EDIT: If you're not a "big reader," you may want to give this a cursory look-over then actually read the added conclusion at the end... it's in bold, can't miss it 
First, let me address some potential questions:
Why are you posting this?
1) I’ve searched BL (and other places)- all the threads on pentazocine, specifically those having to do with IV use, are archived and from 2007. In one thread the OP is shooting 6 25mg pills plus diphenhydramine (DPH; OTC brand name in the US Benadryl). Now, I don’t have access to a micron filter at the moment, yet I cringed when I read that he got all of this into 1ml and the filtering technique was a spoon and small amount of cotton. The OP reports that the solution was cloudy, yet he shot it anyway, some into a vein and some missed. The next day his whole arm hurt. I’m not posting this because I have a safe way to shoot pills- there’s the Micron Filtering FAQ for that. It’s simply that anything having to do with pent seems very old.
2) I believe this is a bit more pertinent reason for the post; I’ve looked a number of places and never found a definitive answer as to the question: “If one is on buprenorphine maintenance, will shooting pentazocine still work?”
I would like to say, in all sincerity, not just a disclaimer or “shooting pills is dumb,” but rather if you’re going to IV pills, at the minimum, I urge you to: read the Micron Filtering FAQ- if you don’t have access to a micron filter, at least do better than a spoon and q-tip or god forbid cigarette filter, plus the FAQ demonstrates good sanitation practices; read the It Could Happen to You thread so that you know the inherent dangers of shooting pills; and finally, know what the inactive ingredients are in the specific pill that you’re shooting- they’re far from “equal,” e.g. I personally would never shoot anything that’s designed as extended-release, what comes to mind as really bad is ER morphine.
With that said…
My understanding is that although pentazocine acts on different receptors than buprenorphine, it was the first attempt at a "non-addictive non-abusable" opioid 8) and is in fact schedule IV in the US. It was quite popular and much prescribed for a while, until abuse of it caught attention. From the Wikipedia article [granted, not a peer reviewed journal, but accessible and easy to understand]:
"In the 1970s, recreational drug users discovered that combining pentazocine with tripelennamine (a first-generation ethylenediamine antihistamine most commonly dispensed under the brand names Pelamine and Pyribenzamine and used both clinically and on the street to potentiate opioids and mitigate some of the side effects like itching, especially of codeine and morphine) produced a euphoric sensation much like that brought on by heroin though subjectively different. Users who were already addicted to the latter often used this combination when heroin was unavailable. Since tripelennamine tablets are typically blue in color and brand-name Pentazocine is known as Talwin (hence "T's"), the pentazocine/tripelennamine combination acquired the slang name Ts and blues"
[Note: Everyone it seems has a "heroin substitute," at least the article notes it was "subjectively different." I really didn't get how it could be even close; however, if you continue to read, you'll see my subjective experience during the first 20 minutes or so... heroin I would say NOT, nevertheless definitive rush/transient nausea/euphoria/some *similar* characteristics... granted I didn't use tripelennamine, but try sourcing that 8) ]
So this is something I've been interested in and known about a long time- however I just recently got a sample of legit blistered pent with NO naloxone (can shoot Suboxone b/c bupe so much stronger affinity for mu receptor than naloxone, but since pent not even active at mu- at least to my knowledge- could fuck you up in a very bad way).
I did my research several nights after getting the sample, yet found nothing about whether shooting pent with Sub in my system would work- that is, would the Sub block the pent like other opioids? I've looked for this before and never found an answer; however, one of the reasons I've been interested in it is that from a psycho pharm standpoint they should work together, *at least based on my limited understanding of psychopharmacology*.... and I was correct based on personal experience at least
I don't know this as a fact, but I also hypothesize that having the Sub in your system *potentially* makes the high better and quite likely makes it different.
My rationale is thus:
Sub has "partial agonist activity at the µ-opioid receptor, partial or full agonist activity at the ORL1/nociceptin receptor, and competitive antagonist activity at the kappa, and antagonist activity at the delta opioid receptors."
I understand this to mean-
1) mu receptor = euphoria, although super high binding affinity bupe is a partial agonist as opposed to full, e.g. dope, oxy, hydro, etc.
2) "partial or full agonist activity at the ORL1/nociceptin receptor"- "Nociceptin is thought to be an endogenous antagonist of dopamine transport that may act either directly on dopamine or by inhibiting GABA to affect dopamine levels"
3) "competitive antagonist activity at the kappa"- kappa causes both sedation and dyphoria, the opposite of euphoria- thus Sub acts as an antidepressant (and a damn good one IME!) but also causes less sedation than typical opioids- thus the speedy high that is unique in that has effects similar to a full mu agonist, but not all the time IME- that is, when I used to be able to get high off of it, prior to entering the Sub program, I would nod at times especially if relaxed and not active, but other times be like on speed except very relaxed, etc- not speed at all really, much more like 300mg of Wellbutrin to someone not scripted it. I used it in grad school- I have AD/HD, bupe mitigated the symptoms yet also gave me a sense of euphoria.
4) "antagonist activity at the delta opioid receptors"- thus lowers physical dependence and analgesia (Sub is safer as difficult to OD on it alone due to respiratory depression b/c of ceiling and all that fun stuff). Oddly, delta has antidepressant effects yet Sub is an antagonist there- yet it would seem not to a large extent, plus the kappa antagonist must outweigh it. Frankly, when I think of Sub I only think of two of these properties, that is partial mu agonist and kappa antagonist.
That’s my understanding of buprenorphine; please, I welcome comments if I’m wrong/not fully elucidated/etc.
Properties of Pentazocine:
Pent exists as "one of two enantiomers, named (+)-pentazocine and (-)-pentazocine. (-)-pentazocine is a kappa-opioid receptor agonist, while (+)-pentazocine is not, instead displaying a ten-fold greater affinity for the sigma receptor."
So no mu activity (?) which is very interesting- and I imagine a surprise to the medical community when people started using it as a heroin “substitute”!
The -pent is a kappa agonist, whereas Sub is a kappa antagonist- again, kappa = dysphoria, probably why developers thought ppl wouldn't be able to get high off of it. The reason I think taking it with Sub may make it better is this effect is potentially canceled out, leaving you with...
+pent, a sigma agonist with ten fold greater affinity (so even if not on Sub, kinda cancels/lessens the -pent enantiomer). Sigma is no longer regarded as an opioid receptor… it is truly interesting to me
One property which I can attest to is hallucinogenic effects- "Side effects are similar to those of morphine, but pentazocine may be more likely to cause hallucinations and other psychotomimetic effects."
This I found particularly interesting, "Behavioral reactions to sigma agonists are rather heterogeneous: some individuals find sigma receptor agonists euphoric with significant anti-depressive effects. Other individuals, however, experience dysphoria and often report feelings of malaise or anxiety."
I'm guessing the ppl who made it were hoping for the latter (or rather a middle ground perhaps), and from what I've read some ppl truly don't like it- but clearly others do get euphoria from it, otherwise the phenomena of "t's and blues" would never have occurred.
I hypothesized that I may or may not get euphoria with pent, but would be more likely to get hallucinogenic effects potentially- I wasn't expecting to trip based on dose, but thought that worse case scenario I would feel unhappy and delirious, in which case I would immediately take a nice amount of Sub rectally to counter act it.
Any comments on that? As in, if I had experienced dysphoria, would bupe have counteracted the pent?
Honestly, I didn't go into it with great expectations, #1 priority was shooting a clear solution as I read about pain at injection sites and much worse: "Severe injection site necrosis and sepsis has occurred (sometime requiring amputation of limb) with multiple injection of pentazocine lactate." It seems IM is better tolerated than SC, thus I felt better about IV but clearly you wouldn't want to miss. And per CH even among drugs that are prepared for SC or IM use, IV is usually better and safer, exceptions being those you don't have a choice with such as steroids.
I crushed and dissolved 5 25mg tabs (they're small thank god %) ) but nevertheless the solution before filtering was VERY cloudy, almost like milk. I filtered it twice using a 12 ml syringe with several jumbo cotton balls, the end solution was literally as clear as water- I was surprised too as I didn't seem to loose anything, tasted it before dissolving (was backloading into syringe, got a little on my hand) and it was very bitter, much like alprazolam or a concentrated solution from a CWE of 10/500 codeine/APA pills. I tasted the cotton balls when done, were bone dry and not at all bitter. They did however have a shit load of dry binder, which is of course good.
Solution was 3ml, have a box of 100 1ml 30G .5" insulin needles (although I prefer Luer Lock greatly these work well for other things). I wasn't about to do 3 shots, kinda defeats the purpose of a rush unless could do really, really fast and I take my time with sharp objects going into my veins![:\](https://bluelight.org/xf/BL_Images/Orig_Emoji/wrygrin.gif "wry grin :\")
Although I have several 3ml (and 10ml) Luer Lock syringes, didn't have any tips... except for three 25G 1.5" needles attached to Luer Lock syringes, so I used one of those. 30G if shooting frequently, although 27G used to be my gauge of choice (then again was doing 10ml shots of 150mg midazolam at the time
)- I think it was the first time I've used a 25G (possibly 2nd), certainly the largest I'll go but I'm comfortable with it, thing I don't like is 1.5" length- especially with visible vein, I only need at most .5".
Either way have been lifting weights as of late and using scar cream, my veins look fuckin great and the two large ones I thought I collapsed (had large knots there for months, at the injection site) have seemed to open up again, no knots at least. In fact, I use a tourniquet, but never actually make it truly tight unless I want to hit a deeper vein- rather, I take a 20 pound weight, do 15 reps with whatever arm I’m going to shoot into- enough to get my veins up yet not a "work out" so not shaky (don't want that with needle in hand then arm!) Reason I prefer this is don't want to collapse a vein by injecting with tourniquet on tight due to pressure- having to hit, register, loosen tourniquet and relax arm, then as vein goes down with needle still in, I often re-register just to be sure- that's a pain and easier to botch if inexperienced, I taught myself to IV for the sole purpose of wanting to IV midazolam (worth it!) and never tied off- I have very "veiny" arms anyway, so even just clenching repeatedly and contracting arm for a bit will do the trick.
EDIT: I HAD very veiny arms, yet even with proper technique, not IV'ing daily, and spacing out binges, those middy binges have taken a toll, now I need a tight tourniquet- this after lifting weight- and I've only got two places that don't have large deposits of scar tissue or simply no vein to be found- I'm writing this little edit here a mere THREE MONTHS after the above statement about how great my veins were
Anyway, had a perfect vein, perfect hit- so hit and registered, injected 1.5ml and felt a very, very slight pain- nothing like if you miss or hit then go through/slip out of vein- so I registered again, continued with injection, zero pain. Was worried about the whole pain at injection sites, etc. but not a mark (even though 25G) and zero pain %)
I could probably IV saline and get a very mild, placebo rush- just that small one I get when I register, anticipating what's coming next. Well as I said I went into this with very low expectations, main concern was what I was shooting and potential pain, etc.
Well, I got a definitive rush- honestly felt like dope in that I removed the needle and put a compress on, then had that transitory nausea, both in my gut and a few waves down my whole body. When that ended I laid on my bed for perhaps 10-15 minutes and enjoyed the euphoria, similar to a full mu agonist to my pleasant surprise
That ended and then the hallucinogenic qualities began- fortunately far from full blown out of body experience type trip; rather, poor perception of time (I looked at the clock and noted the time, time seemed to go REALLY slowly), for some reason I was hungry and went downstairs and ate some homemade potato salad- I temporarily "forgot" I'd even shot pent briefly, it was kinda like waking up in a black out (more like "brown out")- and wondered why I was hungry and why I was eating- I thought, "Did I take Remeron? Or perhaps Seroquel?" And quickly remembered I hate that shit, haven't taken in a long time...
Frankly, the "trippy" part was quite enjoyable- even though I HATE Benadryl (diphenhydramine or DPH, gives me "medicine head" and morning handover) had been reading ODD archive from 2007 about shooting it mixed with pent. I was enjoying the "trippy" aspect and was convinced (because I was high 8) ) that even though I'd taken eight 25mg Vistaril (hydroxyzine) p.o. 30 minutes before the shot (my typical potentiation dose) that Benadryl would boost it 8) So I took 50mg p.o. went upstairs and prepped a 1ml shot (I've never shot Benadryl before, have shot my Vistaril capsules in the past but decided simply not worth it, even though filtered I can't imagine adding the contents of even 3 capsules to a solution that I'm already trying to get an opioid in). Fortunately I had 2 bottles of Benadryl, one were tabs with a thick, dark pink coating, the other were small, clear capsules with a white powder- granted that doesn't mean they don't have filler and nasty shit in them, but it's a better alternative than the colored tabs
I only wanted 50mg in 1ml, but I ended up using four 25mg capsules as I intentionally (and unintentionally by spilling some as hand-eye coordination almost as bad as perception of time) "wasted" quite a bit by filtering the fuck out of it- I was high and don't like to shoot up when high, much less prep shots (which is why if going on a midazolam binge I make a batch of 3 to 4 150mg shots at once, because I'll do that in a day "chasing the middy dragon" ). So end solution about 50mg in 1cc, I went to shoot it in the same vein as before but a tad higher (closer to the heart) than decided to go higher- shouldn't have, I thought I was in a vein yet couldn't get the plunger up to register (I ONLY have this problem with insulin syringes, 1ml to be precise, when they're loaded to the 100unit line- but still plenty of room to register and hell when I went to clear the air accidently shot out 10 units so actually 0.9ml solution- that's why I truly prefer Luer Lock, never had this problem- I think it's because BD insulin syringe plunger is "less sturdy" and have to pull perfectly straight up to register). Anyway, thought I was in a vein but wasn't sure as couldn't register- so tried gently downward pressure on the plunger usually if not in a vein can feel the pain- although I read in the same ODD archive thread from jasonchrest that Benadryl hurts to shoot, even in a vein, worse if you miss, yet has analgesic properties that quickly take over. Well, yet another reason don't shoot up when high- I figured I'd proceed even though hadn’t registered, went slow, based on feeling albeit muted was in vein at one point then slipped out. As soon as I was done the skin at the injection site rose up, I was like oh shit I fucked up bad , I kept staring at it and in my state of mind looked worse than probably was- when I woke up next day arm looked perfect, so idk. No pain at all either.
To recap, I shot the pent at about 2:45am, laid in bed and felt euphoria similar to a full mu agonist, then went downstairs at 3am, opened the fridge and then the trippy effects were very noticeable, 50mg Benadryl p.o. and a lil' over 50mg IV. The experience was enjoyable- I said "trippy" for a reason, it was not antihistamine induced delirium nor the type of trip slash more like delirium I've experienced from DXM, neither of which I find pleasurable much less euphoric, plus both make me feel just kind of ill. After shooting the Benadryl I was ready for bed, it was 6am, I took 4mg alprazolam and 4mg lorazepam than nighty night.
The one (rather big) downside was that when I woke up, I had a horrible hangover which I blame on the Benadryl
- I've taken large amounts of Vistaril with zero side effects, the only reason I even keep Benadryl is b/c on occasion I've broken out into hives, one time it was anaphylactic shock- I had no EpiPen as first and only time (was back in high school so 10 years ago, no drugs/foods at the time, it was idiopathic)- fortunately as soon as the hives hit (always in stage 1 sleep, seem to be linked to stage 1 sleep panic attacks) I ran downstairs and took a handful of Benadryl, probably 10 maybe more. My mom called the paramedics, the hives were all over and tiny as pen pricks, was waiting on paramedics, breathing slowed and slowed, began to feel at peace yet thought I was dying, fortunately before I stopped breathing the pills kicked in and saved my life 
, over next 20 minutes pen sized hives slowly turned larger until the size of nickels.
Point is, the last time I took Benadryl prior to this experience was several months ago, came off my Suboxone to enjoy a 3 day "vacation" on a full agonist, DHC, must have "hit the ceiling" (theoretically there isn't one like with codeine, however the "ceiling" is when the histamine effects become too strong- for me I guess that's around 3,000mg)- I'd taken idk how much Vistaril, showered and used anti-itch cream all to no avail (and was on 12 hour Continus to boot )- so I took perhaps 6 Benadryl maybe more, the next morning my head felt awful, I felt hung-over and my face and eyes were seriously puffy and bloated.... wasn't that bad after the pent experience but still bad. Let me rephrase- I wasn't puffy after the pent experience, however my head hurt worse, I woke up at 6:30pm and lay there awake until I finally willed myself to get up.... at 4am :/
My only other hypothesis for how awful I felt is that perhaps the pent synergized with the bupe yet when I woke up 12 hours later (slept right through noon alarm) I had little to no Sub in me and/or my mu receptors were stripped, yet the pent lingered on in particular the agonist activity at kappa "defeating" the antagonist activity of Sub. I was taking 16mg Sub everyday for some time, don't get high but better than the first time I was on it and can function, granted the first time my schedule was more like 4mg one day (always insufflated), 8mg the next day, then 4mg, and every 10 days I took 36-48 hours off, so it was a roller coaster just like I was using. Although had been taking 16mg sublingually for a while, lately I take 8mg rectally and it seems to get the job done. I took my daily dose around 7pm, the pent shot was at 3am 8 hours later.
Anyone have any input as to the hangover? Anyone ever shot pent and felt this? Or simply in your opinion, would you guess Benadryl, the pent itself, the combination, or other variables entirely?
I think I'll get some more pent, however I WON'T be taking any Benadryl, feels dirty and gives me medicine head, better off with my q.i.d. [brand name ] Vistaril that I don't take daily but just for potentiation. I also remember reading about shooting pent mixed with MPH (Ritalin)- I enjoy IV methylphenidate on its own, I think it would go well with pent. Although the effects of pent may be different (or not, idk) if not on Sub, it's not really worth it to me to come off Sub just to shoot pent, I simply like the fact that, at least for me, it "works" with Sub, much as tramadol does; and just as neither Sub nor tram show up on a urine screen (of that I'm positive), I believe that pent too doesn't show up as an opioid, seeing as it has no mu activity. A definite positive when looking for work!
EDIT: I suggest above the combo of methylphenidate and pent... scroll down to a later post, I've found that pent is best used in smaller doses as one component of an IV combo
Anyone else how’s either shot pentazocine alone or shot it while on buprenorphine?
Any and all input is appreciated
Faust
Conclusion:
To be more concise: My experience was both euphoric and hallucinogenic at a higher dose range. Now, bupe has no action on sigma, and since the enantiomer that acts on sigma in pent has ten fold greater affinity than the enantiomer that acts on kappa, it’s the sigma action, not the kappa action, that is responsible for the euphoric effects of pent. As in the quote above, some people find sigma agonists to cause dysphoria; clearly I’m one of those who experiences euphoria
As for the hallucinogenic properties, these are likely a result of pent's kappa agonist activity. Pent is a "first try" at bupe in the sense that they attempted to make an opioid with built in deterents for abuse; the designers never thought the addition of naloxone to certain preparations (not the one I had!) would be necessary as the kappa agonism would cause dysphoria and a hallucinogenic state as dose increased.
The reason I hypothesized that being on bupe may make pent better is for the very reason that bupe’s antagonist action at kappa would negate pent’s agonist action there. After all, the whole conception behind developing pent as a “less-abusable/non-abusable” opioid was that it’s kappa agonist effects would deter abuse; however, if bupe negates this than it makes for a better combo than pent alone :D
However, further experimentation has led to a different conclusion. I've found that I don't really care for pent at the higher (125-150mg) doses, whereas I love 25-50mg mixed with either Ritalin, Dormicum, or all three %) At a lower dose, I still get the initial dope-like rush; however, I avoid both the "trippy" aspect as well as the hangover.
I hypothesize that I dislike pent at high doses due to its kappa agonist properties and that perhaps I may be even more sensitive to these effects due to the very fact that I'm on bupe maintenance. That is, prior to getting on maint., I enjoyed bupe recreationally, the partial mu agonist effects no doubt but in particular the kappa antagonist effects. I found it to be an excellent antidepressant prior to maint.; however, even on bupe maint. at a high dose for a long time, I still feel these effects to a noticeable extent whereas I feel zero partial mu agonist effects.
-Faust ^--^
First, let me address some potential questions:
Why are you posting this?
1) I’ve searched BL (and other places)- all the threads on pentazocine, specifically those having to do with IV use, are archived and from 2007. In one thread the OP is shooting 6 25mg pills plus diphenhydramine (DPH; OTC brand name in the US Benadryl). Now, I don’t have access to a micron filter at the moment, yet I cringed when I read that he got all of this into 1ml and the filtering technique was a spoon and small amount of cotton. The OP reports that the solution was cloudy, yet he shot it anyway, some into a vein and some missed. The next day his whole arm hurt. I’m not posting this because I have a safe way to shoot pills- there’s the Micron Filtering FAQ for that. It’s simply that anything having to do with pent seems very old.
2) I believe this is a bit more pertinent reason for the post; I’ve looked a number of places and never found a definitive answer as to the question: “If one is on buprenorphine maintenance, will shooting pentazocine still work?”
I would like to say, in all sincerity, not just a disclaimer or “shooting pills is dumb,” but rather if you’re going to IV pills, at the minimum, I urge you to: read the Micron Filtering FAQ- if you don’t have access to a micron filter, at least do better than a spoon and q-tip or god forbid cigarette filter, plus the FAQ demonstrates good sanitation practices; read the It Could Happen to You thread so that you know the inherent dangers of shooting pills; and finally, know what the inactive ingredients are in the specific pill that you’re shooting- they’re far from “equal,” e.g. I personally would never shoot anything that’s designed as extended-release, what comes to mind as really bad is ER morphine.
With that said…
My understanding is that although pentazocine acts on different receptors than buprenorphine, it was the first attempt at a "non-addictive non-abusable" opioid 8) and is in fact schedule IV in the US. It was quite popular and much prescribed for a while, until abuse of it caught attention. From the Wikipedia article [granted, not a peer reviewed journal, but accessible and easy to understand]:
"In the 1970s, recreational drug users discovered that combining pentazocine with tripelennamine (a first-generation ethylenediamine antihistamine most commonly dispensed under the brand names Pelamine and Pyribenzamine and used both clinically and on the street to potentiate opioids and mitigate some of the side effects like itching, especially of codeine and morphine) produced a euphoric sensation much like that brought on by heroin though subjectively different. Users who were already addicted to the latter often used this combination when heroin was unavailable. Since tripelennamine tablets are typically blue in color and brand-name Pentazocine is known as Talwin (hence "T's"), the pentazocine/tripelennamine combination acquired the slang name Ts and blues"
[Note: Everyone it seems has a "heroin substitute," at least the article notes it was "subjectively different." I really didn't get how it could be even close; however, if you continue to read, you'll see my subjective experience during the first 20 minutes or so... heroin I would say NOT, nevertheless definitive rush/transient nausea/euphoria/some *similar* characteristics... granted I didn't use tripelennamine, but try sourcing that 8) ]
So this is something I've been interested in and known about a long time- however I just recently got a sample of legit blistered pent with NO naloxone (can shoot Suboxone b/c bupe so much stronger affinity for mu receptor than naloxone, but since pent not even active at mu- at least to my knowledge- could fuck you up in a very bad way).
I did my research several nights after getting the sample, yet found nothing about whether shooting pent with Sub in my system would work- that is, would the Sub block the pent like other opioids? I've looked for this before and never found an answer; however, one of the reasons I've been interested in it is that from a psycho pharm standpoint they should work together, *at least based on my limited understanding of psychopharmacology*.... and I was correct based on personal experience at least
I don't know this as a fact, but I also hypothesize that having the Sub in your system *potentially* makes the high better and quite likely makes it different. My rationale is thus:
Sub has "partial agonist activity at the µ-opioid receptor, partial or full agonist activity at the ORL1/nociceptin receptor, and competitive antagonist activity at the kappa, and antagonist activity at the delta opioid receptors."
I understand this to mean-
1) mu receptor = euphoria, although super high binding affinity bupe is a partial agonist as opposed to full, e.g. dope, oxy, hydro, etc.
2) "partial or full agonist activity at the ORL1/nociceptin receptor"- "Nociceptin is thought to be an endogenous antagonist of dopamine transport that may act either directly on dopamine or by inhibiting GABA to affect dopamine levels"
3) "competitive antagonist activity at the kappa"- kappa causes both sedation and dyphoria, the opposite of euphoria- thus Sub acts as an antidepressant (and a damn good one IME!) but also causes less sedation than typical opioids- thus the speedy high that is unique in that has effects similar to a full mu agonist, but not all the time IME- that is, when I used to be able to get high off of it, prior to entering the Sub program, I would nod at times especially if relaxed and not active, but other times be like on speed except very relaxed, etc- not speed at all really, much more like 300mg of Wellbutrin to someone not scripted it. I used it in grad school- I have AD/HD, bupe mitigated the symptoms yet also gave me a sense of euphoria.
4) "antagonist activity at the delta opioid receptors"- thus lowers physical dependence and analgesia (Sub is safer as difficult to OD on it alone due to respiratory depression b/c of ceiling and all that fun stuff). Oddly, delta has antidepressant effects yet Sub is an antagonist there- yet it would seem not to a large extent, plus the kappa antagonist must outweigh it. Frankly, when I think of Sub I only think of two of these properties, that is partial mu agonist and kappa antagonist.
That’s my understanding of buprenorphine; please, I welcome comments if I’m wrong/not fully elucidated/etc.
Properties of Pentazocine:
Pent exists as "one of two enantiomers, named (+)-pentazocine and (-)-pentazocine. (-)-pentazocine is a kappa-opioid receptor agonist, while (+)-pentazocine is not, instead displaying a ten-fold greater affinity for the sigma receptor."
So no mu activity (?) which is very interesting- and I imagine a surprise to the medical community when people started using it as a heroin “substitute”!
The -pent is a kappa agonist, whereas Sub is a kappa antagonist- again, kappa = dysphoria, probably why developers thought ppl wouldn't be able to get high off of it. The reason I think taking it with Sub may make it better is this effect is potentially canceled out, leaving you with...
+pent, a sigma agonist with ten fold greater affinity (so even if not on Sub, kinda cancels/lessens the -pent enantiomer). Sigma is no longer regarded as an opioid receptor… it is truly interesting to me
One property which I can attest to is hallucinogenic effects- "Side effects are similar to those of morphine, but pentazocine may be more likely to cause hallucinations and other psychotomimetic effects."
This I found particularly interesting, "Behavioral reactions to sigma agonists are rather heterogeneous: some individuals find sigma receptor agonists euphoric with significant anti-depressive effects. Other individuals, however, experience dysphoria and often report feelings of malaise or anxiety."
I'm guessing the ppl who made it were hoping for the latter (or rather a middle ground perhaps), and from what I've read some ppl truly don't like it- but clearly others do get euphoria from it, otherwise the phenomena of "t's and blues" would never have occurred.
I hypothesized that I may or may not get euphoria with pent, but would be more likely to get hallucinogenic effects potentially- I wasn't expecting to trip based on dose, but thought that worse case scenario I would feel unhappy and delirious, in which case I would immediately take a nice amount of Sub rectally to counter act it.
Any comments on that? As in, if I had experienced dysphoria, would bupe have counteracted the pent?
Honestly, I didn't go into it with great expectations, #1 priority was shooting a clear solution as I read about pain at injection sites and much worse: "Severe injection site necrosis and sepsis has occurred (sometime requiring amputation of limb) with multiple injection of pentazocine lactate." It seems IM is better tolerated than SC, thus I felt better about IV but clearly you wouldn't want to miss. And per CH even among drugs that are prepared for SC or IM use, IV is usually better and safer, exceptions being those you don't have a choice with such as steroids.
I crushed and dissolved 5 25mg tabs (they're small thank god %) ) but nevertheless the solution before filtering was VERY cloudy, almost like milk. I filtered it twice using a 12 ml syringe with several jumbo cotton balls, the end solution was literally as clear as water- I was surprised too as I didn't seem to loose anything, tasted it before dissolving (was backloading into syringe, got a little on my hand) and it was very bitter, much like alprazolam or a concentrated solution from a CWE of 10/500 codeine/APA pills. I tasted the cotton balls when done, were bone dry and not at all bitter. They did however have a shit load of dry binder, which is of course good.
Solution was 3ml, have a box of 100 1ml 30G .5" insulin needles (although I prefer Luer Lock greatly these work well for other things). I wasn't about to do 3 shots, kinda defeats the purpose of a rush unless could do really, really fast and I take my time with sharp objects going into my veins
Although I have several 3ml (and 10ml) Luer Lock syringes, didn't have any tips... except for three 25G 1.5" needles attached to Luer Lock syringes, so I used one of those. 30G if shooting frequently, although 27G used to be my gauge of choice (then again was doing 10ml shots of 150mg midazolam at the time
)- I think it was the first time I've used a 25G (possibly 2nd), certainly the largest I'll go but I'm comfortable with it, thing I don't like is 1.5" length- especially with visible vein, I only need at most .5". Either way have been lifting weights as of late and using scar cream, my veins look fuckin great and the two large ones I thought I collapsed (had large knots there for months, at the injection site) have seemed to open up again, no knots at least. In fact, I use a tourniquet, but never actually make it truly tight unless I want to hit a deeper vein- rather, I take a 20 pound weight, do 15 reps with whatever arm I’m going to shoot into- enough to get my veins up yet not a "work out" so not shaky (don't want that with needle in hand then arm!) Reason I prefer this is don't want to collapse a vein by injecting with tourniquet on tight due to pressure- having to hit, register, loosen tourniquet and relax arm, then as vein goes down with needle still in, I often re-register just to be sure- that's a pain and easier to botch if inexperienced, I taught myself to IV for the sole purpose of wanting to IV midazolam (worth it!) and never tied off- I have very "veiny" arms anyway, so even just clenching repeatedly and contracting arm for a bit will do the trick.
EDIT: I HAD very veiny arms, yet even with proper technique, not IV'ing daily, and spacing out binges, those middy binges have taken a toll, now I need a tight tourniquet- this after lifting weight- and I've only got two places that don't have large deposits of scar tissue or simply no vein to be found- I'm writing this little edit here a mere THREE MONTHS after the above statement about how great my veins were
Anyway, had a perfect vein, perfect hit- so hit and registered, injected 1.5ml and felt a very, very slight pain- nothing like if you miss or hit then go through/slip out of vein- so I registered again, continued with injection, zero pain. Was worried about the whole pain at injection sites, etc. but not a mark (even though 25G) and zero pain %)
I could probably IV saline and get a very mild, placebo rush- just that small one I get when I register, anticipating what's coming next. Well as I said I went into this with very low expectations, main concern was what I was shooting and potential pain, etc.
Well, I got a definitive rush- honestly felt like dope in that I removed the needle and put a compress on, then had that transitory nausea, both in my gut and a few waves down my whole body. When that ended I laid on my bed for perhaps 10-15 minutes and enjoyed the euphoria, similar to a full mu agonist to my pleasant surprise
That ended and then the hallucinogenic qualities began- fortunately far from full blown out of body experience type trip; rather, poor perception of time (I looked at the clock and noted the time, time seemed to go REALLY slowly), for some reason I was hungry and went downstairs and ate some homemade potato salad- I temporarily "forgot" I'd even shot pent briefly, it was kinda like waking up in a black out (more like "brown out")- and wondered why I was hungry and why I was eating- I thought, "Did I take Remeron? Or perhaps Seroquel?" And quickly remembered I hate that shit, haven't taken in a long time...
Frankly, the "trippy" part was quite enjoyable- even though I HATE Benadryl (diphenhydramine or DPH, gives me "medicine head" and morning handover) had been reading ODD archive from 2007 about shooting it mixed with pent. I was enjoying the "trippy" aspect and was convinced (because I was high 8) ) that even though I'd taken eight 25mg Vistaril (hydroxyzine) p.o. 30 minutes before the shot (my typical potentiation dose) that Benadryl would boost it 8) So I took 50mg p.o. went upstairs and prepped a 1ml shot (I've never shot Benadryl before, have shot my Vistaril capsules in the past but decided simply not worth it, even though filtered I can't imagine adding the contents of even 3 capsules to a solution that I'm already trying to get an opioid in). Fortunately I had 2 bottles of Benadryl, one were tabs with a thick, dark pink coating, the other were small, clear capsules with a white powder- granted that doesn't mean they don't have filler and nasty shit in them, but it's a better alternative than the colored tabs
I only wanted 50mg in 1ml, but I ended up using four 25mg capsules as I intentionally (and unintentionally by spilling some as hand-eye coordination almost as bad as perception of time) "wasted" quite a bit by filtering the fuck out of it- I was high and don't like to shoot up when high, much less prep shots (which is why if going on a midazolam binge I make a batch of 3 to 4 150mg shots at once, because I'll do that in a day "chasing the middy dragon"
). So end solution about 50mg in 1cc, I went to shoot it in the same vein as before but a tad higher (closer to the heart) than decided to go higher- shouldn't have, I thought I was in a vein yet couldn't get the plunger up to register (I ONLY have this problem with insulin syringes, 1ml to be precise, when they're loaded to the 100unit line- but still plenty of room to register and hell when I went to clear the air accidently shot out 10 units so actually 0.9ml solution- that's why I truly prefer Luer Lock, never had this problem- I think it's because BD insulin syringe plunger is "less sturdy" and have to pull perfectly straight up to register). Anyway, thought I was in a vein but wasn't sure as couldn't register- so tried gently downward pressure on the plunger usually if not in a vein can feel the pain- although I read in the same ODD archive thread from jasonchrest that Benadryl hurts to shoot, even in a vein, worse if you miss, yet has analgesic properties that quickly take over. Well, yet another reason don't shoot up when high- I figured I'd proceed even though hadn’t registered, went slow, based on feeling albeit muted was in vein at one point then slipped out. As soon as I was done the skin at the injection site rose up, I was like oh shit I fucked up bad , I kept staring at it and in my state of mind looked worse than probably was- when I woke up next day arm looked perfect, so idk. No pain at all either.To recap, I shot the pent at about 2:45am, laid in bed and felt euphoria similar to a full mu agonist, then went downstairs at 3am, opened the fridge and then the trippy effects were very noticeable, 50mg Benadryl p.o. and a lil' over 50mg IV. The experience was enjoyable- I said "trippy" for a reason, it was not antihistamine induced delirium nor the type of trip slash more like delirium I've experienced from DXM, neither of which I find pleasurable much less euphoric, plus both make me feel just kind of ill. After shooting the Benadryl I was ready for bed, it was 6am, I took 4mg alprazolam and 4mg lorazepam than nighty night.
The one (rather big) downside was that when I woke up, I had a horrible hangover which I blame on the Benadryl
- I've taken large amounts of Vistaril with zero side effects, the only reason I even keep Benadryl is b/c on occasion I've broken out into hives, one time it was anaphylactic shock- I had no EpiPen as first and only time (was back in high school so 10 years ago, no drugs/foods at the time, it was idiopathic)- fortunately as soon as the hives hit (always in stage 1 sleep, seem to be linked to stage 1 sleep panic attacks) I ran downstairs and took a handful of Benadryl, probably 10 maybe more. My mom called the paramedics, the hives were all over and tiny as pen pricks, was waiting on paramedics, breathing slowed and slowed, began to feel at peace yet thought I was dying, fortunately before I stopped breathing the pills kicked in and saved my life , over next 20 minutes pen sized hives slowly turned larger until the size of nickels. Point is, the last time I took Benadryl prior to this experience was several months ago, came off my Suboxone to enjoy a 3 day "vacation" on a full agonist, DHC, must have "hit the ceiling" (theoretically there isn't one like with codeine, however the "ceiling" is when the histamine effects become too strong- for me I guess that's around 3,000mg)- I'd taken idk how much Vistaril, showered and used anti-itch cream all to no avail (and was on 12 hour Continus to boot
)- so I took perhaps 6 Benadryl maybe more, the next morning my head felt awful, I felt hung-over and my face and eyes were seriously puffy and bloated.... wasn't that bad after the pent experience but still bad. Let me rephrase- I wasn't puffy after the pent experience, however my head hurt worse, I woke up at 6:30pm and lay there awake until I finally willed myself to get up.... at 4am :/My only other hypothesis for how awful I felt is that perhaps the pent synergized with the bupe yet when I woke up 12 hours later (slept right through noon alarm) I had little to no Sub in me and/or my mu receptors were stripped, yet the pent lingered on in particular the agonist activity at kappa "defeating" the antagonist activity of Sub. I was taking 16mg Sub everyday for some time, don't get high but better than the first time I was on it and can function, granted the first time my schedule was more like 4mg one day (always insufflated), 8mg the next day, then 4mg, and every 10 days I took 36-48 hours off, so it was a roller coaster just like I was using. Although had been taking 16mg sublingually for a while, lately I take 8mg rectally and it seems to get the job done. I took my daily dose around 7pm, the pent shot was at 3am 8 hours later.
Anyone have any input as to the hangover? Anyone ever shot pent and felt this? Or simply in your opinion, would you guess Benadryl, the pent itself, the combination, or other variables entirely?
I think I'll get some more pent, however I WON'T be taking any Benadryl, feels dirty and gives me medicine head, better off with my q.i.d. [brand name
] Vistaril that I don't take daily but just for potentiation. I also remember reading about shooting pent mixed with MPH (Ritalin)- I enjoy IV methylphenidate on its own, I think it would go well with pent. Although the effects of pent may be different (or not, idk) if not on Sub, it's not really worth it to me to come off Sub just to shoot pent, I simply like the fact that, at least for me, it "works" with Sub, much as tramadol does; and just as neither Sub nor tram show up on a urine screen (of that I'm positive), I believe that pent too doesn't show up as an opioid, seeing as it has no mu activity. A definite positive when looking for work!EDIT: I suggest above the combo of methylphenidate and pent... scroll down to a later post, I've found that pent is best used in smaller doses as one component of an IV combo
Anyone else how’s either shot pentazocine alone or shot it while on buprenorphine?
Any and all input is appreciated
Faust
Conclusion:
To be more concise: My experience was both euphoric and hallucinogenic at a higher dose range. Now, bupe has no action on sigma, and since the enantiomer that acts on sigma in pent has ten fold greater affinity than the enantiomer that acts on kappa, it’s the sigma action, not the kappa action, that is responsible for the euphoric effects of pent. As in the quote above, some people find sigma agonists to cause dysphoria; clearly I’m one of those who experiences euphoria
As for the hallucinogenic properties, these are likely a result of pent's kappa agonist activity. Pent is a "first try" at bupe in the sense that they attempted to make an opioid with built in deterents for abuse; the designers never thought the addition of naloxone to certain preparations (not the one I had!) would be necessary as the kappa agonism would cause dysphoria and a hallucinogenic state as dose increased.
The reason I hypothesized that being on bupe may make pent better is for the very reason that bupe’s antagonist action at kappa would negate pent’s agonist action there. After all, the whole conception behind developing pent as a “less-abusable/non-abusable” opioid was that it’s kappa agonist effects would deter abuse; however, if bupe negates this than it makes for a better combo than pent alone :D
However, further experimentation has led to a different conclusion. I've found that I don't really care for pent at the higher (125-150mg) doses, whereas I love 25-50mg mixed with either Ritalin, Dormicum, or all three %) At a lower dose, I still get the initial dope-like rush; however, I avoid both the "trippy" aspect as well as the hangover.
I hypothesize that I dislike pent at high doses due to its kappa agonist properties and that perhaps I may be even more sensitive to these effects due to the very fact that I'm on bupe maintenance. That is, prior to getting on maint., I enjoyed bupe recreationally, the partial mu agonist effects no doubt but in particular the kappa antagonist effects. I found it to be an excellent antidepressant prior to maint.; however, even on bupe maint. at a high dose for a long time, I still feel these effects to a noticeable extent whereas I feel zero partial mu agonist effects.
-Faust ^--^
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