Israel is under attack

[mal3volent]

I don’t believe hammas accounts but I also don’t believe Israel’s or Americas.
They’re all full of shit

The man who wrote the article is from West Point and an expert in International Law. He describes Israel's warning efforts to minimize civilian casualties the "gold standard".

If you can find an example of a war where one side did more to warn the civilians on the other side, please let me know.

 

[Soso78]

The man who wrote the article is from West Point and an expert in International Law. He describes Israel's warning efforts to minimize civilian casualties the "gold standard".

If you can find an example of a war where one side did more to warn the civilians on the other side, please let me know.

The warning is pointless if there’s nowhere for them to go ,
It’s the gold standard for fuckin people over “legally”

 

[mal3volent]

The warning is pointless if there’s nowhere for them to go ,
It’s the gold standard for fuckin people over “legally”

you didn't read the article

 

[Buzz Lightbeer]

An article from a distinguished scholar from the Military Academy at West Point and Professor of International Law:

ISRAEL – HAMAS 2023 SYMPOSIUM – THE IDF, HAMAS, AND THE DUTY TO WARN​

by Michael N. Schmitt | Oct 27, 2023

Concluding Thoughts

Without more facts, it is too early to say whether the IDF has complied with the obligation to warn in every case. However, there is no question that the IDF’s warnings practice, in general, is the gold standard. Indeed, as a matter of policy, the IDF typically exceeds what the law requires. It is likewise clear that its warning to evacuate northern Gaza constitutes an “effective warning,” as that concept is understood in IHL.

This is in sharp contrast to Hamas’s failure to provide any warnings to the civilian population of Gaza and its efforts to neutralize the effectiveness of the IDF’s. That Hamas has violated its own warning obligation under IHL is simply indisputable.

Link to full article:

Israel – Hamas 2023 Symposium – The IDF, Hamas, and the Duty to Warn - Lieber Institute West Point

Under IHL both Israel and Hamas have the duty to warn civilians before attacks. Whilst Israel has tried to warn civilians, Hamas has not.

lieber.westpoint.edu

Here is information on the author of the article. It is important to know context and what your sources are when posting articles. Much better than random regurgitation from Wikipedia.

Michael N. Schmitt is the G. Norman Lieber Distinguished Scholar at the United States Military Academy at West Point. He is also Professor of Public International Law at the University of Reading and Professor Emeritus and Charles H. Stockton Distinguished Scholar-in-Residence at the United States Naval War College.

Come on, written 27th of October

 

[Buzz Lightbeer]

Like what was the shooting from last week? So many dead and injured?

If what they did early on is the gold standard then they should be held to the high standard. They have all the weapons and all the power, and yet these massive scandals continue to appear.

But they're not being held to any standard at all, what really happens is that the Israeli government just lies about what happened and the next week you have mal here proclaiming how good of a job they've been doing.

You can support Israel in their cause, which should be to live safely and happily, but also stop and realize that many unacceptable things have been happening that might actually be cause to put a full stop to things. Instead of just ignoring everything and pinning it all 100% on Hamas.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I can't speak for anyone else, but my position the entire war had been not much more than expressing Israeli historical legitimacy as a nation and their right to defend themselves vs well funded Islamic terrorism. I really have not said anything beyond that, other than my own inane psychosemantic ramblings on the meaning of violence in a chaotic universe.

I don't think anyone here has ever cheered on what's happening to innocent lives in Palestine.

I wish they'd chill the fuck out, because after awhile it seemed like bloodlust and not ""honorable"" // """"""justified"""""" war retaliation.

 

[mal3volent]

Like what was the shooting from last week? So many dead and injured?

Have you read any alternative accounts of what happened there and why? Just curious.

If what they did early on is the gold standard then they should be held to the high standard. They have all the weapons and all the power, and yet these massive scandals continue to appear.

You say scandals. Others would say "shit happens during war". I guess it depends on each individual circumstance. But literally no one here has said the IDF is perfect. If these scandals are investigated and some action needs to be taken against the individuals responsible, then that is a separate issue. But what often happens is that some tragic thing happens and that is used as justification to condemn the entire operation. That is not sound logic.

The number one moral imperative here is to eradicate the death cult with as little collateral damage as possible. I have provided a credible, authoritative source that seems to think Israel took impressive steps to mitigate as much as they could. I continue to ask-- why hasn't the world rallied around an effort to put pressure on Hamas to release the hostages? There are levers that could be pulled, people who could be influenced. But the UN won't even vote to condemn the attacks on Oct 7. They had employees who participated in them.

Instead of just ignoring everything and pinning it all 100% on Hamas.

We shouldn't ignore anything, but there is nothing that will change the fact that this is fundamentally the fault of Hamas. The death, the suffering, all of it. That is what they wanted.

 

[Buzz Lightbeer]

Have you read any alternative accounts of what happened there and why? Just curious.

Of course, I read the first Israeli account, then the adjusted second and ultimately the third and final, which they seem to stick with.
They have now all been debunked.

I have provided a credible, authoritative source that seems to think Israel took impressive steps to mitigate as much as they could.

On october 27th

I continue to ask-- why hasn't the world rallied around an effort to put pressure on Hamas to release the hostages? There are levers that could be pulled, people who could be influenced. But the UN won't even vote to condemn the attacks on Oct 7. They had employees who participated in them.

The world has rallied, the whole West stopped delivering aid to UNWRA. What are these so called levers that the West can pull that Israel can't? Everyone is saying immediate ceasefire and release of all hostages, almost every western country.

The UN did condemn too, just not unanimously, so what that means nothing. "the UN didn't condemn" is such an empty statement, it can mean 150 different things and will be right sometimes and wrong all the other.

 

[Buzz Lightbeer]

You say scandals. Others would say "shit happens during war". I guess it depends on each individual circumstance

You can't just starve half a million people, shoot 100 them while trying to not starve and say shit happens.

Everyone is trying to get aid to them, even the US, and Israel just says "fuck off, not getting in". So everyone has been forced to airdrop stuff.

Is this "shit happens during war"? Israel refuses on the premise that some Hamas fighters will have some food and thus will continue fighting, as a result there are 500k people starving.

 

[mal3volent]

They have now all been debunked.

As I said, yes, horrific things happen during war. Many things that no one will ever know, too... But I have not seen sufficient evidence that it has been debunked. Open to being persuaded though, of course.

Everyone is trying to get aid to them, even the US, and Israel just says "fuck off, not getting in". So everyone has been forced to airdrop stuff.

Is this "shit happens during war"? Israel refuses on the premise that some Hamas fighters will have some food and thus will continue fighting, as a result there are 500k people starving.

Um, the airdrops are being coordinated BY Israel. Why are you pretending as though that isn't the case?

 

[mal3volent]

What are these so called levers that the West can pull that Israel can't? Everyone is saying immediate ceasefire and release of all hostages, almost every western country.

Financial implications for the leaders of Hamas. Sanctions against countries that provide support to them.

 

[arrall]

Isn't that convenient? Now you two love birds don't have to defend your positions...
@arrall likes a comment saying I'm okay with kids getting killed
my, my. I don't think I'm the one being hostile....

I don’t understand why you are so supportive of a country where it is illegal for you to get married.
Yes, you would not even be allowed to marry your partner in “the only democracy in the Middle East.”

Food for thought - there might be a reason that someone who has both been to said ethnostate and belongs to the preferential ethnicity of said ethnostate is still strongly opposing the actions and apartheid structure of said ethnostate.

You’re welcome to ignore my DMs while exhibiting ridiculous hostility here over fucking politics.

But at least take a few minutes to read what I just said over and think about why you are doing so.

And yes, your positions here do imply that you have no issue with kids being killed.

Let’s say that ISIS took over an American children’s hospital containing 30,717 people, 40% of whom were below the age of 18.
They killed a few hundred Americans before taking over the hospital, and are firing crudely made rockets at rural America that are killing very few people.
Would you support
A) levelling the hospital, killing over 30,000 civilians inside and wounding 72,156 in the surrounding area
B) Finding another way to resolve the situation that doesn’t kill or wound 100,000 Americans.

I’d imagine that you would answer B.
Why do you think that is?

The fact that Hamas used their millions of dollars in aid money to build an underground terrorist infrastructure instead of civilian bomb shelters is actually disgusting. Not to mention how they've been hoarding food and supplies for themselves.

Any evidence for these claims?
All I’ve seen are blatant propaganda videos where the “Palestinians” are dressed in immaculately clean clothing and speak in perfect English.

 

[arrall]

I can't speak for anyone else, but my position the entire war had been not much more than expressing Israeli historical legitimacy as a nation and their right to defend themselves vs well funded Islamic terrorism. I really have not said anything beyond that, other than my own inane psychosemantic ramblings on the meaning of violence in a chaotic universe.

I don't think anyone here has ever cheered on what's happening to innocent lives in Palestine.

I wish they'd chill the fuck out, because after awhile it seemed like bloodlust and not ""honorable"" // """"""justified"""""" war retaliation.

As an anti-Zionist and a Jew, we mostly agree.

Israel does not have a right to exist in its current form, but it has a right to exist as a secular, actually democratic state that stops building illegal settlements in the West Bank and blocking medication, water purification tablets, and food from entering Gaza.

Israel does not have the right to commit genocide against 30,000 people, but it does have the right to defend itself against terrorism. However, slaughtering thousands of civilians is not “self-defence”.

 

[mal3volent]

You’re welcome to ignore my DMs while exhibiting ridiculous hostility here over fucking politics.

And yes, your positions here do imply that you have no issue with kids being killed.

I can't believe I'm having to tell an administrator this, but please, for the third time, stop airing out personal drama between us out in public. It's super inappropriate and a bad look for the both of us to be doing so. I have not been one bit hostile with you in this thread, not any more so than I have been with nepalnt or soso or Buzz or someguy etc. I'm talking my opinions on Israel here nothing else. You're the one that came in talking about private shit so please fucking stop already.

I think it shows a massive maturity gap that those of us on this side have never once implied that any of you are okay with Israeli babies being burned, or women being raped, or Jews having their heads crudely cut off with shovels and machetes...but you can say with a straight face that we don't mind kids being killed.

It's just more emotional manipulation. If you write me off as a person who is okay with kids being killed then you don't have to address the substance of the issues.

I don’t understand why you are so supportive of a country where it is illegal for you to get married.
Yes, you would not even be allowed to marry your partner in “the only democracy in the Middle East.”

Where do I even start with this? Ok I suppose I'll start off with saying that even IF everything you just said were true, Israel would still be an infinitely more secular, progressive society than the ones the Palestinians were forced to endure. But what you said isn't true actually. At the very least it is extremely misleading. You failed to mention that gay marriages have been recognized in Israel since 2006. Way before even the United States and many other countries.

Now homosexuals can even marry online without traveling out of the country. Israel's court system upheld their right to do that. Do you think that sounds better than being shoved off a tall building or being publicly executed? I sure do! And thanks for bringing up that subject so everyone can know the differences between those two cultures!

Food for thought - there might be a reason that someone who has both been to said ethnostate and belongs to the preferential ethnicity of said ethnostate is still strongly opposing the actions and apartheid structure of said ethnostate.

Food for thought-- when over a 25% of a country's population is non-Jewish, it is not a Jewish "ethnostate". There are proportionally more Arabs living in Israel than Hispanics/Latinos living in the United States. Arabs have representation in the Israeli government. Is everything perfect for them there? Absolutely not. But again, let's highlight the difference between the situation there and the situation in nearby Arabic countries. How many Jews live in Iran, or Yemen? Pakistan? Do Jews have political representation there? Hard to even type that without chuckling.

Let’s say that ISIS took over an American children’s hospital containing 30,717 people, 40% of whom were below the age of 18.
They killed a few hundred Americans before taking over the hospital, and are firing crudely made rockets at rural America that are killing very few people.
Would you support
A) levelling the hospital, killing over 30,000 civilians inside and wounding 72,156 in the surrounding area
B) Finding another way to resolve the situation that doesn’t kill or wound 100,000 Americans.

I’d imagine that you would answer B.
Why do you think that is?

There is so much wrong with this analogy it's hard for me to even entertain. As I already said when someone else asked something similar: a government's first priority should be to protect IT'S OWN citizens. That is literally their job, and that is exactly why Israel went to war with Hamas.

In your ridiculous scenario you've shrunken the land area to operate any potential military operation from the size of Gaza (141 square miles) to the size of a large hospital (according to the internet the largest hospital in the United States is approximately 9.5 million sq feet which is equivalent to 0.34 square miles-- a 99.7% reduction, nice!). Not to mention the added logistical difficulties of everything being indoors with only a few points of entry.

But what's even more ridiculous than all of that is that you clearly do not comprehend the difference between two governments being engaged in war with each other and one government trying to save the lives of its OWN citizens from terrorists who have taken over a hospital within their own country. The moral, legal, and strategic implications are totally different.

In your scenario the people in danger didn't vote for and overwhelmingly express approval of ISIS as Palestinians did for Hamas. That is also important to remember when considering the civilian adults. There probably wouldn't be any patients in the hospital with ties to ISIS, either-- the same couldn't be said when it comes to Palestinian civilian ties to Hamas.

So yes, with ALL of that out of the way, in your absurd scenario, I would choose to find another option rather than leveling the entire hospital. But sorry-- just to point out one more ridiculous inconsistency with this metaphor... If Israel had chosen the equivalent of "leveling the hospital" in your metaphor , there would be 2.4 million dead not 30,000. You know, just one tiny little discrepancy there.

 

[arrall]

Now homosexuals can even marry online without traveling out of the country. Israel's court system upheld their right to do that. Do you think that sounds better than being shoved off a tall building or being publicly executed? I sure do! And thanks for bringing up that subject so everyone can know the differences between those two cultures!

Which cultures are you comparing?
Believe it or not, not all of the world’s 1.8 billion Muslims hold the same views on gay marriage.
I guess “Muslims bad” is an easier viewpoint for the mind of an American to grasp, though.

Also, “what about [other Muslim country]” does not make Israel’s gay marriage policy okay. You should be able to get married in 2024 without jumping through extra hoops.

I’d also encourage you to look into the behaviour of IDF units like 8200, which is known for harassing and blackmailing queer Palestinian civilians according to former soldiers.

I can't believe I'm having to tell an administrator this, but please, for the third time, stop airing out personal drama between us out in public. It's super inappropriate and a bad look for the both of us to be doing so. I have not been one bit hostile with you in this thread, not any more so than I have been with nepalnt or soso or Buzz or someguy etc. I'm talking my opinions on Israel here nothing else. You're the one that came in talking about private shit so please fucking stop already.

My point here is that you have gone off the deep end over Israel of all things and seem hellbent on taking everything here personally.
I am genuinely concerned about your well-being at this point.

Food for thought-- when over a 25% of a country's population is non-Jewish, it is not a Jewish "ethnostate". There are proportionally more Arabs living in Israel than Hispanics/Latinos living in the United States. Arabs have representation in the Israeli government. Is everything perfect for them there? Absolutely not. But again, let's highlight the difference between the situation there and the situation in nearby Arabic countries. How many Jews live in Iran, or Yemen? Pakistan? Do Jews have political representation there? Hard to even type that without chuckling.

An ethnostate is a state in which the government is dominated by the interests of a single ethnic group.
Israel would give me automatic citizenship due to Jewish ethnicity despite not having any ancestral ties to the region within the past couple thousand years.
Many Palestinians and their offspring, who actually have a claim to that region, aren’t even able to enter the country.
That is an ethnostate.

During slavery, slaves outnumbered non-slaves in South Carolina and Mississippi. Does this mean that those states weren’t ethnostates?

a government's first priority should be to protect IT'S OWN citizens

My point here is that over 10,000 Palestinian children dying is insignificant to you because you do not see their lives as valuable.
You would never say the same thing if they were Americans.
If a school shooter takes over an American school and is holding people hostage, we don’t level the school.

Furthermore, Israel has killed countless Israelis being held hostage by Hamas through their current strategy. Even their own citizens are dying en masse.

In your ridiculous scenario you've shrunken the land area to operate any potential military operation from the size of Gaza (141 square miles) to the size of a large hospital (according to the internet the largest hospital in the United States is approximately 9.5 million sq feet which is equivalent to 0.34 square miles-- a 99.7% reduction, nice!). Not to mention the added logistical difficulties of everything being indoors with only a few points of entry.

You’re missing the point here.
Replace it with a 141 square mile area and you still will do all the mental gymnastics you can to avoid caring about the lives of Palestinian children.

two governments being engaged in war with each other and one government trying to save the lives of its OWN citizens from terrorists who have taken over a hospital within their own country. The moral, legal, and strategic implications are totally different.

Calling this a war is laughable.
This is a slaughter.
It’s a war in the same way as an Israeli tank shooting a Palestinian child holding a rock is a war.
Or shooting 150 unarmed civilians over a box of flour.

save the lives of its OWN citizens

okay, what if they weren’t US citizens? Is it fine to kill them all now in your eyes?

If Israel had chosen the equivalent of "leveling the hospital" in your metaphor , there would be 2.4 million dead not 30,000. You know, just one tiny little discrepancy there.

Killing or wounding 100,000 civilians is evidence of indiscriminate violence.
Israeli snipers are intentionally killing journalists and children with no conflict or terrorists in sight.
Israel clearly has the technology to not kill this many civilians, to not kill children inside of cars, to not kill paramedics, to not kill people trying to get a bag of flour.
They do this anyways because they want the land for themselves.
I fail to see how the fact that Israel has not yet succeeded in its goal of ethnically cleansing the region means that it must not be trying to.
You don’t harm that many civilians accidentally.

In your scenario the people in danger didn't vote for and overwhelmingly express approval of ISIS as Palestinians did for Hamas. That is also important to remember when considering the civilian adults. There probably wouldn't be any patients in the hospital with ties to ISIS, either-- the same couldn't be said when it comes to Palestinian civilian ties to Hamas

Palestinians voted for Hamas nearly 20 years ago after Israel repeatedly blocked piece attempts, causing Hamas to balloon from a fringe group to taking government while Arafat lost control of the region.
Israel also backed and funded fundamentalist groups in the region in order to sow instability.

It’s the classic American playbook that you should be familiar with. Prop up and support an authoritarian far-right government, then punish the country’s civilians for said government existing.

The US voted for Trump in 2016. I think that it’s pretty clear that people will vote for authoritarian governments in times of crisis.
It doesn’t mean that we should be punishing civilians for this decades later.

 

[mal3volent]

My point here is that you have gone off the deep end over Israel of all things and seem hellbent on taking everything here personally.
I am genuinely concerned about your well-being at this point.

@Tronica @TheLoveBandit @Mysterier

can someone PLEASE make him stop? How many times do I have to ask him?

 

[mal3volent]

I guess “Muslims bad” is an easier viewpoint for the mind of an American to grasp, though.

As easy as "Americans bad" for a Canadian, right?
I've never once said Muslims are bad.
I said Islam as a whole has been slower than the other major religions to modernize their religion.
That is an indisputable fact.

 

[mal3volent]

My point here is that over 10,000 Palestinian children dying is insignificant to you because you do not see their lives as valuable.
You would never say the same thing if they were Americans.

you still will do all the mental gymnastics you can to avoid caring about the lives of Palestinian children.

I can't believe you've sunken to this level.
You are absolutely incapable of participating in a civil dialogue.

 

[-=SS=-]

 

[Jnowhere]

Anyone with a cell phone and a one with a camera could record these deaths. But they are not. Because they are lies. Besides Israel has shown more restraint in killing than Obama did. I am not a ghoul but those number are inflated and no proof. Also the Hamas and other fighters against Israel don't count in the innocent civilian death toll. I am not some ghoul but if the number of innocent dead were even close to that we would see pictures and videos.
Oh so a group run by the terrorists is the reliable source of the innocent dead.
I would say you should, until otherwise proven take a zero off that death toll and start subtracting or take a fraction of that, until otherwise proven. Oh by the way this a fucking war, people die. Do you care about the millions that died in the Congo wars in the late nineties and early 2000's. Where is that outrage? and that horrible shit might start again and the world( most of it will ignore it and not care, it sickens me). No body cares, what about Black Lives Matter? Apparently in their hypocritical minds, poor black African lives don't matter.