Israel is under attack

[swilow]

"Both sides are the same" please lol

Not what I said. Tbc, extreme right and extreme left share similar preoccupations with pointless shit like race and identity. They approach these issues from different directions, but both would have our societies mired in pointless race politics, the extreme right out of some deluded sense that race is a thing to be proud of, the left because race is either something to be ashamed of if you're white or something to accrue benefit from if you're black/brown/POC. Both sides are equally ridiculous.

Extreme views are usually appealing either to the young and emotional, or to the old and stupid.

 

[Denisovan]

Not what I said. Tbc, extreme right and extreme left share similar preoccupations with pointless shit like race and identity. They approach these issues from different directions, but both would have our societies mired in pointless race politics, the extreme right out of some deluded sense that race is a thing to be proud of, the left because race is either something to be ashamed of if you're white or something to accrue benefit from if you're black/brown/POC. Both sides are equally ridiculous.

Extreme views are usually appealing either to the young and emotional, or to the old and stupid.

generalizations generalizations...

 

[Electrum1]

with pointless shit like race and identity

Those are absolutely things that matter

 

[arrall]

Realize that the IDF is primarily composed of 18-22 year olds who are reservists

Not reservists.
The IDF has mandatory service. 32-36 months for men and 24-36 months for women.
Some women I met were serving as volunteer civilian paramedics instead.

There is a lot of misinformation here, and I'm getting really sick of people here lecturing me about how virtuous the IDF probably is as if I wasn't logging on here from Israel for 2 months in 2022.
I'm Jewish and the great-grandchild of Holocaust survivors, and I've probably spent 2 months longer in Israel than anyone else posting in this thread.
A Jewish friend of mine has shown me videos of him being fired at by IDF soldiers in the distance while visiting a Palestinian village. There was no violence anywhere, no provocation, and everyone but the IDF soldiers was unarmed.

It's really easy to have misconceptions about Israel while sitting in a living room in America watching Israeli propaganda on TV.
If any of you went there, you would probably have a very different view of things.

 

[arrall]

The guy who set himself on fire undoubtedly wanted to emulate the self-immolation of the Buddhist monk during the war in Vietnam; except that man was a Vietnamese man doing so to protest a war in HIS nation. A man of peace who didn’t shout anything, just sat there and burned to death as a true protest of the conflict in his own nation between his own people (Vietnam being a civil war technically).

Hard not to see this 25 year old American as a very very sad product of the “reeeing” 20s…

Given the US government's massive financial backing of Israel despite the numerous crimes Israeli government actors have committed against the US government and the numerous American civilians they have murdered over the past 60 years, this is an issue in "HIS nation".

The Israeli government:

• Attacked a US Navy spy ship in 1967, killing 34 American crew members and wounding 171.
• Attempted to assassinate a US diplomat in August 1980.
• Has allowed JDL members responsible for murdering at least 2 US citizens and injuring others to evade prosecution and extradition. They assassinated an activist in 1985 before he was scheduled to speak at a synagogue, killed a secretary in a mail bombing, and injured 2 police officers in another bombing earlier that year.
• Is strongly suspected to have stolen hundreds of pounds of uranium from America, primarily in 1965. The company involved was run by a staunch Zionist and had 761 lbs of uranium go missing, with 593/761 being lost before 1968. NUMEC had the largest highly enriched uranium inventory loss of all US commercial sites in history.
• Attempted to stage a false flag attack by having Egyptian Jews plant bombs inside American educational centers, cinemas, and libraries located in Egypt in 1954.
• Had Benjamin Netanyahu waiting at the airport to greet and celebrate the arrival of a man who stole American state secrets that included the names of thousands of American civilians who had cooperated with US intelligence agencies, and the NSA's 10-volume manual on the US's signal intelligence gathering.
• Protected Chaim Herzog, who fled to Israel in 1954 after being tipped off that the FBI was investigating him for using his position as an attaché at the Israeli embassy to recruit spies for the Israeli government. He was later elected as Prime Minister. Twice.

If any other country in the Middle East did this, boots would be on the ground and America would be going to war against them. Edward Snowden is living in Russia for the rest of his life for publishing state secrets, and Snowden wasn't actively working for a foreign country. Pollard was.

Instead, Israel received $158.67 billion USD (not adjusted for inflation) from 1946 - January 2023, and has since been given another $14 billion USD. Adjusted for inflation, that is $312 billion USD in 78 years.

Not only has Israel killed countless of your country's civilians outside of Israeli or Palestinian soil, not only has it stolen uranium and state secrets, but it has been paid $312 billion for its efforts. Your media has then convinced you that Israel is America's friend and greatest ally. Israel has assassinated your civilians and protected those who have, nearly destroyed an American ship with hundreds of people on it, stolen state secrets, stolen uranium, and attempted to stage a false flag attack against US-government-run civilian buildings. They still celebrate and protect the people involved to this day.

America is certainly Israel's friend, but Israel is no friend of America.

 

[arrall]

I'm going to make another post tomorrow, and then I'm back to avoiding this section.
The genocide has been taking a huge toll on me as an anti-Zionist Jew, but spending too much time in CEP has never done me any favours.

 

[mal3volent]

There is a lot of misinformation here, and I'm getting really sick of people here lecturing me about how virtuous the IDF probably is as if I wasn't logging on here from Israel for 2 months in 2022.

pretty sure @Rachrach lives there or has family that does? There was also a guy in the discord - J - who lives there. He was pro Israel but was banned from the server correct?

I think you should rely on sound arguments rather than claiming some special authority because you were in Israel for a couple months.

Also you're Jewish. Jesse Lee Peterson is black. Blaire White is trans. Pearl Davis is a female.
Not comparing you to them of course, just illustrating how being a member of a group doesn't necessarily mean you should give any special authority to their views.

No one here has lectured anyone about the IDF being virtuous btw. They have bad eggs just like every other military on earth. They've been placed in an impossible situation. Hamas admitted they'd do more attacks over and over until Israel was destroyed. They have to protect their people. Knowing that Hamas will look to maximize civilian deaths to win over public sentiment. Hard to engage with an enemy who is on record stating: "We love death more than life".

 

[swilow]

Those are absolutely things that matter

Not as much as the extreme right and left think. Honestly, when it comes to immutable characteristics, there really isn't much to be gained by either pride or loathing. Race just is. It doesn't tell you much about a person.

Personally, I'm more interested in what people claim to believe and what they value than their skin colour or whatever made up identity they've adopted.

 

[-=SS=-]

I'm going to make another post tomorrow, and then I'm back to avoiding this section.

Dude come back in another 200 pages, I'm sure we'll have reached a consensus and figured out a solution by then lol.

Seriously though, if you feel emotionally connected with all of this then I would just stay away to be honest. Not that your input isn't valid or needed for balance - I do personally find it interesting to hear more detailed information from either side - but no one is ever going to come to an agreement in here, and you would just be torturing yourself when that energy would be better spent on those you care about.

 

[Mjäll]

He is all over the place, as he always is. In this interview he equivocates between HAMAS & the Israeli Government. That alone deserves tossing this interview into the rubbish bin.

I need to add, why do people care what he thinks? You can cherrypick pieces to support any position. He seems to be playing with people, jumping all over the map. His aubjective political orientation is a fine example, a Communist who honestly believes Communism to be impossible in real world application. I agree with him that Communism is untenable but then ask,how can one identify with a political system that is inapplicable.

Slavoj Zizek is a poser who is respected by intellectual hipsters for having a weird accent and convoluted positions :D

 

[Cream Gravy?]

The IDF has mandatory service. 32-36 months for men and 24-36 months for women. Some women I met were serving as volunteer civilian paramedics instead.

That's hardly an active duty fighting force. One year alone would be training. I would classify that as a reservist force. But you can call it whatever you like. The point is that the IDF is primarily composed of personnel who do not plan to make it a career, who are young and inexperienced.

I've talked to Israelis during past conflicts with Hamas. They seem to feel that their cause is just. Very passionately so. I don't doubt them.

Given the US government's massive financial backing of Israel despite the numerous crimes Israeli government actors have committed against the US government and the numerous American civilians they have murdered over the past 60 years, this is an issue in "HIS nation".

So do you believe the airman who set himself on fire was protesting that? I doubt it. He wasted his life because consensus society fed him lies about Gazans.

Or should we all hate the Israelis? The Third Reich had it right the whole time? They're really and truly infiltrating us and convincing us to act against our own best interests? Is it a global Zionist conspiracy again? Oh boy, so they 'got away' with so many crimes because in reality they're pulling all the strings from Israel?

No one is lecturing you on the high and mightiness of Israel's defense force. You decided to enter this discussion.

The genocide has been taking a huge toll on me as an anti-Zionist Jew

I'm certain that it has. Take care of yourself.

 

[Rachrach]

Its free speech

So is screaming "Fire" in a dark, packed theatre. THAT is illegal in the US, showing that Free Speech is not a carte blanche to do & say whatever. The poor man was clearly addled. How daft must one be to use their camos whilst serving in the USAF to rail against Genocide before igniting himself as a walking funeral pyre.To think that he died for nothing is tragic but his soul might rest assured that there will be a dozen schools named for him in Ramallah before the week is over.

How much more powerful would he be had he stood in his camos, introduced himself, and tried to argue his piece. Instead? Let us just say that his legacy will be far different than that of the South Vietnamese Buddhist monk.

 

[Rachrach]

pretty sure @Rachrach lives there or has family that does? There was also a guy in the discord - J - who lives there. He was pro Israel but was banned from the server correct?

I think you should rely on sound arguments rather than claiming some special authority because you were in Israel for a couple months.

Also you're Jewish. Jesse Lee Peterson is black. Blaire White is trans. Pearl Davis is a female.
Not comparing you to them of course, just illustrating how being a member of a group doesn't necessarily mean you should give any special authority to their views.

No one here has lectured anyone about the IDF being virtuous btw. They have bad eggs just like every other military on earth. They've been placed in an impossible situation. Hamas admitted they'd do more attacks over and over until Israel was destroyed. They have to protect their people. Knowing that Hamas will look to maximize civilian deaths to win over public sentiment. Hard to engage with an enemy who is on record stating: "We love death more than life".

Yep, born & bred and a Sr IDF Officer to boot bwaaaahaha, though prior to October

pretty sure @Rachrach lives there or has family that does? There was also a guy in the discord - J - who lives there. He was pro Israel but was banned from the server correct?

I think you should rely on sound arguments rather than claiming some special authority because you were in Israel for a couple months.

Also you're Jewish. Jesse Lee Peterson is black. Blaire White is trans. Pearl Davis is a female.
Not comparing you to them of course, just illustrating how being a member of a group doesn't necessarily mean you should give any special authority to their views.

No one here has lectured anyone about the IDF being virtuous btw. They have bad eggs just like every other military on earth. They've been placed in an impossible situation. Hamas admitted they'd do more attacks over and over until Israel was destroyed. They have to protect their people. Knowing that Hamas will look to maximize civilian deaths to win over public sentiment. Hard to engage with an enemy who is on record stating: "We love death more than life".

I am. I was born in Jerusalem in 1967. In 1979 I entered Command Boarding School & in 2/1983 entered Active Service as a Jr Officer. I retired from the IDF in 2013 & began my decade at the Ministry of Defence though I bowed out several months early at which time- 2022- began Contracting: S. Philippines, Afghanistan, lastly Ukraine before the present war. At that time I was Recalled (to Active), which is where I stand now.

None of this should make my word more authoritative than that of anyone else. Only that I choose to comment on a precious few subjects, all things I have done my homework on. When I do comment on them, I do so factually. I do not mind anyone disagreeing but I do hope that when anyone disagrees, that they do so factually.

The IDF is a citizen's military & being as such it means that we have all stripes of Israeli society serving at one time or another. A person claiming that the IDF does no wrong is as pathetic a person as they who cannot admit that the IDF is not inherently evil.

For HAMAS fanboys...Twice during the 2014 War HAMAS proudly & publicly admitted to using Gazans as Human Shields. This phrase has several contexts depending upon who is accusing an emtity of using Human Shields, so let me make this easy: Sami al Barhoum in that 2014 War (Operation Protective Edge) stated that when the IDF warns of an impending attack against a specifically targetted structure, HAMAS immediately does two things.

First, HAMAS forbids any civilain within a structure from leaving. Secondly, HAMAS then deploys women & children to sit atop the targetted structure. The latter is done so as to try & strongarm the Israeli Military to desist from attacking that target. The former occurs so that in the remote chance that civilains mobbing up the roof (etc.) of the structure was not done promptly enough to stop that impending Israeli attack, the civilains inside of the structure will provide plenty of visceral images with which to sell the Palestinian narrative even more.

When October 7th occurred HAMAS et al made no secret about the unpreventable repercussions that these Palestinian on Jewish atrocities would cause bring the main reason why the October 7th Attack transpired.

Lastly, simply read the HAMAS Unabridged Charter. The group has no qualms with openly admitting that their endgame is the extermination of Jews whereever they might reside, thereby it has nothing to do with protecting Palestinians from anything. Theirs is an openly racist programme to rid this worlds of Jews. They blame Jews- literally- for all drug addiction including alcoholism, every modern war everywhere, so on & so forth.

 

[Rachrach]

That's hardly an active duty fighting force. One year alone would be training. I would classify that as a reservist force. But you can call it whatever you like. The point is that the IDF is primarily composed of personnel who do not plan to make it a career, who are young and inexperienced.

I've talked to Israelis during past conflicts with Hamas. They seem to feel that their cause is just. Very passionately so. I don't doubt them.


So do you believe the airman who set himself on fire was protesting that? I doubt it. He wasted his life because consensus society fed him lies about Gazans.

Or should we all hate the Israelis? The Third Reich had it right the whole time? They're really and truly infiltrating us and convincing us to act against our own best interests? Is it a global Zionist conspiracy again? Oh boy, so they 'got away' with so many crimes because in reality they're pulling all the strings from Israel?

No one is lecturing you on the high and mightiness of Israel's defense force. You decided to enter this discussion.


I'm certain that it has. Take care of yourself.

Most are unaware but Israel offers an entirely non military alternative, "Sherut Le'umi," literally, "National Service." Living at home if they opt to do so, & serving a mere 12 months including training, individuals exercising this option get to choose from literally thousands of NGOs and charities.

If they want to empower Israel's Arab citizenry, they may choose to tutour Arab highschoolers so that they can fully matriculate. If successful, said Arab teens can immediately continue their education with a university course of study.

They can help pave roads, volunteer at a gay youth drop in centre. They can choose to educate Palestinians on their right to direct access- free of charge- to Israel's High Court. The High Court is Israel's top juridicial forum.

 

[Rachrach]

Slavoj Zizek is a poser who is respected by intellectual hipsters for having a weird accent and convoluted positions :D

Bwaaaaaha!!! Well said, kudos.

 

[Rachrach]

I'm going to make another post tomorrow, and then I'm back to avoiding this section.
The genocide has been taking a huge toll on me as an anti-Zionist Jew, but spending too much time in CEP has never done me any favours.

An "Anti Zionist Jew" is such a bizarre self description. To dumb it down, Zionism is simply the Jewish right to self determination & its realisation in the form of Israel. Ooooooh, so horrible, yes?

 

[deficiT]

First, HAMAS forbids any civilain within a structure from leaving. Secondly, HAMAS then deploys women & children to sit atop the targetted structure. The latter is done so as to try & strongarm the Israeli Military to desist from attacking that target. The former occurs so that in the remote chance that civilains mobbing up the roof (etc.) of the structure was not done promptly enough to stop that impending Israeli attack, the civilains inside of the structure will provide plenty of visceral images with which to sell the Palestinian narrative even more.

Ok so how does this let the IDF off the hook for knowingly bombing women and children?

These are all war crimes.

 

[deficiT]

Bad guys = using human shields

Good guys = still blows the fuck out of civilians anyway

:That logic just doesn't make sense to me, no matter how you wanna swing it

 

[mal3volent]

Bad guys = using human shields

Good guys = still blows the fuck out of civilians anyway

:That logic just doesn't make sense to me, no matter how you wanna swing it

so you don't understand the moral difference between terrorists purposely seeking out women and children to rape and murder vs. a military responding to that attack and unintentionally killing women and children after they spent weeks evacuating as many as they could?

under your definition of war crime any action taken by any military for any reason that results in the death of a woman or child is a war crime ?

 

[Rachrach]

Given the US government's massive financial backing of Israel despite the numerous crimes Israeli government actors have committed against the US government and the numerous American civilians they have murdered over the past 60 years, this is an issue in "HIS nation".

The Israeli government:

• Attacked a US Navy spy ship in 1967, killing 34 American crew members and wounding 171.
• Attempted to assassinate a US diplomat in August 1980.
• Has allowed JDL members responsible for murdering at least 2 US citizens and injuring others to evade prosecution and extradition. They assassinated an activist in 1985 before he was scheduled to speak at a synagogue, killed a secretary in a mail bombing, and injured 2 police officers in another bombing earlier that year.
• Is strongly suspected to have stolen hundreds of pounds of uranium from America, primarily in 1965. The company involved was run by a staunch Zionist and had 761 lbs of uranium go missing, with 593/761 being lost before 1968. NUMEC had the largest highly enriched uranium inventory loss of all US commercial sites in history.
• Attempted to stage a false flag attack by having Egyptian Jews plant bombs inside American educational centers, cinemas, and libraries located in Egypt in 1954.
• Had Benjamin Netanyahu waiting at the airport to greet and celebrate the arrival of a man who stole American state secrets that included the names of thousands of American civilians who had cooperated with US intelligence agencies, and the NSA's 10-volume manual on the US's signal intelligence gathering.
• Protected Chaim Herzog, who fled to Israel in 1954 after being tipped off that the FBI was investigating him for using his position as an attaché at the Israeli embassy to recruit spies for the Israeli government. He was later elected as Prime Minister. Twice.

If any other country in the Middle East did this, boots would be on the ground and America would be going to war against them. Edward Snowden is living in Russia for the rest of his life for publishing state secrets, and Snowden wasn't actively working for a foreign country. Pollard was.

Instead, Israel received $158.67 billion USD (not adjusted for inflation) from 1946 - January 2023, and has since been given another $14 billion USD. Adjusted for inflation, that is $312 billion USD in 78 years.

Not only has Israel killed countless of your country's civilians outside of Israeli or Palestinian soil, not only has it stolen uranium and state secrets, but it has been paid $312 billion for its efforts. Your media has then convinced you that Israel is America's friend and greatest ally. Israel has assassinated your civilians and protected those who have, nearly destroyed an American ship with hundreds of people on it, stolen state secrets, stolen uranium, and attempted to stage a false flag attack against US-government-run civilian buildings. They still celebrate and protect the people involved to this day.

America is certainly Israel's friend, but Israel is no friend of America.

First, add every US penny given to Israel since 1948 & the sum equals less than 43% of a single Israeli GDP. Obviously US money does not make or break Israel. There are almost 140 nations that receive US largesse. Add more than 80 non state actors also receiving at any given time. Of roughly 220 recipients, Israel alone gives money back to the US? Guessed that yet? Of course it is Israel & it does so with a ratio of 80:1. The latter number equals each US dollar given to Israel & the "80" is what Israel gives back.

Israel only entered existence in 1948. How then can you claim that Israel began receiving US money in 1946?

As for "Israeli crimes," do not regurgitate mumbo jumbo propaganda pulled from the ether. Just as I offer you & everyone else a factual response, please do not subject me to rubbish. It is fine if you hate Israel. However, if you will express that in your posts it would be wise of you to vet anything you post.

You then accuse Israel of commiting crines against US citizens. Sorry, but you are going to need to use your due dilligence.

Your having correctly noted that the USS Liberty was in fact a "spy ship" does not seem to have gained traction in your outlook. A foreign Signal Trawler that hugged the coast of a nation emboilef in a multi-front war is never a particulay intelligent thing to begin with.

Worse yet, the Liberty deliberately disobeyed a direct order from the 6th Fleet., These 2 things weighed heavily upon the minds of investigators who participated in the 3 official (& non Naval) investigations, all of ehich absolved Isrsael on every level.

Your accusation that in 1980 Israel attempted to assasinate a US Diplomat is nothing but a fantasy. That never transpired.

Likewise your accusation about Israel allowing members of the Jewish Defence League to avoid lrosecution and/or extradition.

Sbidely referring to Isrsel as "HIS nation" is non sensical. First, Israel is NOT a theocracy. It is instead a Liberal Democracy whose citizens enjoy adsolute Freedom of Worship.

(Israel) "is strongly suspected of having stolen hundreds of uranium" is amazingly non sensical. Why would Israel risk everything on a resource that was made readily available to Israel by its (much closer) ally (at the time) South Africa??? How could Israel have met JFK's strict guidelines with regard to all nuclear precursors? It is such a silly accusation based upon a Jew Baiting Security echelon in early-1960s America.

You are absolutely correct with regard to what you labeled a "False Flag Attack" in Egypt. It known as the "Lavon Affair." Ergo you are proof that a million chimpanzees mindlessly banging on a keyboard will eventually produce Shakesperaean gems.

Will continue soon...