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Israel is under attack

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swilow said:
The fundamental problem is jihadism. The Israelis also drove Christian Arabs off the land on 1948, and yet I don't recall one Christian suicide bomber. The grim reality is that until there is some sort of reformation in Islam, jihadism will always be a threat and everyone else will always be in conflict with it. There wasn't peace between Arabs and Jews before Israel came into existence, it would take something almost supernatural to create peace now. Israel have zero good options, but allowing a group of homicidal medieval savages to exist just beyond their borders is clearly worse than most. The Palestinians have one good option, and it would be to do everything they can to rid themselves of the tyrants who run their society. But with an ideology that rewards murder and hate, we're basically stuck with bombing them until they are too weak to retaliate.
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There is a reason Egypt and Jordan do not want Palestinian refugees.
 
elgoucho9 said:
2.2million people with every aspect of their lives being controlled by the Israelis.
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And yet somehow they're able to source weapons and coordinated training with Iranians, so clearly it's not all controlled by the Israeli's.
Buzz Lightbeer said:
No, he's just describing what it's like being born there. Is he wrong?
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Well language is kind of important when you're throwing around terms like 'concentration camp' and 'genocide'. If you're applying it incorrectly then it undermines everything you're saying - calling it a 'concentration camp' is deliberately provocative and also used to elicit sympathy. It's not a concentration camp.

Gaza has a border with Egypt. You can't frame this discussion by omitting them from the equation. Israel doing what it does is one thing, but where is the condemnation and pressure towards Egypt for equally not wanting anything to do with Gaza and its inhabitants?
 
Mjäll said:
I really believe you are a chill person in general, and a good one. So you can rest assured i'm not judging you.

But in this case you seem to respond with affect, bypassing the structure of logical implications. It is fact that nobody implied that nazi death camps were not concentration camps. The point of contention was whether gaza can be called one. I personally think the term applies. The jewish narrative holds no legitimate monopoly on terms like that.
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Let's lay the prison/concentration camp topic to bed.

Is Israel 100% responsible for the confinement of Gaza? No. In fact, Egypt controls on of the boarders with Gaza, therefore it is not a Jewish or Israeli choice to keep everyone confined to the the Gaza territory.

Gotta ask yourself, if it's all the Jews fault for keeping the people of Gaza in a prison, why aren't the Egyptians letting them out?
 
-=SS=- said:
And yet somehow they're able to source weapons and coordinated training with Iranians, so clearly it's not all controlled by the Israeli's.

Well language is kind of important when you're throwing around terms like 'concentration camp' and 'genocide'. If you're applying it incorrectly then it undermines everything you're saying - calling it a 'concentration camp' is deliberately provocative and also used to elicit sympathy. It's not a concentration camp.

Gaza has a border with Egypt. You can't frame this discussion by omitting them from the equation. Israel doing what it does is one thing, but where is the condemnation and pressure towards Egypt for equally not wanting anything to do with Gaza and its inhabitants?
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you stole my argument!
 
Buzz Lightbeer said:
Do you think it's logical groups like Hamas arise with 2 million people living in those conditions?
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Do I think it's reasonable that people living in these conditions have resentment toward Israel? Absolutely. Do I think it's reasonable that groups like Hamas exist? Absolutely not.

Buzz Lightbeer said:
There'll be another Hamas if they kill them all and nothing fundamentally changes, yes?
Is there a goal other than dishing out punishment?
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I think the primary goal is to kill as many members of Hamas as possible and to take away their capability of reorganizing in Gaza or operating in Gaza. I think this is a noble goal and should be applauded.

Buzz Lightbeer said:
I'm just gauging if you agree with what Israel is doing right now to Gaza, and is planning on doing (re: ground invasion).
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I've never been of the opinion that Israel is perfect or that every decision they make is morally correct. But I put myself in their position. The people who rule over Gaza want to drive all Jews into the sea. They love death more than life. And they just committed the worst act of violence against Jews since the holocaust.

Hamas deliberately embeds its military operations near civilian targets, putting innocent people in harms way. They do this strategically and without regret.

Knowing this, should Israel just do nothing? Any action they take will result in casualties. The world will see images of the horror and they'll be blamed, but what else are they to do? Other than try to minimize the numbers as best they can? They have the right to retaliate, and in my opinion the blood of every civilian who dies is on Hamas. This is what they want.
 
assclass said:
Two options:

A) Hamas has popular support and there are no innocent people there as they all support genocide.

B) Hamas does not have popular support and is controlling the area against the will of the people, but they are unable to rise up for fear of retaliation.
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If Israel has killed 40x more civilians than Hamas in the past 20 years, is it really logical to be calling Hamas the genocidal ones?
 
assclass said:
Let's lay the prison/concentration camp topic to bed.

Is Israel 100% responsible for the confinement of Gaza? No. In fact, Egypt controls on of the boarders with Gaza, therefore it is not a Jewish or Israeli choice to keep everyone confined to the the Gaza territory.

Gotta ask yourself, if it's all the Jews fault for keeping the people of Gaza in a prison, why aren't the Egyptians letting them out?
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I see your point. But:

Is Egypt occupying Palestine?

Does the term "concentration camp" even imply one sole perpetrator? Or could it be a descriptor of a humanitarian situation?
 
Mjäll said:
I really believe you are a chill person in general, and a good one. So you can rest assured i'm not judging you.

But in this case you seem to respond with affect, bypassing the structure of logical implications. It is fact that nobody implied that nazi death camps were not concentration camps. The point of contention was whether gaza can be called one. I personally think the term applies. The jewish narrative holds no legitimate monopoly on terms like that.
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You still aren't getting my point, I don't think. I was never denying that definition could technically be applied to Gaza, if one chose. I was pointing out the double standard westerners have with language. That using the wrong pronoun is literal violence but the accusation that Jews are operating a concentration camp in Gaza (while 100,000+ holocaust survivors still live in Israel) is recited with glee by every leftist on every corner of the internet.
 
mal3volent said:
You still aren't getting my point, I don't think. I was never denying that definition could technically be applied to Gaza, if one chose. I was pointing out the double standard westerners have with language. That using the wrong pronoun is literal violence but the accusation that Jews are operating a concentration camp in Gaza (while 100,000+ holocaust survivors still live in Israel) is recited with glee by every leftist on every corner of the internet.
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Holocaust survivors could never develop a bias or be blinded to their governments atrocities I guess? That checks out, they're just immune
 
Mjäll said:
Does the term "concentration camp" even imply one sole perpetrator? Or could it be a descriptor of a humanitarian situation?
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It doesn't directly imply it, but it is clearly insinuated when the discussion doesn't bother to highlight the fact that Gaza has two borders. It is always used within the context of 'Israel bad' - it is obvious this is the intention.
Mjäll said:
Is Egypt occupying Palestine?
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No one is occupying Palestine, because Palestine never was a state but only a descriptor. That line of argument again only ever comes from one side in this debate, those who wish to see Israel removed/destroyed, and anyone who uses it should realize they fall into that category because there is no going backwards on this.. Israel is not going anywhere.

Again, an emotional argument by one side with an agenda. Not too dissimilar from the BLM arguments in that history is selectively framed in order to convey their narrative/agenda.
 
-=SS=- said:
It doesn't directly imply it, but it is clearly insinuated when the discussion doesn't bother to highlight the fact that Gaza has two borders. It is always used within the context of 'Israel bad' - it is obvious this is the intention.

No one is occupying Palestine, because Palestine never was a state but only a descriptor. That line of argument again only ever comes from one side in this debate, those who wish to see Israel removed/destroyed, and anyone who uses it should realize they fall into that category because there is no going backwards on this.. Israel is not going anywhere.

Again, an emotional argument by one side with an agenda. Not too dissimilar from the BLM arguments in that history is selectively framed in order to convey their narrative/agenda.
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UN among others consider it an occupation, unless i'm mistaken.
 
Mjäll said:
I see your point. But:

Is Egypt occupying Palestine?

Does the term "concentration camp" even imply one sole perpetrator? Or could it be a descriptor of a humanitarian situation?
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Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza


Neither Isreal nor Egypt occupies Gaza, it's an "independent" territory.

If Jews were in a Concentration camp in Germany, but it bordered an neural and friendly country, and there was a gate into the friendly nation from the concentration camp, and the German Nazi's had zero control over the neutral gate, wouldn't the Jews just go to the friendly gate and escape from there?

I guess there isn't a hard rule that says a concentration camp can only be run by one State, but you really need to consider why apparently the Jews are evil and hate the Muslims, but a Muslim country could give their brothers and sisters freedom, but choose not too. Why?!
 
mal3volent said:
You still aren't getting my point, I don't think. I was never denying that definition could technically be applied to Gaza, if one chose. I was pointing out the double standard westerners have with language. That using the wrong pronoun is literal violence but the accusation that Jews are operating a concentration camp in Gaza (while 100,000+ holocaust survivors still live in Israel) is recited with glee by every leftist on every corner of the internet.
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progressives are just power hungry morons.
they dont care about logic, facts or truth.
anything to advance their cause.

That is why their coalitions are crumbling, because they built political power by uniting minorities, but unfortunately some of those minorities hate each other.

It's really hard to rally Jews and Palestinians together if you don't have a big Orange Man Bad monster to unite against.
 
assclass said:
Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza


Neither Isreal nor Egypt occupies Gaza, it's an "independent" territory.

If Jews were in a Concentration camp in Germany, but it bordered an neural and friendly country, and there was a gate into the friendly nation from the concentration camp, and the German Nazi's had zero control over the neutral gate, wouldn't the Jews just go to the friendly gate and escape from there?

I guess there isn't a hard rule that says a concentration camp can only be run by one State, but you really need to consider why apparently the Jews are evil and hate the Muslims, but a Muslim country could give their brothers and sisters freedom, but choose not too. Why?!
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I'm not really convinced either way. Here is a quote from your source:

"The United Nations, international human rights organizations and many legal scholars regard the Gaza Strip to still be under military occupation by Israel.[5] This is disputed by Israel and other legal scholars.[6] Following the withdrawal, Israel continues to maintain direct control over Gaza's air and maritime space, six of Gaza's seven land crossings, maintains a no-go buffer zone within the territory, controls the Palestinian population registry, and Gaza remains dependent on Israel for its water, electricity, telecommunications, and other utilities.[5][7]"

It doesn't seem all over to me.

Egypt is another country, not necessarily "friendly" in the sense they'd be expected to just have open borders for anyone of the same basic religion.

assclass said:
UN is also a bunch of idiots. and well there are lots of countries that hate Israel and use diplomacy to attack them. Lots of poor countries have a habit of voting with the wealthy Arab Jew hating countries for reason$$$.
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I agree, i'm not treating UN as a neutral source. But they hold some weight in these contexts.
 
Mjäll said:
I'm not really convinced either way. Here is a quote from your source:

"The United Nations, international human rights organizations and many legal scholars regard the Gaza Strip to still be under military occupation by Israel.[5] This is disputed by Israel and other legal scholars.[6] Following the withdrawal, Israel continues to maintain direct control over Gaza's air and maritime space, six of Gaza's seven land crossings, maintains a no-go buffer zone within the territory, controls the Palestinian population registry, and Gaza remains dependent on Israel for its water, electricity, telecommunications, and other utilities.[5][7]"

It doesn't seem all over to me.

Egypt is another country, not necessarily "friendly" in the sense they'd be expected to just have open borders for anyone of the same basic religion.
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Israel has a land border with two sides of Gaza.

Why does Israel have a military border with Gaza? Because Hamas militants cross the border and kill innocent people.

Why does Israel maintain control over the air and sea of Gaza? Rockets! Attacks via sea. Smuggling via Sea. Paraglider attacks.

Israel just learned that it can't let down it's guard.

Yes, Egypt is another country. Same religion, but the problem is that the State of Egypt has a problem with the Muslim Brotherhood who are friends with Hamas. If the Palestinian people were happy and friendly and totally not fucking terrorists scum, why wouldn't Egypt welcome their brothers into the country knowing they are living in terrible conditions?
 
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