N&PD Moderators: Skorpio
Is there any interest in a chromatography guide for drug purification and analysis?
nuke
Bluelighter
As in the title; I'm thinking about writing one up sometime, oriented towards the home chemist and including data for the separation and analysis of phenylethylamines, tryptamines, and other common drugs. The goal would be to enable the home chemist, for a few hundred dollars, to be able to analyse, separate, and purify the drugs he or she possesses by chromatographic methods.
Incunabula
Bluelighter
I think a lot of people would be interested. I know I am
atara
Bluelighter
That would be awesome.
As an aside -- this does not fall under the "synthesis" rules.
Limpet_Chicken
Bluelighter
Definitely would be interested to read this if you find the time.
FunctionalOlfactio
Bluelighter
Few things could make me more optimistic about our society than peoples honest curiosity about the biology and chemistry of the chemicals we are putting in our bodies. Furthermore, I commend anyone who can see beyond the drug war propaganda of many English speaking countries, realize the overt justification for illegal drug policy lacks rational foundation, and desire to pursue a greater understanding of these things for themselves. Having said this It is my opinion that you should hold back on doing this Nuke for two reasons.
First, I am concerned about the consequences to Bluelight. This community has saved my life on multiple occasions and has provided a spring board for what might be the professional and academic course of the rest of my life. Resultantly I have a strong desire to ensure this community will be a solid resource for others long into the future. This forum, and most any forum on such topics, is heavily monitored by law enforcement and government agencies. These organizations observe, participate in, and utilize these forums in stings. They can, do, and will entrap such communities and their participants into behaviour that inevitably leads to their downfall if given the chance. Rhodium and Euphoric Knowledge are two examples of this. Given the reality that these agencies have limited resources I believe it wise to steer away from chemistry, vendors, and trading/selling so they realize the return on their investment will be better if they peruse other venues. The people with badges who browse these forums are also intelligent and independent people. If they see that we are honestly trying to be responsible and recognize the good this place does we might change a few opinions for the better. Ten years ago the majority L.E.O.s I met believed in gateway drug theory and that marijuana should be illegal. Now the majority of L.E.O.s I come into contact with support decriminalization or regulation and taxation of marijuana.
Secondly, if a person needs a guide to preform column chromatography they have not invested enough of their time to be doing so. Things can go wrong and the wrong product could be dangerous, fine silica (a common medium) is destructive if inadvertently inhaled, and the solvents involved can be harmful too. Most dangerous of all are the legal consequences. If a person gets caught with a chromatography column and a schedule one analogue they will probably get a production with intent to distribute charge. They wouldn't be producing and they might not be intending to distribute, but the law in most countries is not just in this regard. If it is important enough to a person to risk prison time then I believe it is rational to be patient and chose the legal route instead.
M.A.P.S. is currently advocating human research of psychedelics with success. With a college education many people legally study the chemistry and biology of a wide variety of chemicals. Personally I believe my energy is better invested in working with society legally to teach them what I know to be fact rather than impatiently pursuing or promoting half baked illegal chemistry.
I apologize for my blinding wall of text writing style. I know this can alienate more concise individuals, it is not my intent to do so. I rarely can get an idea out in less than half a page.
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http://www.shulginresearch.org
http://www.freeleonardpickard.org
http://www.maps.org
http://www.erowid.org
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Limpet_Chicken
Bluelighter
I take issue with the comment about if someone needs to read up on it to learn to do column, TLC etc. then they have no business using the tech in the first place.
What? do you think trained chemists are somehow 'hatched' with a column stuck up their arse? people who want a given item of knowledge must seek it somewhere at first. Rather than experiment and spend decades reinventing the wheel.
atara
Bluelighter
Rhodium just plain left. Nobody really knows what happened to him. The Hive disappeared because the owner ran a chemical supply company for clandestine chemists, which is a far cry from providing some information about analysis and purification.
Likewise, Euphoric Knowledge wasn't taken down for providing HR info, it was taken down because the admins used it as a front to sell drugs. Neither of those occurs here at bluelight: we've always enforced strict rules to keep this place from becoming a drug marketplace or a new incarnation of the Hive.
On the contrary, many fora, including the Shroomery, Dance Safe, DMT-Nexus, Grass City, reddit, and of course bluelight have provided information on purification and extraction of chemicals that does not delve into manufacture, transport and sale. This has a direct and immediate benefit to the safety of drug users, which is the primary goal of these websites.
Furthermore -- and the real point here -- nuke's book is not produced in collaboration with or with the endorsement (this post is not an endorsement) of the Bluelight staff. While I, personally, am happy to see it written, I'm pretty sure the other mods and admins would unanimously agree that we don't want this to be called a bluelight production, not least because no bluelight staff members are likely to significantly contribute to the intellectual content of the book.
FunctionalOlfactio said:
To some degree we have to assume we can trust nuke to be careful about what he recommends and to properly explain the risks of the procedures. He knows more about it than I do; I don't think it's unreasonable to expect he'll write a good book. It's unlikely anything involved in this will be much worse than, say, the use of NaOH in garage biodiesel manufacture, and there are books about this.
FunctionalOlfactio said:
You're complaining about illegal chemistry and you also campaign for the release of a guy who made millions off of it? 8(
FunctionalOlfactio
Bluelighter
Limpet_Chicken
"people who want a given item of knowledge must seek it somewhere at first. Rather than experiment and spend decades reinventing the wheel."
I agree with you on this point and apologize if my comment made it sound like I oppose the pursuit of knowledge and new skills. I strongly advocate people educating themselves fully and experimenting to better understand their environment. My concern is that chromatography and purification is a fairly advanced place to start. I think in order to do these things safely a strong background in organic chemistry and understanding the mechanics of what is going on at the atomic level is necessary. Without all of the background knowledge someone following a step by step type of technique could encounter something unexpected. If a variable were to change something dangerous might result and a novice might not be capable of identifying the mistake or dealing with the unexpected result safely. Some people are willing to take such risks. If you or others chose to so I do not find fault in you for your choice.
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http://www.shulginresearch.org
http://www.freeleonardpickard.org
http://www.maps.org
http://www.erowid.org
sekio
Bluelight Crew
Oh, please. By the same logic we should not publish guides to cold water extractions because people could, in theory, fuck it up. I'm all for this. The more knowledge that is out there, the better. (If you look, the UN publishes a guide for cocaine purification and purity analysis... now I wonder why they'd do that?)
Really? Do you think nuke's guide isn't going to cover this? Like, checking what gets eluted off the column with Marquis, maybe? Chromatography is not rocket surgery, it's one of the more primitive seperation techniques.
Btw, If you are inhaling chromatography silica you deserve what is coming to you. And AFAICT, nuke is a 'she' 
FunctionalOlfactio
Bluelighter
Atara
"Rhodium just plain left. Nobody really knows what happened to him. The Hive disappeared because the owner ran a chemical supply company for clandestine chemists, which is a far cry from providing some information about analysis and purification.
Likewise, Euphoric Knowledge wasn't taken down for providing HR info, it was taken down because the admins used it as a front to sell drugs. Neither of those occurs here at bluelight: we've always enforced strict rules to keep this place from becoming a drug marketplace or a new incarnation of the Hive."
In these situations I perceive a sort of jockeying by government agencies in control of sock puppet accounts orchestrating and facilitating cannibalizing behaviour in order to promote their objectives. I believe if a target lacks an easily exploited vulnerability they create one. In the case of forums I believe in the past this has been achieved by influencing and corrupting a high ranking participant. They then bust the high ranking participant effectively eliminating or crippling the forum. The public is never told the complete nature of undercover operations so the exploited flaw in the high ranking participant appears naturally emergent. In order to avoid this situation I believe it is important for Bluelight to remain the least desirable candidate for the investment of government resources. In this case by steering away from chemistry information that could be interpreted as facilitating the manufacture of controlled substances. By definition the foundation of my argument is a conspiracy theory, I recognize this. I can't provide anything other than circumstantial evidence for my opinion and I understand your perspective if you disagree.
"To some degree we have to assume we can trust nuke to be careful about what he recommends and to properly explain the risks of the procedures. He knows more about it than I do; I don't think it's unreasonable to expect he'll write a good book. It's unlikely anything involved in this will be much worse than, say, the use of NaOH in garage biodiesel manufacture, and there are books about this."
I can't vouch for Nukes chemistry competency, but I'll give Nuke the benefit of the doubt in this regard. I don't believe it's very safe to be doing this kind of thing without the equivalent of a couple years of college level organic chemistry. I am admittedly very conservative on this point. I'll explain why. When I was younger my group of friends used to smoke dabs (homemade THC extract). I only did this a couple of times. The rest of the group did this frequently in escalating doses. Many of them eventually became psychotic. Their language began to change and become fragmented. They began to be convinced the individual letters in words had meanings equivalent to words and speak in bizarre coded language. They eventually lost their identities and would spontaneously adopt the ideas and behaviours of others in a reflective fashion. I would have considered this simply eccentric, but it began to impair other parts of their life. Their perspective on reality got smaller and smaller until their life existed in a short window of mimicking others behaviour. They were completely incapable of seeing the big picture. It took the ones that recovered years to recover. Some did not recover. It was eventually discovered the marijuana they were using as a source had been grown with unethical practices. A containment from the hydroponic solution used was carried into the plant. This contaminant was then extracted and concentrated along with the THC in their dabs. An educated chemist would not have made this mistake. The ones that never recovered were victims of youth, ignorance, innocence, and marijuana prohibition. You may disagree with my high level of caution, but hopefully you at least understand my perspective.
"You're complaining about illegal chemistry and you also campaign for the release of a guy who made millions off of it?"
I'm not against people doing what is moral but illegal. The first hit of LSD I ever took likely came from one of Pickards' labs. If that man had not sacrificed his life doing what he did I would have gone the path of the people smoking the bad dabs. His sacrifice saved my life and many others in various ways. His sacrifice amongst others will be the reason this world one day wakes up to reality. I don't mind that he made money doing this either, there are of course more profitable black market ventures. I still chose to work with society legally. The way psychedelics have changed my life positively is objectively verifiable and repeatable. I can prove this to society and hopefully improve other peoples lives in the process. I prefer to work openly and honestly with society. The world saw the consequences of marijuana prohibition and is beginning to change its mind. I am confident the world can change its mind on psychedelics too. This is why I favour the legal route.
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http://www.shulginresearch.org
http://www.freeleonardpickard.org
http://www.maps.org
http://www.erowid.org
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nuke
Bluelighter
Chromatography is the best place to start if you're working with small quantities of compounds (ie aren't a huge manufacturer or something, but are rather a home user or doing research)
I have 4 years industry lab experience aside from the relevant degrees
There's no reason you have to use this stuff to do anything illegal -- that's up to the end user. There are plenty of totally legal things you can do with chromatography, so I really don't see this as a problem. Amorphous silica is also not dangerous, so there's nothing much to worry about there.
And yeah, she
FunctionalOlfactio
Bluelighter
I have the fewest number of post of anyone in this thread. I hope this community takes my opinion for what it's worth.
If you decide to go through with this I look forward to reading what you come up with Nuke.
SeenSoFar
Bluelighter
Post count doesn't equal intelligence or give relevance to what you say. No one who matters would judge you based on the fact that you're new to the forum. A person can be a moron and have a huge post count, they just have to toe the line and keep from getting banned. It doesn't mean that their posts contain anything of value. Conversely, someone who is new, you for example, can make valuable contributions to the site. Just because one may disagree with what you say doesn't mean one cannot see the logic in your thinking and the merit in your words.
While I disagree with your idea that a guide to chromatography will be the start of a slippery slope that leads to the undoing of this site (for reasons that have already been stated by others), I for one find it excellent that you stepped up and spoke out on an issue that you felt was important to the future of Bluelight. You presented your ideas rationally, you didn't get angry, and you didn't resort to ad hominem attacks. That's the kind of thing that makes a good Bluelighter. I look forward to seeing more of you.
@Nuke:
I await your guide with bated breath. I'm sure the guide will be informative, concise, and well-written, such is par for the course with you!
