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Israel is under attack

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swilow said:
Genocidal Islamic barbarians who rape/burn/torture people and hide behind pregnant women and premature babies in hospitals don't lie. Gotcha.
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Ah yes all of those rapist doctors and health care workers 🤔

Great claim to make while ignoring the fact that numerous international human rights orgs have independently verified numbers in the past
 
someguyontheinternet said:
I guess Israel blatantly lying just doesn't matte to you, interesting. And it doesn't matter if that's Hamas' name for it? Why on earth would it?

Anywho, the Gazan health ministry has been shown to not lie 🤔

abcnews.go.com

EXPLAINER: What is Gaza's Ministry of Health and how does it calculate the war's death toll?

As the Israel-Hamas war rages, international and local monitoring groups in Gaza have been unable to keep up
abcnews.go.com abcnews.go.com

www.vox.com

The death toll from Gaza, explained

Real-time fatality counts from conflict zones like Gaza are almost never right. Pay attention to them anyway.
www.vox.com www.vox.com
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thehill.com

Death toll in Gaza likely ‘higher than is being reported’: US official

A senior Biden administration official said the death toll of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip is likely far higher than the 10,000 number being reported by the health ministry amid Israel’s war agai…
thehill.com thehill.com

U.S. source from Biden's camp says toll is likely higher than Palestinian Health Ministry is even stating.

A senior Biden administration official said the death toll of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip is likely far higher than the 10,000 number being reported by the health ministry amid Israel’s war against Hamas.

Barbara Leaf, assistant secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs, told a House panel those killed more than one month into the war are likely “higher than is being cited.”
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Not coming from some anti-israel nutjob either - she clearly and definitively states that Hamas is in the wrong.
“One can not deliberately target civilians or civilian objects, one cannot use civilians as human shields, attacks cannot be indiscriminate, one cannot rape, torture or mutilate, one cannot take hostages and attacks cannot cause excessive loss of civilian life or damage to civilian objects in relation to their military advantage are prohibited,” Stroul said.

“Hamas — there is documented evidence, there are plenty of images out there, some of it Hamas has put out itself to praise its use of terror tunnels, its obfuscation of weapons and rockets inside civilian structures including hospitals, mosques and schools,” she added.

When asked by Foreign Affairs Chair Rep. Michael McCaul (R-Texas) if Hamas had violated international humanitarian law, had committed war crimes and genocide, Leaf and Stroul both answered “Yes.”
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Sorry this quote is from her colleague Dana Stroul, deputy assistant secretary of Defense for the Middle East, testified alongside Leaf and laid out boundaries of international humanitarian law, which the administration has said they expect and view Israel as working to operate within, and that Hamas has violated.
 
JahBeeuS said:
thehill.com

Death toll in Gaza likely ‘higher than is being reported’: US official

A senior Biden administration official said the death toll of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip is likely far higher than the 10,000 number being reported by the health ministry amid Israel’s war agai…
thehill.com thehill.com

U.S. source from Biden's camp says toll is likely higher than Palestinian Health Ministry is even stating.




Not coming from some anti-israel nutjob either - she clearly and definitively states that Hamas is in the wrong.
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Exactly, its not like its easy to keep up with the rate that Israel slaughters civilians in a cramped and active war zone
 
swilow said:
Dude, the article literally says "the document was simply a list of dates and days of the week since Oct. 7 under the title “Al Aqsa Flood Battle,” Hamas’ name for the attack, along with the Oct. 7, 2023, date". Whatever the actual truth of the document, its pretty clear it was created by and significant to Hamas.
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yeah they really think they hit on something here

ok so it's clear in 15 other ways that Hamas was using a hospital as a base to hold hostages, but because a piece of paper doesn't list names it just lists dates and references the terror attack, that means... what, exactly?

someguyontheinternet said:
I guess Israel blatantly lying just doesn't matte to you, interesting
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It's not evidence they blatantly lied. It's evidence they should've done better to have their facts straight before releasing the video. It changes nothing regarding the overall implications of that report.
 
someguyontheinternet said:
Exactly, its not like its easy to keep up with the rate that Israel slaughters civilians in a cramped and active war zone
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I like that you just openly ignore the 80% of those comments that absolutely demolish your previous claims. You're just cherrypicking if you want to take the parts you agree with and disregard the rest. Like, note the reference to how Hamas operates? That, my poor sweet infidel friend, is the reason why there are so many dead civilians- on both sides.
 
mal3volent said:
yeah they really think they hit on something here

ok so it's clear in 15 other ways that Hamas was using a hospital as a base to hold hostages, but because a piece of paper doesn't list names it just lists dates and references the terror attack, that means... what, exactly?



It's not evidence they blatantly lied. It's evidence they should've done better to have their facts straight before releasing the video. It changes nothing regarding the overall implications of that report.
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There were no implications because not only did they not show a tunnel by the hospital OR a hostage video with matching curtains, they claimed it was a headquarters but apparently they only found a tiny amount of guns? An amount that could easily be taken in by the IDF in a short amount of time. Zero evidence of anything besides the IDF being disingenuous and claiming that a calendar had names on it. Its absurd that people lap this shit up with zero critical thinking whatsoever as an excuse to bomb hospitals which wouldn't even damage the supposed tunnels that are underneath. Its just so mind numbingly stupid
 
JahBeeuS said:
thehill.com

Death toll in Gaza likely ‘higher than is being reported’: US official

A senior Biden administration official said the death toll of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip is likely far higher than the 10,000 number being reported by the health ministry amid Israel’s war agai…
thehill.com thehill.com

U.S. source from Biden's camp says toll is likely higher than Palestinian Health Ministry is even stating.




Not coming from some anti-israel nutjob either - she clearly and definitively states that Hamas is in the wrong.

Sorry this quote is from her colleague Dana Stroul, deputy assistant secretary of Defense for the Middle East, testified alongside Leaf and laid out boundaries of international humanitarian law, which the administration has said they expect and view Israel as working to operate within, and that Hamas has violated.
Click to expand...


Leaf acknowledged the ministry does not differentiate between civilians and Hamas combatants in its death toll — “they mingle them,” she said. But she underscored that the cost of Israel’s military operations on the besieged region, coupled with Hamas’s use of civilians as human shields, has been devastating.

“In this period of conflict and conditions of war, it is very difficult for any of us to assess what the rate of casualties are,” she said during a Wednesday hearing of the House Foreign Affairs Committee. “We think they’re very high, frankly, and it could be that they’re even higher than are being cited.”


I don't think anyone has ever suggested that the overall death counts are substantially lower in raw numbers. What is being heavily disputed is what portion of those deaths are civilian.
 

mal3volent said:
Leaf acknowledged the ministry does not differentiate between civilians and Hamas combatants in its death toll — “they mingle them,” she said. But she underscored that the cost of Israel’s military operations on the besieged region, coupled with Hamas’s use of civilians as human shields, has been devastating.

“In this period of conflict and conditions of war, it is very difficult for any of us to assess what the rate of casualties are,” she said during a Wednesday hearing of the House Foreign Affairs Committee. “We think they’re very high, frankly, and it could be that they’re even higher than are being cited.”


I don't think anyone has ever suggested that the overall death counts are substantially lower in raw numbers. What is being heavily disputed is what portion of those deaths are civilian.
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And we already went over the probability of a strike hitting a civilian vs a Hamas member, which the chance of is lowered even further by the tunnels which civilians don't have access to. Those deaths are definitely not a majority Hamas members, its not probabilistically feasible. The only conclusion that is reachable is that people making these excuses for the IDF somehow think that Palestinian lives are worth less than Israeli or people are experiencing some extreme cognitive dissonance
 
someguyontheinternet said:
The only conclusion that is reachable is that people making these excuses for the IDF somehow think that Palestinian lives are worth less than Israeli or people are experiencing some extreme cognitive dissonance
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Option 3 is that, as harsh as it sounds, is that the price to be paid to remove Hamas is the lives of some of the civilians Hamas themselves put at risk. It's awful to say it, because yeah, it means women, children, babies are dying. If I were Israeli, I would pull the trigger myself. History tells us what happens when the Jews are unable to fight back. Antizionists start stoking the crematoria.

The thing with your view though, my friend, and of many leftists, is that you keep complaining about Israel killing too many civilians- which I do partially agree with because even 1 is too many- but you were opposed to Israel even before the reprisals on Gaza. You're just shoehorning factoids into what is a emotional argument for you. So I don't really think you care about Palestinians inasmuch as you dislike the Jews because you're an antisem- sorry, antizionist.
 
swilow said:
Option 3 is that, as harsh as it sounds, is that the price to be paid to remove Hamas is the lives of some of the civilians Hamas themselves put at risk
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What if the price is all of the civilians? You still ok with that?

It's awful to say it, because yeah, it means women, children, babies are dying. If I were Israeli, I would pull the trigger myself. History tells us what happens when the Jews are unable to fight back. Antizionists start stoking the crematoria.
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Yea man, it is awful to say...
 
Tranced said:
Incredible that people actually support the military industrial complex, after years of evil intent and millions of lives lost.
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The same criticism can be levelled against the followers of Islam. At its root is the same warlike psychology and political ideology, which has caused countless deaths and legacies of suffering since its inception.

They didn't have to kidnap hundreds of innocent civilians and butcher 1000+. Even if Israel lapsed in its defence, even if it was an intentional lapse, even if Israel (or a third-party) is directing Hamas behind the scenes, none of that means that the people on the ground have to engage in the displayed behaviour.

The world gets outraged, and rightly so, whenever Western forces have been caught red-handed abusing their power and killing/torturing innocent civilians in a theatre of war (Iraq, Vietnam, etc). But I really don't see any denouncement or outrage in the Islamic world about the aforementioned crimes by Hamas, their silence is tacit admission that they see such crimes against Jews as fair game - that same silence can be observed in relation to terrorist attacks against Western targets as well, which shows it goes even deeper than just anti-Semitism.

You can't have it one way but not the other. We have to call out this bullshit whomever is perpetrating it. The Arab world can feel indignant about its treatment by Western oppressiveness, fine, but you can't then turn around and perpetrate the same level of barbarity and then demand neutral parties (i.e. me) take your side over the other. No. Both sides are completely full of shit, and the only winning move is not to play.
 
-=SS=- said:
The same criticism can be levelled against the followers of Islam. At its root is the same warlike psychology and political ideology, which has caused countless deaths and legacies of suffering since its inception.

They didn't have to kidnap hundreds of innocent civilians and butcher 1000+. Even if Israel lapsed in its defence, even if it was an intentional lapse, even if Israel (or a third-party) is directing Hamas behind the scenes, none of that means that the people on the ground have to engage in the displayed behaviour.

The world gets outraged, and rightly so, whenever Western forces have been caught red-handed abusing their power and killing/torturing innocent civilians in a theatre of war (Iraq, Vietnam, etc). But I really don't see any denouncement or outrage in the Islamic world about the aforementioned crimes by Hamas, their silence is tacit admission that they see such crimes against Jews as fair game - that same silence can be observed in relation to terrorist attacks against Western targets as well, which shows it goes even deeper than just anti-Semitism.

You can't have it one way but not the other. We have to call out this bullshit whomever is perpetrating it. The Arab world can feel indignant about its treatment by Western oppressiveness, fine, but you can't then turn around and perpetrate the same level of barbarity and then demand neutral parties (i.e. me) take your side over the other. No. Both sides are completely full of shit, and the only winning move is not to play.
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You're right we do have to call out bullshit, like when we see people talking about how 1000 lives lost is so horrible but absolute silence when its 12000+ on the other side. Almost like some lives are worth more to some people based on the religion and ethnicity of those lives. It's disgusting and sad
 
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