Israel is under attack

[paranoid android]

Okay. Remove the socialist part and I think you're idea is not too bad. But, the fact remains, a significant proportion of both Israelis and Palestinians don't want this. To my mind, a 2 state solution using the borders declared in 1947 would be a suitable compromise.

Unless they become socialist the only thing that will change over there is that you would have Palestinians oppressing Palestinians. Hardly a great outcome

 

[pharmakos]

To those critical of Israel- I'm curious what you think Israel should do in response to the Hamas attack? And what should they in regards to the question of Palestine in general?

I don't feel like we're getting far yelling at each other, so I'm sincerely asking in good faith. Please respond in kind

Tbc, these are not rhetorical questions.

I'm not sure what they should do, but the fact that the Israeli government propped up and supported Hamas specifically to destabilize the region, just to start the violence and have an excuse to invade Gaza... Should we be supporting them?

 

[pharmakos]

Btw, has anyone thought of this -- the last election in Palestine was 17 years ago, and the median age there is 19 years old (global median age on Earth btw is 30 years old). That means the majority of Palestinians alive today didn't even vote Hamas in. And yet Israel treats them all as if they're complicit in Hamas' atrocities.

 

[AlsoTapered]

The problem with any compromise solution is that both sides have to accept such a solution.

 

[swilow]

I'm not sure what they should do, but the fact that the Israeli government propped up and supported Hamas specifically to destabilize the region, just to start the violence and have an excuse to invade Gaza... Should we be supporting them?

There's little doubt in my mind that Netanyahu is a corrupt, Machiavellian political machine. But yes, I certainly support the innocent people of Israel. In the same way, I don't blame Palestinians in general for the atrocities but have aimed my criticism solely at Hamas. Given the situation caused by that group, I don't see how Israel has any other option but to take the fight directly to the fanatics. Who hide themselves among innocent people and do this knowing that Israel will have to exercise greater military restraint and even then, innocent people will die. Tbc, that's because Hamas knowingly put those people at risk.

Do you think that Hamas are justified in continuously attacking Israel? If you do, fine. I think that's monstrous. But if you don't, you'd have to agree that they must be stopped. And ultimately, if they are ousted, this may just give the citizens of Gaza a chance at a better life.

Btw, has anyone thought of this -- the last election in Palestine was 17 years ago, and the median age there is 19 years old (global median age on Earth btw is 30 years old). That means the majority of Palestinians alive today didn't even vote Hamas in. And yet Israel treats them all as if they're complicit in Hamas' atrocities.

But a slim majority of Gaza citizens do support Hamas as of 2021. And the majority is also a majority of younger people. This is not to say that I agree that Israel treat all citizens of Gaza as complicit. If they did, they would have flattened the entire area decades ago. But when you have something like a million people who tacitly agree that your people should be wiped out, how are you meant to respond? How can you even tell who harbours genocidal intentions and who doesn't? Certainly, most Germans didn't advocate gassing the Jews but it happened to 6 million anyway. In the face of almost 2000 years of persecution, that Israel are just expected to sit peacefully with neighbours who pray for their demise and celebrate their murders is just insane, and with the ghosts of 6 million haunting them, the restraint Israel show towards those who would add another 6 million is mind boggling.

Tbc, Israel have done awful things. But no other people have been persecuted in the way the Jews have everywhere they go, and continue to be by Hamas. They have absolutely no choices here.

 

[pharmakos]

There's little doubt in my mind that Netanyahu is a corrupt, Machiavellian political machine. But yes, I certainly support the innocent people of Israel. In the same way, I don't blame Palestinians in general for the atrocities but have aimed my criticism solely at Hamas. Given the situation caused by that group, I don't see how Israel has any other option but to take the fight directly to the fanatics. Who hide themselves among innocent people and do this knowing that Israel will have to exercise greater military restraint and even then, innocent people will die. Tbc, that's because Hamas knowingly put those people at risk.

Do you think that Hamas are justified in continuously attacking Israel? If you do, fine. I think that's monstrous. But if you don't, you'd have to agree that they must be stopped. And ultimately, if they are ousted, this may just give the citizens of Gaza a chance at a better life.



But a slim majority of Gaza citizens do support Hamas as of 2021. And the majority is also a majority of younger people. This is not to say that I agree that Israel treat all citizens of Gaza as complicit. If they did, they would have flattened the entire area decades ago. But when you have something like a million people who tacitly agree that your people should be wiped out, how are you meant to respond? How can you even tell who harbours genocidal intentions and who doesn't? Certainly, most Germans didn't advocate gassing the Jews but it happened to 6 million anyway. In the face of almost 2000 years of persecution, that Israel are just expected to sit peacefully with neighbours who pray for their demise and celebrate their murders is just insane, and with the ghosts of 6 million haunting them, the restraint Israel show towards those who would add another 6 million is mind boggling.

Tbc, Israel have done awful things. But no other people have been persecuted in the way the Jews have everywhere they go, and continue to be by Hamas. They have absolutely no choices here.

Nah i don't think the violence on either side is justified. Israel definitely isn't just striking at Hamas tho. Pictures of North Gaza show near complete destruction of every structure. And they're using the excuse "we can't help it if Hamas is using innocent civilians as human shields." Thing is... there's other methods of taking out Hamas besides carpet bombing. But they're not willing to risk their own lives -- despite not caring if innocent Palestinians die as collateral damage.

Also, the fact remains that way more Palestinians than Israelis have died in the past 20 years. Framing this current Israeli aggression as a new thing isn't correct. They've been the oppressors for a very long time.

There are major players on both sides that want the other side obliterated. Your argument of "is Israel not supposed to respond?" applies *equally* to Palestine.

This comic sums it up in a very concise way:



Re: how can you tell who harbors genocidal intentions?

There are individuals on both sides that are very open about the fact that they want the other side completely wiped off the Earth. Think about the most racist redneck in America and what they say about minorities. That sort of talk goes on in Israel and Palestine too.

 

[paranoid android]

There's little doubt in my mind that Netanyahu is a corrupt, Machiavellian political machine. But yes, I certainly support the innocent people of Israel. In the same way, I don't blame Palestinians in general for the atrocities but have aimed my criticism solely at Hamas. Given the situation caused by that group, I don't see how Israel has any other option but to take the fight directly to the fanatics. Who hide themselves among innocent people and do this knowing that Israel will have to exercise greater military restraint and even then, innocent people will die. Tbc, that's because Hamas knowingly put those people at risk.

Do you think that Hamas are justified in continuously attacking Israel? If you do, fine. I think that's monstrous. But if you don't, you'd have to agree that they must be stopped. And ultimately, if they are ousted, this may just give the citizens of Gaza a chance at a better life.



But a slim majority of Gaza citizens do support Hamas as of 2021. And the majority is also a majority of younger people. This is not to say that I agree that Israel treat all citizens of Gaza as complicit. If they did, they would have flattened the entire area decades ago. But when you have something like a million people who tacitly agree that your people should be wiped out, how are you meant to respond? How can you even tell who harbours genocidal intentions and who doesn't? Certainly, most Germans didn't advocate gassing the Jews but it happened to 6 million anyway. In the face of almost 2000 years of persecution, that Israel are just expected to sit peacefully with neighbours who pray for their demise and celebrate their murders is just insane, and with the ghosts of 6 million haunting them, the restraint Israel show towards those who would add another 6 million is mind boggling.

Tbc, Israel have done awful things. But no other people have been persecuted in the way the Jews have everywhere they go, and continue to be by Hamas. They have absolutely no choices here.

They support Hamas because they have little choice really. It was Israel after all that wanted Hamas to run the place anyway. In my opinion it's Israel that are behaving like the Nazis

 

[pharmakos]

Israel didn't need to kick out the Palestinians in the first place. The Jewish people could have moved back to Judea and coexisted. Muslim vs. Jewish violence in the modern world is so bad ***because of*** the formation of Israel and the way they treated the Muslims in the process. Sure, there would be anti-Semite Muslims either way, but certainly not nearly as many.

I have Muslim friends from the Middle East, and Zionism at the expense of everyone else is the number one reason they cite as being unhappy with Israel.

 

[paranoid android]

Israel didn't need to kick out the Palestinians in the first place. The Jewish people could have moved back to Judea and coexisted. Muslim vs. Jewish violence in the modern world is so bad ***because of*** the formation of Israel and the way they treated the Muslims in the process. Sure, there would be anti-Semite Muslims either way, but certainly not nearly as many.

I have Muslim friends from the Middle East, and Zionism at the expense of everyone else is the number one reason they cite as being unhappy with Israel.

The last thing Israel wants is jews and muslims to actually coexst. They want them to keep fighting to keep their eye off class warfare

 

[Delsyd]

Israel didn't need to kick out the Palestinians in the first place. The Jewish people could have moved back to Judea and coexisted. Muslim vs. Jewish violence in the modern world is so bad ***because of*** the formation of Israel and the way they treated the Muslims in the process. Sure, there would be anti-Semite Muslims either way, but certainly not nearly as many.

I have Muslim friends from the Middle East, and Zionism at the expense of everyone else is the number one reason they cite as being unhappy with Israel.

there was certainly antisemitism in the Middle East in the early 20th before the creation of Israel.

Hajj Amin al-Husayni: Wartime Propagandist

Former Mufti of Jerusalem Hajj Amin al-Husayni was an exiled political leader who sought an alliance with the Axis Powers. Learn about his wartime propaganda efforts.

encyclopedia.ushmm.org

“Al-Husayni… labeled the Jews as the enemy of Islam, and used crude racist terminology to depict Jews and Jewish behavior, particularly as he forged a closer relationship with the SS in 1943 and 1944. He described Jews as having immutable characteristics and behaviors. On occasion, he would compare Jewishness to infectious disease and Jews to microbes or bacilli. In at least one speech attributed to him, he advocated killing Jews wherever Arabs found them. He consistently advocated "removing" the Jewish homeland from Palestine and, on occasion, driving every Jew out of Palestine and other Arab lands.”

This battle has been raging since before Israel existed.

 

[pharmakos]

there was certainly antisemitism in the Middle East in the early 20th before the creation of Israel.

Hajj Amin al-Husayni: Wartime Propagandist

Former Mufti of Jerusalem Hajj Amin al-Husayni was an exiled political leader who sought an alliance with the Axis Powers. Learn about his wartime propaganda efforts.

encyclopedia.ushmm.org

“Al-Husayni… labeled the Jews as the enemy of Islam, and used crude racist terminology to depict Jews and Jewish behavior, particularly as he forged a closer relationship with the SS in 1943 and 1944. He described Jews as having immutable characteristics and behaviors. On occasion, he would compare Jewishness to infectious disease and Jews to microbes or bacilli. In at least one speech attributed to him, he advocated killing Jews wherever Arabs found them. He consistently advocated "removing" the Jewish homeland from Palestine and, on occasion, driving every Jew out of Palestine and other Arab lands.”

This battle has been raging since before Israel existed.

Yup, like I said, there would be anti-Semite Muslims either way, but the way the Western world came in and exiled 3/4 of a million people to make the state of Israel very much has polarized and radicalized the people.

Also doesn't help that the US has put a bunch of totalitarian religious regimes into power in the Middle East. Iran, for example, was very progressive before the CIA manipulated things to put a totalitarian Sharia law government into power there.

I'm too tired to put it into words properly right now, but combine our meddling in the greater Middle East with the fact that Israel may as well be a US Territory, and yeah... No wonder things have turned out the way they have.

 

[swilow]

Israel didn't need to kick out the Palestinians in the first place. The Jewish people could have moved back to Judea and coexisted. Muslim vs. Jewish violence in the modern world is so bad ***because of*** the formation of Israel and the way they treated the Muslims in the process. Sure, there would be anti-Semite Muslims either way, but certainly not nearly as many.

I have Muslim friends from the Middle East, and Zionism at the expense of everyone else is the number one reason they cite as being unhappy with Israel.

The original plan was two states, a Jewish and a Palestinian. It wasn't Israel that demurred from the plan though. That was the Palestinians.

I think it's somewhat naive to say the roots of the conflict stem from the original partition. There has been conflict between Muslims and Jews ever since Islam was founded. This modern version is simply another iteration of that.

But, okay. The founding of Israel was done badly. Take that premise. What now? Israel are not going to move. They cannot afford to. They're where they are, and that's that. Palestinians are not going to achieve their "from river to sea" goal, it's madness to imagine this. We deal with the situation as it is. And Israel exists, for better or worse.

During the Irish troubles, there came a point where the IRA came to realise that their desire to be completely free of the British wasn't going to be achieved, and old IRA leaders started seeing their children go down the same path towards militancy they themselves had so futilely, and so they sued for peace. There has to come a point where the Palestinians accept their situation. If their goal is a united Palestine without the Jews, they will never win and will continue to suffer. If they can rid themselves of the brutal domination of fanatical terrorists, the Palestinian people will eventually be able to live normal lives, and so will the Israelis. There's no hope of this while Hamas governs Gaza. There are no other options.

 

[Tranced]

The original plan was two states, a Jewish and a Palestinian. It wasn't Israel that demurred from the plan though. That was the Palestinians.

I think it's somewhat naive to say the roots of the conflict stem from the original partition. There has been conflict between Muslims and Jews ever since Islam was founded. This modern version is simply another iteration of that.

But, okay. The founding of Israel was done badly. Take that premise. What now? Israel are not going to move. They cannot afford to. They're where they are, and that's that. Palestinians are not going to achieve their "from river to sea" goal, it's madness to imagine this. We deal with the situation as it is. And Israel exists, for better or worse.

During the Irish troubles, there came a point where the IRA came to realise that their desire to be completely free of the British wasn't going to be achieved, and old IRA leaders started seeing their children go down the same path towards militancy they themselves had so futilely, and so they sued for peace. There has to come a point where the Palestinians accept their situation. If their goal is a united Palestine without the Jews, they will never win and will continue to suffer. If they can rid themselves of the brutal domination of fanatical terrorists, the Palestinian people will eventually be able to live normal lives, and so will the Israelis. There's no hope of this while Hamas governs Gaza. There are no other options.

Hey mate, good to know you're doing okay. Was worried for a time.

Wouldn't be saying the same if you were a Palestinian of course. .

Will PM you. x

FTR think you have a bias towards Israel here. It's the ordinary people that are being hurt. What happened over thousands of years is mostly irrelevant when people had lands stolen in their lifetimes.

We should all be very afraid of the normalisation or acceptance of land grabs, war or genocide right now. Certain people are very interested in this kind of shit.

 

[paranoid android]

The original plan was two states, a Jewish and a Palestinian. It wasn't Israel that demurred from the plan though. That was the Palestinians.

I think it's somewhat naive to say the roots of the conflict stem from the original partition. There has been conflict between Muslims and Jews ever since Islam was founded. This modern version is simply another iteration of that.

But, okay. The founding of Israel was done badly. Take that premise. What now? Israel are not going to move. They cannot afford to. They're where they are, and that's that. Palestinians are not going to achieve their "from river to sea" goal, it's madness to imagine this. We deal with the situation as it is. And Israel exists, for better or worse.

During the Irish troubles, there came a point where the IRA came to realise that their desire to be completely free of the British wasn't going to be achieved, and old IRA leaders started seeing their children go down the same path towards militancy they themselves had so futilely, and so they sued for peace. There has to come a point where the Palestinians accept their situation. If their goal is a united Palestine without the Jews, they will never win and will continue to suffer. If they can rid themselves of the brutal domination of fanatical terrorists, the Palestinian people will eventually be able to live normal lives, and so will the Israelis. There's no hope of this while Hamas governs Gaza. There are no other options.

And what happened in Ireland? Fucking capitalism completely fucked the country just like neo liberalism is fucking the entire globe. The only thing that changed in Ireland was the accent of the oppressors and the color of the flag. If a 2 state solution is used in Israel and Palestine the exact same thing will happen there

 

[pharmakos]

The original plan was two states, a Jewish and a Palestinian. It wasn't Israel that demurred from the plan though. That was the Palestinians.

Of course they didn't go for it. They were the only ones that had to give up anything.

Rest of your post is spot on. One caveat tho, something I keep repeating but that I don't see anyone hook onto -- Israel intentionally propped up Hamas to destabilize the region. You're right that as long as Hamas is in charge, there will be no peace. But Israel helped Hamas gain their power. So what does that tell you about whether or not the Israeli government truly wants peace?

 

[Tranced]

And what happened in Ireland? Fucking capitalism completely fucked the country just like neo liberalism is fucking the entire globe. The only thing that changed in Ireland was the accent of the oppressors and the color of the flag. If a 2 state solution is used in Israel and Palestine the exact same thing will happen there

I feel more i touch with the Irish and the Scots than I do with the rest of the English, though that's hardly surprising considering I live in the North and beyond the wall.

Neo liberalism is a complete cancer. Tony Blair (of WEF fame) inflicted that shit upon us, and now right/left are all muddled up and inverted. So many "former lefties" are now spouting completely inverted ideals and political beliefs because the crowd was gradually shifted in that direction.

I'm more of a classic British lefty/someone who's realised it's all divisive bullshit, and hence I think fuck all war.

Seeing a girl kidnapped at an Israeli psy trance festival absolutely broke my heart, but I still think "fuck war". Bombing children back for revenge is absolutely NOT the answer, no matter how well people think they can justify it. It's genuinely fucking sick, and people should feel fucking well ashamed.



Anybody who supports that wants to have a fucking word with themselves. If you don't watch that and think "oh yeah actually innocent people being hurt is happening and wrong, nothing is being helped" then I don't know what to say, really.

 

[swilow]

But Israel helped Hamas gain their power. So what does that tell you about whether or not the Israeli government truly wants peace?

I've said what I thought of Netanyahu already.

Do you think the Israelis wanted to be slaughtered en masse? Why would they want that? As a pretext for destroying the group you're saying they are keeping in power? That doesn't make sense.

Look, I get that the Israeli government have blood on their hands, like most governments but maybe more than many. But no one has been willing to explain what exactly they should do about multiple brutal massacres happening on their soil against innocent non-combatants at the hands of savages who want their entire people gone. It all seems to boil down to "they kinda deserved it" and so Israel should do....what, nothing? Sorry, but that's not acceptable to me. I am keen to hear an alternative but what is there?

 

[Tranced]

I've said what I thought of Netanyahu already.

Do you think the Israelis wanted to be slaughtered en masse? Why would they want that? As a pretext for destroying the group you're saying they are keeping in power? That doesn't make sense.

Look, I get that the Israeli government have blood on their hands, like most governments but maybe more than many. But no one has been willing to explain what exactly they should do about multiple brutal massacres happening on their soil against innocent non-combatants at the hands of savages who want their entire people gone. It all seems to boil down to "they kinda deserved it" and so Israel should do....what, nothing? Sorry, but that's not acceptable to me. I am keen to hear an alternative but what is there?

Not bomb civilians who will inherently want to wage war against them. Act with peace, love, humility. Accept their wrongs, give land back. Not kill children who are innocent. Not airstrike buildings where innocent children are sleeping. Not meddle in the countries politics to perpetuate war. Is that so outlandish to think?

Either have two states and/or integrate them into society, instead of vilifying them and committing the very genocide they so hate.

It reminds me of "just two weeks to flatten the curve".

"Just one more war to flatten the terrorists" (country, in reality, or whatever they call it)

When, in our generation, was there ever a war which created peace? Never, because they just create more war! The people doing this, do not think like you do Swilow. They have different objectives - such as that nice strip of land occupied by insufferable and irritating poor civilians.

 

[swilow]

Not bomb civilians who will inherently want to wage war against them. Act with peace, love, humility. Accept their wrongs, give land back. Not kill children who are innocent. Not airstrike buildings where innocent children are sleeping. Not meddle in the countries politics to perpetuate war. Is that so outlandish to think?

So after Hamas attack their innocent women and children, Israel should not respond? Has that worked for them in the past?

I understand what you're saying, but that isn't what my question was. It's how should Israel respond to the recent attacks? Not what they should have retroactively done, what should they do after the fact?

I get the sympathy people have for the Palestinians but I don't understand why so many just cannot extend that to the Jews. This is just not as simple as a colonial oppressor fighting the helpless poor people. It's a group who escaped genocide confronted by religious extremists who want their entire people to die.

 

[Mjäll]

There's little doubt in my mind that Netanyahu is a corrupt, Machiavellian political machine. But yes, I certainly support the innocent people of Israel. In the same way, I don't blame Palestinians in general for the atrocities but have aimed my criticism solely at Hamas. Given the situation caused by that group, I don't see how Israel has any other option but to take the fight directly to the fanatics. Who hide themselves among innocent people and do this knowing that Israel will have to exercise greater military restraint and even then, innocent people will die. Tbc, that's because Hamas knowingly put those people at risk.

Do you think that Hamas are justified in continuously attacking Israel? If you do, fine. I think that's monstrous. But if you don't, you'd have to agree that they must be stopped. And ultimately, if they are ousted, this may just give the citizens of Gaza a chance at a better life.



But a slim majority of Gaza citizens do support Hamas as of 2021. And the majority is also a majority of younger people. This is not to say that I agree that Israel treat all citizens of Gaza as complicit. If they did, they would have flattened the entire area decades ago. But when you have something like a million people who tacitly agree that your people should be wiped out, how are you meant to respond? How can you even tell who harbours genocidal intentions and who doesn't? Certainly, most Germans didn't advocate gassing the Jews but it happened to 6 million anyway. In the face of almost 2000 years of persecution, that Israel are just expected to sit peacefully with neighbours who pray for their demise and celebrate their murders is just insane, and with the ghosts of 6 million haunting them, the restraint Israel show towards those who would add another 6 million is mind boggling.

Tbc, Israel have done awful things. But no other people have been persecuted in the way the Jews have everywhere they go, and continue to be by Hamas. They have absolutely no choices here.

That "antisemitism" angle doesn't apply and just conflates things.

Palestinians have a historical grudge about their land having been taken to create a jewish nation. That's the issue. The jewishness part is not the issue.

This kind of conflation keeps conflicts going by enforcing rigid categories and encouraging moral spillover.

To be a jew is to adhere to one specific brand of religion, i.e one specific brand of old lies. It's not an ethnicity. Children are not born religious. To wield the power of an ancient pyramid scheme is not to be a victim.