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is the universe a computer? (split)

good question. it depends on what sort of computing machine, though some have argued that the inherent discreteness of physical quantities is evidence of us being a digital simulation, so i geuss thats one answer.

I think one would have to find something that's an obvious 'bug' in the 'code' of the universe to prove that we live in a simulation...

We are bound by the laws of physics, which make everything discrete at the fundamental level, but somehow we are still mentally able to form the idea of continuum. Also we are material beings but we still can form the idea of spiritual. (compare this with the difficulties a two-dimensional entity would have imagining a three dimensional space)

Suppose there's a real 'physical' universe, and our 'virtual' universe is just a simulation by a computer in the 'physical' universe. How could we get out of this simulation and into the real world? Only if one of the operators of the computer would allow that. Also, the laws of physics in the 'real' universe could be so different and unfamiliar that we could not interact meaningfully with the environment there...

This doesn't make any sense, sorry, I'm not sober right now...
 
Why are we still thinking there is a difference between reality and simulated reality? You can't break out of either unless they are of the same construction (in which case the lines between simulated and non-simulated become even more blurred), and the rules work the same in both, so far as I can see.

Anyway, IF you were living in a simulated universe, and you suspect that universe to be structured in such a way that it takes computational shortcuts, you'd use similar techniques as operating systems/software do to determine whether they are running in a virtualised computer. This has applicability in hypervisors, since you can circumvent security measures in computers by adding a layer "on top" of the OS (first thing loaded up then becomes the hypervisor, which then virtualises an environment for the OS - and up till recently, OSes have always assumed the "hardware" [not always!] they run on is kosher -this is complicated by the fact that you often DO want to run OSes virtualized!), so you can peek into and write over memory, replace I/O streams with fake ones, interfere with calculations, and other dastardly things.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootkit#Hypervisor_level
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Pill_(software)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timing_attack
http://www.eecs.umich.edu/virtual/papers/king06.pdf (SubVirt)
http://www.csc.ncsu.edu/faculty/jiang/pubs/CCS09_HookSafe.pdf (HookSafe)
 
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I've only got time for a short reply now, so I'll just reply to two sections :) .

re: transcendental numbers:
Transcendental numbers are infinitely recursive functions - that is, they never "bottom out" - they are unbounded loops (no base case), so you can never expand them fully. However, while it might seem at first that this strikes a deadly blow to digital physics (since computation of them where required would take infinite cycles), this isn't the case (I think, I'm not some absolutist [yet :) ] !). Here's why: let's examine pi (3.14 ...). Since this corresponds with a circle, that Platonic perfect form, we'll apply it to a implementation of a circle in matter in our conceived universe. Since the universe appears to be lumpy (and is required to be so for digital physics), you need only expand the set to the depth required to implement that ideal shape in substrate; if whilst expanding the set a further iteration does not affect the states of the cells within the diameter of the circle, then any further expansion is unnecessary, since the required resolution has been achieved. The same applies to the real number line, etc.

As for BQP class: I definitely agree with that were it required, however more where I was going is the question "are quantum phenomena real (as in, part of the construction necessarily), or merely a byproduct of the construction?". I don't have an answer to this question at all i'm afraid! I guess we need more research done. Perhaps we could find some conditions where vacuum/zero-point energy didn't exist, say: that would be fantastically useful evidence I think.

Also, hiphophippy, why so down on this thread? Personally, i've really enjoyed it, and hope others have too, for it's a fascinating topic. I hope I or others haven't offended somehow (even though if we have I see no real reason to stop discussion, it's hardly been personal) ? If you could explain the nature of your disagreement that could help.
 
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Pretty close; I think the two points might be one in the same. That's not to say I can't conceive of workable universes that DON'T have these behaviours, rather that I think that the particular way our one functions might be contingent on them. "it's not a bug, it's a feature"
This said, perhaps the implementation itself might not necessarily be quantum in nature, but rather that this behaviour arises out of it. Maybe they're equivalent, I don't know. Maybe i'm justr repeating myself in different guises, and/or we both have the same conceptions and don't realise it. The subtleties elude me. I'll think about it more when i'm not quite as stoned :o


On the transcendental numbers, again: While I think I did demonstrate the tractability of computation of seemingly noncomputable numbers to the requisite accuracy, I don't believe this is actually required in practice. Rather, they are emergent properties of the rules of the celluar automaton, much like other seemingly ridiculously complex systems that arise out of local rules. If we want another example of seemingly perfectly smooth (analog) systems, let's consider sound - digital versus analog. While it is true that analog sound has greater resolution than [current] digital sound (it's LESS lumpy, and will remain that we till we store our digital sound in universe-resolution state-change tables of amplitude - at which time the distinction becomes meaningless ;) ), so-called analog sound is still lumpy since it still depends on, at the base of it all, force interaction between atoms (air pressure, or the surface of a groove in a vinyl recording), and those force interactions are governed by exchanges of lumpy packets of energy. Quanta. So it's still lumpy.

My programming is all self-taught too i'm afraid, and my math is horrible. Perhaps there is a faster solution to the problems than the one I proposed. I'm too ignorant of possible methods to even suggest a avenue of investigation.

[stoned thoughts]This whole discussion reminds me so much of The Little Harmonic Labyrinth and Djinn And Tonic from Douglas Hofstadter's book Godel, Escher, Bach. Then again, I always fall into these worlds in this state. Heh.[/stoned thoughts]
 
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I think the universe is a model based on random variables and their multivariate probability distributions.
Eventually if a point encounters another point by random, they will rotate off each other forming a circle because of gravity. Now imagine this circle of two rotating points encounters another smaller circle which is recognized by the one dimensional force of gravity, that contains two points of a different environment. The circles will rotate on different axis with with a common center of origin in order to discover every potential combination until the system is satisfied. Then different points that are on different circles will be encountering each other at separate patterns pertaining to separate times that can be random variables assuming a certain probability distribution. Perhaps they could be sharing properties with each other as they begin to rotate in a familiar pattern.

Certain combinations of these random variables interacting with each other will create new information once the patterns become satisfied or consistent and less chaotic. As the patterns revolve around each other, new points are introduced and thus changing the sequence or mutating its design. Think of how many forces and elements to a certain strength and pattern it takes to make life when all these atoms and stars are all spinning and rotating. To be informed, something new has to enter into the mix which forms an entirely new model. (A hole is still something). If one is truly informed, their thoughts become chaotic to try and make sense of the new thought or realization. The thought then defines someone once they begin to invest interest and their thoughts and actions begin to gravitate towards it. Information is risky as it could contradict one of the basic building blocks of a system. To accept the information one would have to release all the blocks dependent on such a fundamental piece. When change is demanded, it's because change has already been perceived and chaos has commenced.

I would say information follows a pattern of nomad, chaos, prophecy, rebirth/artistic to creation/destruction (formation)
 
I'm having hard time following this discussion (maybe because I'm not a native English speaker), but I'd like to add something to it.

The principle of Occam's razor requires that when investigating the laws of nature, one should choose the simplest and least complicated explanation that is consistent with the experimental observations. For the 'computer' model of universe to be considered the 'correct' model, it should give simpler and more elegant explanations to phenomena than the other models.

A development to that direction is a paper by Dutch physicist Erik Verlinde, which attempts to explain the force of gravity as an emergent, information theoretical phenomenon...

http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/24975/

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1001.5445v2.pdf

In short, the Einstein equation links matter to gravity and his famous formula E = mc2 links matter to energy. We know also that the Landauer’s principle links information to energy. Thus, now we have a relation between information and gravity, the Einstein equation with the quantum informational interpretation. Our theory implies that the Einstein equation is more about information rather than energy or equation of state. In other words, information might be more profound physical entity than matter or field.

EDIT: even though I'm a physicist by education, I can't say I really understand Verlinde's theory completely... Surprisingly, his information theoretical model seems to give a correct prediction for the dark energy density of the universe...
 
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god's emotions are eternal. the universe wasn't a computer until it started thinking about things other than itself.

the idea of "one" is eternal... "one" is more eternal than "zero" in my opinion... some people say the most bizarre thing about the universe is thay anything exists at all... but i say it would be far more bizarre if there truly was nothing in existence...

the universe didn't start resembling anything like computations until god decided it wanted things other than itself to exist. "two" led to "three" led to "four" and so on and so on until we got to here. perhaps the universe as it is now is just the physical representation of the number 89790998710923750912738409813245098132609871234609812460978234609342786982345983459 XD that last sentence/thought is a little bizarre though haha. but i think the rest makes sense :)
 
Just to prove I got the idea of the holographic universe right: Would it be adequate to compare the metaphysical universe of information with a computer, and our empirical world we can observe with the screen or the desktop, the things we encounter being the icons?
As someone mentioned earlier, you still need to explain how consciousness can rise out of that. If science will be able to show that consciousness can be simulated on a machine, we will have the prove that our universe is programmed. If that programmed consciousness will get as complex as ours, it will itself be able to simulate a reality, this one will do the same, and so on. I think many of you know that thought experiment, in the end there would be thousands or millions simulated realities, and it's very unlikely that we were the ones who started all this.
 
I will have to consider more and read more prior to responding to any questions (of course with more questions: I am woefully ignorant in this arena). I can say though that this is the best thread we've had in the last year. :)

ebola
 
MattPsy said:
Why are we still thinking there is a difference between reality and simulated reality? You can't break out of either unless they are of the same construction (in which case the lines between simulated and non-simulated become even more blurred), and the rules work the same in both, so far as I can see.

chinup said:
the rules do work the same in both, the two conceptions of reality should be isomorphic, strictly mathematically identical.

The difference here is "time complexity". For example, a classic computer might be able to simulate quantum physics in polynomial time that a quantum computer would simulate in O(1). For the quantum computer, isomorphisms are intrinsic to the properties and structures of the machine itself. The quantum computer does not have to deal with scalability the same way the classic computer does. Similarly a theoretical protein based/quantum dot computer could simulate protein folding in ways that would be impossible for a classic computer even though the algorithms of a classic computer are isomorphic.
 
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Maybe the M in M-Theory means monad?

Admittedly, I have only just begun to research any of the ideas presented in this thread and have only a rudimentary or outright ignorant grasp of conceptual reality, but a question come to mind after reading. I was wondering why nobody here has commented at all on M-theory and the strings that it predicts are the fundamental foundation of all known physical matter. It seems to correspond to this discussion fairly well I think in that possibly strings=monads=qbits? This also puts into perception the idea of the "collective unconscience", with these monads(strings) holding the knowledge of the entire universe but their "purpose" gives them a unique function(vibration) on this physical plane that translates into our perception of physical matter.:?

I feel a bit apprehensive about posting this question as my personal knowledge of the subject is very limited and I hope not to offend anyone here or sound too elementary, but my questions are real and any response will be appreciated and accepted as another "maybe" at the very least. Thanks for the enlightenment in any case and please keep the thread going!<3
 
Haven't read through the thread yet, but reminded me of an SMBC comics I saw the other day..

I used to have trouble imagining the universe as as a program, but it helped when I thought of it that it was realtime rendering, and that's why time progresses at the rate that it does.

NSFW:
20120229.gif
 
If the universe is a computer, than presumably it has hardware, an OS, and applications that run within the OS or OSes. If the universe is a computer I'd like to request root privileges. I promise I'll be careful. Does anyone know who the sys admin is?

A computer is set up toward some specific functional purpose, maybe just to be a platform for other purposes as they come up.If the universe has some cool effects of "ghosting" data here and there or some other quasi-computational stuff going on, is it really very analogous to a computer?
 
It seems to correspond to this discussion fairly well I think in that possibly strings=monads=qbits? This also puts into perception the idea of the "collective unconscience", with these monads(strings) holding the knowledge of the entire universe but their "purpose" gives them a unique function(vibration) on this physical plane that translates into our perception of physical matter.:?
It's nice that see that you show so much intuitive insights in what those strange monads ought to be. You really made some good remarks. I am in a hurry now, but I will just add some more commentary from my POV.

The essence of monads is not that they are infinitely small points. This was a misconception in history (Kant/Wolff). They are not physical monads in the sense that they are "abstracted" points from a three dimensional space. Example: the point (1,1,1) in the three-dimensional Euclidean space R^3 is a mathematical point. Reasoning about matter, one can divide space in an infinity of such points, and next say that matter is made of such an infinity of points.

But this is not what monads are, they are not physical points but metaphysical points. The essence of monads is to express the universe. Leibniz's main motive for monads is unity. Background is the classical problem of Being/Becoming. How can one change from A to B? In a certain sense B is not-being (i.e. not-A) and non-being cannot exist. Leibniz introduces monads to adress such problems. Your metaphor of "vibration" is very good. The perception of monads is the expression of the Many in the One (these all are technical terms, you might want to google them). But compare it to the sea and its wild movement. The sea is constantly changing itself. Somehow the sea has all the different forms "in" itself. Where are they? How can the sea change into something it is not (yet). How can there be Many whereas the sea always stays One. What is the "underlying thing" that always remains the same throughout change. Leibniz thinks the Many/One problem with his monadology. The essence of monad is "drive" (being-on-the-way, transition-hood). And each perceptional act externalizes itself in the spatio-temporal world we live in. This world changes whereas the monad remains the same throughout. Monads bring the flux of Becoming (phenomena) into appaerence but are themselves not among them.

Similarly in string theory strings express themselve differently. I don't know the subtleties but I presuppose that each vibrational state expresses a physical atom (quarks, electrons, bosons,...). These last are physical things whereas the strings are non-physical (I guess for physicists they are not, but they ought to be non-physical).

250px-String_theory.svg.png



So, modern physics seems indeed very close to Leibniz. The basic atoms of the universe are no longer Epicurean atoms (in these sense of "physically indivisible") but atoms in the sense of Leibniz, i.e. metaphysically unities producing the material world (electron, bosons, etc.). The essence of such strings seems to be their ability to produce different vibrations, yet they remain the same. Just like the sea changes its shape, or Leibniz monads represent themselves differently, or strings vibrate different tones, there is something underlying staying the same (i.a. atomos) which pro-duces ["pro" + "ducere" means leading forth, bringing forth] the sensible world (resp. 1° "the metaphorical surface" of the sea, 2° the phenomena through perceptual acts of monads, 3° or elemantary particles such as electrons, quarks, bosons, etc.)
 
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If the universe is a computer, than presumably it has hardware, an OS, and applications that run within the OS or OSes. If the universe is a computer I'd like to request root privileges. I promise I'll be careful. Does anyone know who the sys admin is?

A computer is set up toward some specific functional purpose, maybe just to be a platform for other purposes as they come up.If the universe has some cool effects of "ghosting" data here and there or some other quasi-computational stuff going on, is it really very analogous to a computer?

I think that we, as one, are the sys admin...we just got too fucking stoned in the beginning and forgot the damn password. Hopefully soon we will figure out how to work the recovery feature=D
 
Despite my bestest efforts, most of this has gone a tad too techy for my poor addled mind to interpret :(

However, I have a deeply laymanesque interest in this topic. When I first heard it I thought it kinda laughable. But the more I looked into it (in my own rather limited way) the more it seemed to make some kinda sense. When it comes down to it, all there is (that we know of and can measure) is but packets of "information" put together in interesting ways. What exactly the ubernebulous concept of "information" is is still up in the air as far as I can tell. But the more that the clever folks zoom in on Universe the more it appears to be quantised - bits and bytes gone all fuzzy-wuzzy. But maybe that's more to do with the methods of observation than the deeper reality. Or not. Dunno cos I'm a bit dopey on specifics.

Watched an moderately interesting debate on the competing Theories of Everything recently and one of the String Theory fellas made a statement that was the first thing I've ever seen make the moderator (Neil De Grasse Tyson) shut his shouty gob and rendered speechless for a while. StringMan (Jim Gates, from memory) started off with the standard "I think we may be living in The Matrix" line, then went on to state that he's recently found not only binary code embedded in his current ubermaths studies but specific algorithms - a particular internet checksum that tinterwebz would keel over and die without I believe. Wish I had the knowledge to put it across in less of a "Hey wow!" stylee but given the effect it had on peers present who do know a bit about that kinda thang it intrigued me.

Still, without really knowing owt about owt I must admit the "We are but characters in Sims XXXXXXIIIV: The Headfuck" theory is growing on me and does have a certain amount of sense to it that so many other ideas lack.

Also, on the entropy thing, is the raising or lowering of it such a dealbreaker? Doesn't it have summat to do with open/closed systems? And do we know which category we fall into?

/drunken ramble
 
chinup said:
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Aha! I think that this was the point that I was missing before. This entails that conceptualizing the universe as a computer is non-trivial, as as events transpire (ie, as the universe processes information), the quantity of information that can be yielded from subsequent computations decreases, as these computations have been executed already.

modern physics supports ontic structural realism (osr), which cannot accommodate Aristotelian conceptions of objects. i think the conception of the universe in information theoretic terms is consistent with osr and hence with the metaphysics suggeted by modern physics. there are various flavours of osr but the basic idea divides reality into objects and relations, the relations form a structure, and the objects within these structures, if they exist at all or can legitimately be called objects, cannot exist independently of them.

as for how matter is informed, which i interpret as asking about the relationship between objects and relations, there are a number of candidates. if we take relations, i.e. structures, as ontologically primary the question dissolves, as objects are defined by their position in the sturcture. there is a Platonic version of OSR where there are only relations, with no relata, so matter is not informed as there is only form. though this idea has received many critiscisms and doesn't appear to sit easily with the conception of universe as information flow.

Unfortunately being relatively naive of this strand of metaphysics, it seems to me that OSR, and indeed physics in general, is compatible with multiple metaphysical interpretations. This is in line with my general perspective on metaphysics, wherein any body of physical data and theoretical interpretations thereof will be compatible with an arbitrarily extendable set of metaphysical principles. However, I wonder: in your opinion, does the invocation of the universe as computational discount any metaphysical interpretations?

we perceive space and time as continuous, so i'd say the idea of the continuum arises from the resolution of our perception.

Do we though? The fact that this has been a few to several thousand year long debate suggests that our perceptions of the matter are varied and contradictory.
...
Fuck me: I'll have to address more soon, if I'm even qualified to do so.
I have so say briefly though that the idea of a singularity as an agent of encryption is epic!

ebola
 
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