nepalnt21
Bluelighter
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killing civilians, children... and you seem to be cheering it on. this is a moral failing.
hamas bad, therefore let's kill innocent ppl...
Israel is under attack
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hamas bad, therefore let's kill innocent ppl...
swilow
Bluelight Crew
Woah, brutal condemnation
I'm really not trying to justify anything but then, you seem to see genocide all over the place. And yet, you're clearly more sympathetic to the group of people who have literally, openly, repeatedly called explicitly for genocide against the Jews.
I have mixed feelings about cutting off water and food to Gaza. I agree, it's inhumane and punishes the innocent. OTOH, I see it as absolutely the fault of Hamas for doing what they did. What possible response did they imagine? Would you keep feeding someone if they were trying to kill you? How did they think this was going to turn out?
Let us hope that this all ends before more innocent people are killed. To my mind, this would involve Hamas being ousted from Gaza. With the majority support they have, hard to see this happening organically.
Baruch Goldstein - Wikipedia
one of these things is not like the other things.
alasdair
swilow
Bluelight Crew
I'm a touch sceptical too. For of war and all that. I am more certain there was a massacre at that kibbutz and children were killed, less sure that babies were being beheaded.
This is actually not a good time to be on twitter/social media. There are so many horrific videos out there (dying man having head hacked off with a garden hoe for example) that instantly stir powerful emotions, but provenance is definitely dubious. These days, it seems that most sources of info are comprised is some way. Wikipedia, despite its clear partisan/leftist bias, at least presents sources for their claims. One can then make a determination as to the integrity of the information for oneself.
nepalnt21
Bluelighter
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if you're implying hamas here, i'm very clearly not... you're pulling meaning where there is none or some shit, idk
Yeah I feel likepretty much every social media has been hijacked for propaganda purposes by now. This is one of the cases where traditional interneg forum media can prove its prowess-conversation is simply higher quality. They also act as community very well.
I'd like an answer too. If life is so unbearable in Gaza, an open-air prison, then why the hell would you continue to bring more children into it? In fact, if life is so unbearable there then why stay at all? It's a thin strip of desert waste as far as I can ascertain, no resources, no real value except the historical/religious connection.
If you remove the religious hatred component, is it not kind of similar to North Korea and South Korea? The sensible people in NK would give their left nut to be able to get across the border and start living in SK. Life is too short not to, right? So isn't that part of the answer as to why the average age is 17-18, that there is a very strong self-perpetuating religious component in this that sees itself as being more important than the lives of the human beings it possesses? You have men who are willing to rape, butcher dead bodies, behead, and all the rest. Sounds pretty much like possession to me when you strip away the 'religious' label.
At some point, yes, you have to take it on the chin and move the fuck on. What are you going to do, waste your entire life feeling pride and resentment for a context that existed before you even existed? You're not going to change the situation given Israel has nuclear weapons. Israel's creation shouldn't have happened in the first instance, or at least happened in a different way, but you can't roll it back now.. practically it is too late for that.
When I see people saying 'Free Palestine', I wonder if they have even had a subsequent thought of what that might actually look like beyond destroying Israel? I mean lets be real here and not pussyfoot around, these people want to see Israel destroyed and Jews killed, and I don't believe a word otherwise on that. I have no stake on either side of this, but I do think to myself stop being so fucking greedy for god sake, Arabs control the entire fucking region already and you guys still make a hash of it with your religious nuttery. What's it to you if Jews have a little wedge of shitty sandy land?
If it wasn't for the religious component would they even care? It's useless, unproductive desert if we're being honest here. And it's also not like there is a shortage of similar terrain in the region either, there's plenty of space for everyone to enjoy a sandy butthole experience.
I do love the irony of the apparently numerous 'free palestine' crowds living in multiple western cities across the globe. Not too dissimilar to the BLM crowd in the sense that they're happy to enjoy the fruits of the countries they hate, but not so motivated enough to actually go live in the ancestral home they apparently love. I wonder why that would be. I live in one of these western cities and I'd quite like it not to become the kind of place that these people support.. leave your hatred and bullshit at the door, or fuck off, quite frankly. For all the fault of either side in this, and that includes Britain as well, hatred of the other side is never going to do anything except make life worse for the small people.
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nepalnt21
Bluelighter
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poor people in shitty conditions still have to live life... are they just supposed to stop fucking? as though their lives aren't shitty enough...
uh... because (like you said), it's an open air prison? how are they gonna leave?
Why do you have the belief that they have the option of leaving? Why should they leave if it has been their home for hundreds of years?
No different to myself as British person, let's say claiming to be a druid or some long lost historical group of these isles. Doesn't change the fact that I can't rock up on some public land and build myself a house now, the game has changed and it's futile to believe it can be fought against.
If a person has been alive for 18 years then there home has been home for 18 years, not hundreds of years. Fuck pride. If it's a choice between taking on other humans historical baggage you had nothing to do with, or making peace with the current situation and moving on, which is more worthy of your limited life energy and time? As a British person I feel no sense of pride or get all choked up about the world wars etc, or for the land beyond its inherent beauty as land, because I see the pain it causes to cling on to things which were before my time and I am under no obligation to perpetuate the cycle of misery as much as I love my parents and understand the pain it caused them. That's their cultural baggage, and life is traumatic enough as it is without taking on others trauma as well.
They don't have to leave, but on the same token what have these people done to really help their situation? If they see Hamas for what it is, they can fight against it or leave, otherwise they have to accept the reality of the situation. You (a Palestinian) can't expect the world to wait patiently just so you can live your life because of some pride of the past, expecting Israel to tolerate this group of terrorists who threaten the lives of other people (Israeli's) across the border who also just want to live their lives.
I take a calculated risk, knowing what the British establishment is like and the context it exists within geopolitically. That I may have to at some point get up and leave, or stay and perish. Unfortunately that is life on this planet, we haven't transcended violence and warfare yet, and as much as I wish it weren't this way that is the reality of it. It sucks. It really does. But where I personally draw the line is the pointless religious hatred, from any group, because we aren't ever going to evolve any further so long as people cling to this shit that just breeds perpetual trauma.
Do you only address the last question you read? Jeez this is like emailing people at work. Never ask more than one question because you only get response to one.
In that entire book you wrote you never addressed the idea that you think that people can easily leave what is being referred to as a "prison"
Assuming it is a prison, Gaza borders Egypt too. If Egypt is not allowing people to leave Gaza then you have to ask why they would take that approach, and not just Israel. You also have to ask why the UN or an international body has not setup an asylum system where people in Gaza who want to leave can be processed and then leave.
Failing that, the people of Gaza realistically only have one other option and that is to topple Hamas themselves and make Gaza a place that Israel/Egypt is happy to have relations with.
I like to think people are capable of intellectually dealing with more than single sentence answers that don't convey even a fraction of the information necessary to form a proper perspective. If you can't handle more than twitter length answers that's not my issue, that's yours.
Here's a question for you then. What do you think the solution is regarding Gaza?
I think its ironic that you think people should be able to handle long form answers but in your long form answer you are only capable of responding to one singular point. Did you not understand what I said about asking more than one question?
I say no more than is needed because the rest tends to be bullshit fluff
It's always funny to me when people say that if someone doesn't like it somewhere they should just leave as if their family hasn't been there for decades or to people who are too poor to even get basic necessities
Gaza has been under blockade since 2006 this isn't recent
Jesus dude, are you actually interested in having a discussion about this or are you just going to moan about my style of response because you can't fit your own responses around it. I can't be bothered with your thinly veiled attempts at shit stirring, it's all you seem to do across all the threads you post in, some I'm muting you.
gordonliddy
Bluelighter
Really? Because that's exactly what they're doing, unless you don't count the farm raids as attacks on civilian populations. Which is how the rest of the world sees it.
You're wasting your time. It is kind of you to speak up. They don't see that all of their arguments fall into about four categories, and in response to each category if they're wrong, the Palestinians don't belong their and have to leave. If they're right, the Palestinians refuse to assimilate and therefore have to leave.
They are unable to trace their own arguments to the logical conclusion because they don't see the three predominant possibilities:
- Someone will nuke Jews, all Jews die and no more Jews. Genocide. Not likely, but many people claim to want this.
- Palestinians remain where they are and continue to commit terrorist attacks, more and more of this will happen.
- Palestinians leave and go start a new life elsewhere.
Like if we were being tough on them, and said "OK, which of the three above possibilities does your agrument primarily support?" It would help to expose the illogic of their agruments. Palestinians have to leave, and they will create problems wherever they go. Rejected by the Ottomans, rejected by Saudi...Israel was their last chance. Only Jews would be this patient with people.
Burnt Offerings
Bluelight Crew
I wouldn’t say that it has absolutely NOTHING to do with religion, and you can incorporate methods of analysis that focus on the religious and cultural aspects of the conflict, that’s certainly valid. But I also think his point is a good one…I too often find historical materialism a good method for analyzing events in the past & present (ie focusing on how resources are distributed in among human populations and viewing religious and/or political structures as an outgrowth of that…human ideology as dependent on economic factors basically)
As with anything it can be taken too far and end up in a crude reductionist analysis which lacks nuance, but it can provide a lot of insight too.
Additionally, I often see a problem online regarding this topic of Israel/Palestine, in which some smug people just shake their heads, tut tut and go, oh those silly people in that part of the world slaughtering each other cuz their sky daddy told em too, so glad that enlightened people such as ourselves have evolved intellectually and can rest assured in our own superiority. It ignores a lot of context for the conflict, some of which I mentioned in a previous post in this thread.
AlsoTapered
Bluelighter
Their has been a reasonably effective media blackout but Israel has bombed out the crossing between Gaza and Egypt. The Palestinian enclaves within the (areas that the government of Palestine states is under their control) on the West Bank don't border Jordan, Syria or Lebanon. So no supplies of any kind can get in and nobody can get out.
So essentially, it's within the power of Israel to simply bomb the entire Palestinian state flat. The current rhetoric is that captives are as good as dead anyway and so a short, intense aerial campaign of area bombing is taking place.
Israel doesn't appear to possess any heavy bombers but given the range of missions, I imagine they are capable of essentially carpet bombing all infrastructure.
Then, I'm not sure if they WILL bother with a ground invasion. It doesn't sound like those Palestinian areas have reserves of water, let alone food or medicines.
Sadly, the Arabic neighbours have been using Palestine to fight a proxy-war (having lost multiple 'hot wars' with Israel) and I suspect the plan it simply to eradicate Palestine physically and then allow survivors to seek safety in said Arab nations.
It's hardly a secret that successive Israeli governments have promoted nationalism and faith, combining the two as a flag to rally around.
I don't think this is going to be the long conflict many people believe it will be. The emergency 'unity government' is promoting the Hezbollah attacks as an existential threat and Israel does rather try to ensure that such threats are entirely destroyed.
A lot of innocent Palestinian civilians are going to die but more importantly to Israel, Palestine is essentially going to be wiped off the face of the earth.
I'm not purposefully being unemotional or stoic. I'm merely someone who has been watching the conflict for over 50 years and the Hezbollah attacks have fed right into the hands of Israel's political needs.
I'm sure Russia will have provided aid as it's just another proxy war with the US but I'm 100% certain that US back-channels will be stating 'if it is to be done, let it be done fast'.
So essentially, it's within the power of Israel to simply bomb the entire Palestinian state flat. The current rhetoric is that captives are as good as dead anyway and so a short, intense aerial campaign of area bombing is taking place.
Israel doesn't appear to possess any heavy bombers but given the range of missions, I imagine they are capable of essentially carpet bombing all infrastructure.
Then, I'm not sure if they WILL bother with a ground invasion. It doesn't sound like those Palestinian areas have reserves of water, let alone food or medicines.
Sadly, the Arabic neighbours have been using Palestine to fight a proxy-war (having lost multiple 'hot wars' with Israel) and I suspect the plan it simply to eradicate Palestine physically and then allow survivors to seek safety in said Arab nations.
It's hardly a secret that successive Israeli governments have promoted nationalism and faith, combining the two as a flag to rally around.
I don't think this is going to be the long conflict many people believe it will be. The emergency 'unity government' is promoting the Hezbollah attacks as an existential threat and Israel does rather try to ensure that such threats are entirely destroyed.
A lot of innocent Palestinian civilians are going to die but more importantly to Israel, Palestine is essentially going to be wiped off the face of the earth.
I'm not purposefully being unemotional or stoic. I'm merely someone who has been watching the conflict for over 50 years and the Hezbollah attacks have fed right into the hands of Israel's political needs.
I'm sure Russia will have provided aid as it's just another proxy war with the US but I'm 100% certain that US back-channels will be stating 'if it is to be done, let it be done fast'.
Las Veghost grower
Bluelighter
If I’m not mistaken Israel isn’t exactly innocent in all this either, haven’t the displaced a bunch of Palestinians, and their military polices palestinian areas, which I’m pretty sure is done not so fairly, blocking them in and flooding the areas with drugs…I don’t agree with how Hamas is going about this attack as far as killing civilians, but haven’t they been egging this on for a while now ?
AlsoTapered
Bluelighter
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