to call it that makes a person hellbent on doing something like this).

For the sake of argument I invite you to check the same pro's and cons for I.M. use. Unfortunately I do not know if the rate of absorption can be considered consistent or if this depends on the injection site. If the advantage of consistency is kept, I.M. might be a better idea because it shouldn't cause as acutely and high of a peak plasma level as I.V.
Unfortunately the fixation and compulsion issues still apply.

Also let us not forget that injecting psychedelic phenethylamines is considered a no-no, because it can produce weird adverse reactions that are not well understood. Again this may not happen in everyone, we don't know whether this is due to different pharmacogenetics or something else... I know I have experienced nastiness from I.M.ing a reasonable dose of 2C-C.
Please adress this issue...

Yes I would say for psychedelic phenethylamines the IM route might be preferred. Note, I have no needle fixation. The only time I've had an IV was at the hospital. The issue of tachyphylaxis with NBOME is interesting. In my experience, once the 25C tolerance is achieved (such as after tripping 2 days in a row) no amount of 25C will be active. As in, it seemingly instantly turns from a scary strong-ass psychedelic to something weaker than any 2C with tolerance. It is strange. 25I didn't seem to cause this marked "permanent" tolerance. As to the rest of your concerns, I will address them later but I like the tone of your post. Thanks for considering my point.

 

[Azron]

Ive IVd 25i and 25g mainly for the reason I believe it to be the most accurate way to dose and possibly the safest. I get to do my own prep, my own maths and when done properly is very accuratly measured by a syringe. This way I get an exact dose and there is no waiting time potentially saving me from an uncssicarly re-dose. Ive bought blotters of 25b and 25c and there is so much 'unknown' factors of someone preparing my dose for me. Also must say doses were always titrated and with proper injection techniques I believe to be a safe and accurate roa although I don not recommend people do it.