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Bupe Is this how bupe is supposed to work?

What was shocking was pissing hot for almost a month.

It honestly wouldn't surprise me, the rehabs here aren't able to test for fentanyl, but it would make sense as volume of distribution increases with prolonged fentanyl use and how inefficiently our bodies process it out, that tests could come up positive for a lengthy amount of time. I never really knew if the amounts would exceed the cut-off levels. Do you by chance know what levels were detected if done by GC/MS, I've been curious about this for some time now.
 
My suboxone doc tested me with a standard (?) pee in a cup test that tested positive for fentanyl and oxycodone (?) for that period of time, though I never touched oxycodone. Not sure what that was about. It wasn't confirmed by labs, and from what he told me it's not uncommon for people who use fentanyl chronically to test positive for a long period of time.
 
Makes sense. Odd about oxycodone. On a slightly interesting subject in regards to that, my urine used to test positve for oxycodone, like minuscule amount (less than 60) with lab GC/MS, and I hadn't touched oxycodone either. My doctor of course didn't believe me, and I'm still baffled to this day about it. That happened for almost 5 consecutive months.
 
The Bernese method sounds pretty good to me, but what I don't understand yet is how fentanyl can interfer with it - having a higher affinity than bupe should rather mean that there is no or much less precipitated withdrawal because bupe can't displace the fent.. as the half life of fent passes and it becomes metabolized out, the bupe will take over - this will create kind of a crash but it should be less than either regular precipitated wd (because metabolism is a slow, steady process vs. the almost instant 0 to 100 onset of a new substance after it reaches the receptors) or skipping a dose of fent (because you'll only go gradually down to the partial agonism of bupe instead to zero).

But read before that with some of these fents it is horribly difficult to switch to bupe and I'm glad that I threw my sample of butyr-fent away.. Still wondering if this is the whole thing or whether we have novel derivates with kappa agonism involved which the buprenorphine blocks and thus would out kappa agonists on a sudden turkey. Or these other, lesser known receptors like nociceptin (admittedly, I know less about it yet.)

Some brave individual should try memantine, or other nmda antagonists to help with the transition to bupe. For the usual opiates like morphine they can take much up to almost all symptoms besides diarrhea, for which we have loperamide. If these fents should be too strong for the nmdaa's to work, they might still give you more time to let the body removing these fents and then just titrate the bupe up and when you feel fine again, taper down both. You could use the nmda antag just for the transition or keep it for longer to help with the withdrawal and PAWS like symptoms (anhedonia, fatigue etc).

As bupe is administered subligually, a solution for volumetric dosing would make sense. Maybe go even ower than 0.125mg - if we think of naltrexone, which is used as ultra-low at doses 50 times less the usual starting dose. So maybe even as little as 0.04mg (4mg pill dissolved in 20ml, and use 200ul - just an example, don't have any syringe handy or dropper right now to check the usual amounts of doses), administer sublingually or with a nasal spray (benefit of faster absorption, with the goal to find a dose which is below threshold this doesn't hurt but avoids you quite a bit of waiting time in between the doses). Wait 15min or so, next one. Until you feel some discomfort but still in the range you can live with. Then wait.. after some hours, repeat.

Don't know, how long does usual precipitated withdrawal last? Is this a thing of some hours or even days? Depending on the half life of the previously taken opioid or less/not (so that e.g. fent would be very intense but short lasted, and methadone less extreme but lasting for more than a day).

But as always, not intended to diagnose treat cure or prevent any disease - it's plain theory at the moment.
Good luck anyways :)
Hi man,

That
 
It's two different components. It does have a short half-life and needs more frequent dosing to achieve what would be considered clinical efficacy, or being able to get desired effects. The component that contributes to precipitated withdrawals, is imagine having a slow drip of fentanyl from tissues back into your bloodstream, long after the effects wear off. The amounts are too tiny to aid in withdrawals, but enough to bind to receptors and cause precipitated withdrawals. This only becomes noticeable with continued and prolonged use, so if you use it here and there, you may not notice the issue with precipitated withdrawals as mentioned here. And since the "drip" is so slow, it can create agonizing precipitated withdrawals for long periods of time.
This might be helpful and it works. It’s a modified Bernese method. I have a sub doctor but they’re pretty clueless with the science of induction. Typical response is “wait 18 hrs until you feel like sh*t and take your sub.” They think it’s that simple. One time I waited 36 hours and tried 2mgs and went into PWD in 5 mins. Be careful bc you don't know what fent or fent analogue you have and sometimes can linger in your body much longer that pure fent. I’ve been playing around with how to induct subs quicker without the PWD and this is what works for me. You’ll need (1) suboxone and (2) a strong full agonist opioid (opana, fent pills, fent powder, etc.).

As a caution - this is what works for ME and could be different depending on your individual chemistry.

If you’ve been on a binge (weeks or months) Pick a target date you want to fully transition. The last two to three days I’ll take a small amount of suboxone (.5mgs). Take the sub (and remember you have your receptors full with your choice of opioid). I wait 30-45 mins until you feel PWD come on (and trust me you'll freakin' feel it). When that happens, I’ll take a bump of the full agonist and PWD goes away. 1-3 hours later I’ll do the same but with a higher dose of sub (1mg). Again, wait until you start feeling the subs fight for the receptors and take your full agonist again. You can do this a couple more times throughout the day and then repeat the next day and so on. You’ll notice the effects of the full agonist get weaker and weaker the more sub you have in your system (unless you’re doing massive doses of full agonists which is counter to your objective). I think what’s going on is the subs will rip out the fent from the receptors which causes PWD. But then when you take the fent it bumps out some or most of the subs and stops the PWDs. Since subs half life is super long, you’ll gradually build up a decent dose of sub floating around your system. So when you’re ready to transition to subs, it’ll be much smoother since the subs is replacing the fent once it metabolizes and leaves the receptors (it's not doing so violently). This way, after your last full agonist dose, you’ll have subs already in your system and won’t experience much, if any, WD and don’t have to wait 24-72hrs to induce suboxone. I’m still playing around with the protocol but it seems to be doing the trick. Just always make sure to have a strong full agonist opioid on hand while you’re adjusting protocol to save you from the PWDs. Again, this works for me, it might not work for everyone so feel free to try this, BUT DO IT AT YOUR OWN RISK. Hope this helps and please share because this method is not widely known about and it can help many people.
 
@Playernm3 The mechanism of what you're suggesting is called Rapid Opioid Detoxification and usually requires general anesthesia and close medical monitoring. It's a valid method to force the opioids off the receptors (for certain opioids - fentanyl wouldn't apply here because of how it keeps coming into the bloodstream via the tissues) but needs to be done with extreme care and should be managed by a medical professional.
 
@Playernm3 The mechanism of what you're suggesting is called Rapid Opioid Detoxification and usually requires general anesthesia and close medical monitoring. It's a valid method to force the opioids off the receptors (for certain opioids - fentanyl wouldn't apply here because of how it keeps coming into the bloodstream via the tissues) but needs to be done with extreme care and should be managed by a medical professional.
With ROD aren't they using Naloxone (narcan)? They pretty much put you under general anesthesia, then administer naloxone and other comfort drugs. I’m talking about bupe with a full agonist (H, fent, oxy) NOT antagonist. In ROD because your under GA and getting comfort drugs you’re not getting any full opioid agonists to offset the precipitated WD. I’ve looked into this crap when I was recovering and it’s too dangerous and sketchy. Please read my method again as it has legs since there’s no harm or PWD bc you’re offsetting it with dope. I think you thought I was talking about naloxone.

I’m trying to helpsince everywhere I go here I see people complaining about precipitated WD because they have no idea how to induce suboxone. This works so please don’t shoot it down without either trying it or thinking through the pharmacology
 
With ROD aren't they using Naloxone (narcan)?

Yes, same mechanism, different method. Naloxone and/or naltrexone, typically, naltrexone being the better option in my opinion. I'm by no means shooting it down, I mentioned it's a valid method, but it does require care. I do understand the pharmacodynamics of what you're suggesting :)

The important distinction is this method is not appropriate for fentanyl withdrawal, so that absolutely needs to be addressed, with the current situation of the markets.
 
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Yes, same mechanism, different method. I'm by no means shooting it down, I mentioned it's a valid method, but it does require care. I do understand the pharmacodynamics of what you're suggesting :)

The important distinction is this method is not appropriate for fentanyl withdrawal, so that absolutely needs to be addressed.
I noticed this mechanism when I took fent while on suboxone. Even though subs affinity to the mu receptor is 200x what morphine is, fent and H can still kick it out once it’s already binded. I was also exploring taking the naloxone shot but was sure I still had opioids in my receptors so that would have been an ER visit. My doc told me that once naloxone is bound to the receptors, only a good dose of IV fent can knock it out and break the PWD.

With ROA the goal is to detox you as fast as possible. The method I described is to slowly build up suboxone in your system without PWD. And every time you administer the bupe (which is only a partial agonist), you break those bindings with fent (I snort it). You essentially keep doing this until you have enough subs in your system. The fent analogues that are hiding in you fat or organs can’t displace the free suboxone. I’ve seen studies on the Bernese method but not this. I think the scientific community thinks suboxone is so strong that it can’t be displaced by a regular opioid once bound. It would be cool to see this performed bc if we can induce suboxone better, faster and without pains, lots of people wouldn’t be out there dying.
 
@Playernm3 Have you ever read research into LDN or ULDN (low dose naloxone or ultra low dose naloxone) therapy? Somewhat similar concept, to displace the current opioids currently bound. Your goal is to transition to buprenorphine once that is done, the goal of LDN and ULDN to do nothing once the opioids are displaced and gone - and it actually helps reverse tolerance in the process. Fentanyl can displace buprenorphine from the mu-opioid receptors, I've never seen any evidence to show diacetylmorphine is able to. The one thing I'll just quickly mention in regards to using it for fentanyl withdrawal, is that you can rapidly bump out the fentanyl from the receptors, but as the body processes from the tissues back to the bloodstream, they will keep binding to the receptors. So you would need to target the elimination speed in the tissues for fentanyl, specifically.
 
@Playernm3 Have you ever read research into LDN or ULDN (low dose naloxone or ultra low dose naloxone) therapy? Somewhat similar concept, to displace the current opioids currently bound. Your goal is to transition to buprenorphine once that is done, the goal of LDN and ULDN to do nothing once the opioids are displaced and gone - and it actually helps reverse tolerance in the process. Fentanyl can displace buprenorphine from the mu-opioid receptors, I've never seen any evidence to show diacetylmorphine is able to. The one thing I'll just quickly mention in regards to using it for fentanyl withdrawal, is that you can rapidly bump out the fentanyl from the receptors, but as the body processes from the tissues back to the bloodstream, they will keep binding to the receptors. So you would need to target the elimination speed in the tissues for fentanyl, specifically.
I’ll look into it @Deru Can you message me about the last part you mentioned? Or just reply here but at this point we’ve hijacked the thread
 
That's actually what we were discussing here in this thread. If you read my earlier posts in this thread, I posted a bunch of links to articles and studies in regards to that, for the issue with fentanyl specifically and transitioning to buprenorphine because of it's increased volume of distribution into the tissues and slow elimination. Canada dedicated a lot of research to it because of the huge fentanyl problem there, and sometimes the doctors even recommend to continue use of full agonists opioids, similar to what you suggested.
 
I recently lost my job due to failed drug test and failed for diacetylmorphine, I don’t know if fent was in it too but not tested for, but I know my test showed up positive for heroin specifically...maybe fent just hasn’t made it was to Vegas yet
 
I recently lost my job due to failed drug test and failed for diacetylmorphine, I don’t know if fent was in it too but not tested for, but I know my test showed up positive for heroin specifically...maybe fent just hasn’t made it was to Vegas yet

My condolences ... fuck I'm glad I don't live where you do.
 
I love Vegas, if I’m gonna do heroin I’d rather it really be heroin, not a random mixture of fent

I live in UK .. and we don't have the fent problem anymore since the Chinese route shut down. Sure there's a bit .. but you ain't gonna be making carfent in a backroom lab .. one tiny droplet on your skin and your dead. You need a proper lab and probably clean room. Now all I need is a job tranquilising rhino's .. and I'll be set for life.
 
Just realised I may have given unintended offence there. Condolenscenes were for the scourge of getting sacked by a stupid bloody fascist blood / urine test.

Personally you couldn't pay me to live in vegas, but each to their own. Doesn't mean I'm a better or worse person with better or worse taste than you .. I'm just different.

If I'm blabbering unnecessarily then apologies. Just bounced off two days of WD and I'm a little off centre. You know how it goes.

Probably start crying about that tamagochi I had 20 years ago next ...
 
Just realised I may have given unintended offence there. Condolenscenes were for the scourge of getting sacked by a stupid bloody fascist blood / urine test.

Personally you couldn't pay me to live in vegas, but each to their own. Doesn't mean I'm a better or worse person with better or worse taste than you .. I'm just different.

If I'm blabbering unnecessarily then apologies. Just bounced off two days of WD and I'm a little off centre. You know how it goes.

Probably start crying about that tamagochi I had 20 years ago next ...
All good man, for a second I was thinking “wait, is he talkin shit about Vegas” I have to admit Vegas is a 24/7 town so whenever I go somewhere and wallmart or gas stations are closed after 10 it blows my mind, plus can’t gamble at gas stations I don’t think I could live anywhere but Vegas tbh, unless I have a kid then I’m moving out of Vegas fast ha
 
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