Is pain stronger than pleasure?

[mysunnyboy]

What kind of pain?

Severe RA, Fibromyalgia, Osteoarthritis, Palindromic Arthritis, COPD, ILDLupus, RLS in regards to physical pain.
I went from swimming 100 laps at the Y every day 4 years ago to buying a wheelchair and getting replacement surgeries for the joints that can be done.
My hands are unrecognizable. They’ve become as a crooked piece of driftwood.
I can only walk from my bedroom to the kitchen without sitting down to rest.
A lot of days my wife has to help me dress. She does everything other than cook and wash dishes. I do that sitting at the counter in my dinner chair.
I broke my arm so badly in January that I’ve already had 2 surgeries with 2 more to come.
Sucks. I live about 10 miles from the beach and it takes everything I can do to walk to the beach chair my wife has brought for me and to the water. And I love the beach.
I take a lot of medication and nothing works.
How are you doing? What do you have going on?

 

[Branggen]

Severe RA, Fibromyalgia, Osteoarthritis, Palindromic Arthritis, COPD, ILDLupus, RLS in regards to physical pain.
I went from swimming 100 laps at the Y every day 4 years ago to buying a wheelchair and getting replacement surgeries for the joints that can be done.
My hands are unrecognizable. They’ve become as a crooked piece of driftwood.
I can only walk from my bedroom to the kitchen without sitting down to rest.
A lot of days my wife has to help me dress. She does everything other than cook and wash dishes. I do that sitting at the counter in my dinner chair.
I broke my arm so badly in January that I’ve already had 2 surgeries with 2 more to come.
Sucks. I live about 10 miles from the beach and it takes everything I can do to walk to the beach chair my wife has brought for me and to the water. And I love the beach.
I take a lot of medication and nothing works.
How are you doing? What do you have going on?

Physical pain is sort of a hard one but I do think physical and mental pain are sort of the same universal force, that's my belief. Do you not feel you've gained any wisdom having to live a much more difficult life? Perhaps you feel like you 'know' life a little more intimately, a better feel for what life is really about. I can also imagine how someone in so much pain might think that everything is pointless, sort of the complete opposite of what im saying, which is sort of why in my first post I implied that it might take getting over the pain to realize its function.

Now if you believe that you were formed from randomness and that you as an individual is all that there is to you, and that after you die there will be no experience whatsoever I certainly see how pain that doesn't seem to be going anywhere could very well seem pointless. I personally think there is more to life than what we get here on earth, and that the microcosm of us as individuals applies to the macrocosm of society, and even the universe itself. It makes me think about how some peoples lives could appear so terrible you might think there couldn't possibly be any meaning there, a baby killed because it isn't male, perhaps. The meaning I see from these situations is the meaning other individuals can take from the scenarios, by witnessing them, I always wonder how many of my fellow high schoolers saw how heavily I got into drugs and destroyed my life, and chose not to follow that path or avoided certain things because of it, we all learn from each other right.

Again its hard to really make sense of physical pain that was of no fault of your own, but I really believe there is wisdom in it, and I think it would become clear if somehow you rid yourself of it. I think your pain would have made you mentally stronger just by the fact that you have to bear it, perhaps the fact that you would be forced to look towards things like family and human connection, as opposed to chasing sensations of pleasure as many people do, and fail to learn much because of it.

I think pain is a growing force merely because of the fact that you have to change to try to push through it, and if you cant get past it the fact that you are trying is in itself growth, and learning, even if it doesn't get rid of the pain. I think an old man who dies in pain would likely be wiser and have been able to pass down more wisdom, even if thats indirectly, than someone who had a life filled by pleasure, I think a life of chasing pleasures is rather unfulfilling as well.

I believe that you can find happiness, even if it is through the pain. I think to be able to do that at all takes a lot overcoming, and to overcome makes one wise I believe. To be someone who suffers willingly is one of the bravest things that there is, and to endure and look through the pain to better things, I think, is something really special

 

[Branggen]

Severe RA, Fibromyalgia, Osteoarthritis, Palindromic Arthritis, COPD, ILDLupus, RLS in regards to physical pain.
I went from swimming 100 laps at the Y every day 4 years ago to buying a wheelchair and getting replacement surgeries for the joints that can be done.
My hands are unrecognizable. They’ve become as a crooked piece of driftwood.
I can only walk from my bedroom to the kitchen without sitting down to rest.
A lot of days my wife has to help me dress. She does everything other than cook and wash dishes. I do that sitting at the counter in my dinner chair.
I broke my arm so badly in January that I’ve already had 2 surgeries with 2 more to come.
Sucks. I live about 10 miles from the beach and it takes everything I can do to walk to the beach chair my wife has brought for me and to the water. And I love the beach.
I take a lot of medication and nothing works.
How are you doing? What do you have going on?

I think the reason pain works so well as a growing force is because when you feel it you cant focus on anything else but trying to overcome or eliminate it.

 

[mysunnyboy]

Physical pain is sort of a hard one but I do think physical and mental pain are sort of the same universal force, that's my belief. Do you not feel you've gained any wisdom having to live a much more difficult life? Perhaps you feel like you 'know' life a little more intimately, a better feel for what life is really about. I can also imagine how someone in so much pain might think that everything is pointless, sort of the complete opposite of what im saying, which is sort of why in my first post I implied that it might take getting over the pain to realize its function.

Now if you believe that you were formed from randomness and that you as an individual is all that there is to you, and that after you die there will be no experience whatsoever I certainly see how pain that doesn't seem to be going anywhere could very well seem pointless. I personally think there is more to life than what we get here on earth, and that the microcosm of us as individuals applies to the macrocosm of society, and even the universe itself. It makes me think about how some peoples lives could appear so terrible you might think there couldn't possibly be any meaning there, a baby killed because it isn't male, perhaps. The meaning I see from these situations is the meaning other individuals can take from the scenarios, by witnessing them, I always wonder how many of my fellow high schoolers saw how heavily I got into drugs and destroyed my life, and chose not to follow that path or avoided certain things because of it, we all learn from each other right.

Again its hard to really make sense of physical pain that was of no fault of your own, but I really believe there is wisdom in it, and I think it would become clear if somehow you rid yourself of it. I think your pain would have made you mentally stronger just by the fact that you have to bear it, perhaps the fact that you would be forced to look towards things like family and human connection, as opposed to chasing sensations of pleasure as many people do, and fail to learn much because of it.

I think pain is a growing force merely because of the fact that you have to change to try to push through it, and if you cant get past it the fact that you are trying is in itself growth, and learning, even if it doesn't get rid of the pain. I think an old man who dies in pain would likely be wiser and have been able to pass down more wisdom, even if thats indirectly, than someone who had a life filled by pleasure, I think a life of chasing pleasures is rather unfulfilling as well.

I believe that you can find happiness, even if it is through the pain. I think to be able to do that at all takes a lot overcoming, and to overcome makes one wise I believe. To be someone who suffers willingly is one of the bravest things that there is, and to endure and look through the pain to better things, I think, is something really special

Pain changes people. People don’t know how to deal with me, ie family.
While I enjoyed reading your thoughts and beliefs, I cannot say that I agree wholeheartedly.
Pain has made me angry. I’m a Christian and I beg Him everyday for just 30 minutes, 30 seconds of relief, anything.
I am losing my eyesight from RA. I’ve got two lungs diseases from RA. Tapping on this phone hurts my fingers. I can only hold it for a few minutes at a time.
I will never get better and I have to accept that. Humira doesn’t work. Infusions at the hospital is next. I take sulfasalazine, leflunomide, cymbalta, neurontin, klonopin, morphine sulfate, both extended and immediate release. I take trazodone, tegretol, vistaril, synthroid and prazosin for nightmares. I smoke, vape and eat marijuana. I grow it with the help of my wife. Medical marijuana is too expensive and we don’t have recreational here.
I want to believe you but I have to live in a broken body and a tortured mind.
I do however live in a nature preserve and I watch deer, wild turkeys, and wild boar as well as sand hill cranes and egrets. So there’s that.
I LOVE my wife who is so very understanding and helpful. I’ve got a gorgeous puppy and three slinky cats.
Just writing helps me somewhat so I thank you so much you for your interest.
Always look forward

 

[Branggen]

Pain changes people. People don’t know how to deal with me, ie family.
While I enjoyed reading your thoughts and beliefs, I cannot say that I agree wholeheartedly.
Pain has made me angry. I’m a Christian and I beg Him everyday for just 30 minutes, 30 seconds of relief, anything.
I am losing my eyesight from RA. I’ve got two lungs diseases from RA. Tapping on this phone hurts my fingers. I can only hold it for a few minutes at a time.
I will never get better and I have to accept that. Humira doesn’t work. Infusions at the hospital is next. I take sulfasalazine, leflunomide, cymbalta, neurontin, klonopin, morphine sulfate, both extended and immediate release. I take trazodone, tegretol, vistaril, synthroid and prazosin for nightmares. I smoke, vape and eat marijuana. I grow it with the help of my wife. Medical marijuana is too expensive and we don’t have recreational here.
I want to believe you but I have to live in a broken body and a tortured mind.
I do however live in a nature preserve and I watch deer, wild turkeys, and wild boar as well as sand hill cranes and egrets. So there’s that.
I LOVE my wife who is so very understanding and helpful. I’ve got a gorgeous puppy and three slinky cats.
Just writing helps me somewhat so I thank you so much you for your interest.
Always look forward

Yes I think there is something to say also for accepting pain and being at peace with it, I think that would also be growth. You are right to look forward, we never really know what the future holds and Ive found that a moment of joy, or pleasure can sometimes make all the pain feel worth it, even if on a scale they would not balance. Nature preserve sounds lovely as does your relationship with your wife, I do think trying our hardest to be thankful for what we do have can sort of eliminate some of the pain. Its what we focus on that becomes our life in a sense, and I get how pain is something constantly fighting for your attention, and if it gets bad enough how it can become the only thing that exists.

I dont have chronic pain, the hardest most painful thing Ive faced yet has been quitting opioids, which took a couple years of some pretty nasty discomfort I would say, I dont even really want to call it pain in comparison to what you face; but it definitely took some overcoming, and perhaps gave me this view on pain being growth. I sort of think if you can get to a point where you are able to focus on the positives most of the time, something that would probably take tons of willpower and perhaps have to be forced at first, then I think that would be something that would make you feel accomplished, to feel like you overcame your pain. Even though you would still feel it, you could be bigger than it.

I dont mean to try and pretend I know what you feel but I guess this is sort of how I would imagine the best possible scenario playing out, I wish you all the best

Nick

 

[mysunnyboy]

Yes I think there is something to say also for accepting pain and being at peace with it, I think that would also be growth. You are right to look forward, we never really know what the future holds and Ive found that a moment of joy, or pleasure can sometimes make all the pain feel worth it, even if on a scale they would not balance. Nature preserve sounds lovely as does your relationship with your wife, I do think trying our hardest to be thankful for what we do have can sort of eliminate some of the pain. Its what we focus on that becomes our life in a sense, and I get how pain is something constantly fighting for your attention, and if it gets bad enough how it can become the only thing that exists.

I dont have chronic pain, the hardest most painful thing Ive faced yet has been quitting opioids, which took a couple years of some pretty nasty discomfort I would say, I dont even really want to call it pain in comparison to what you face; but it definitely took some overcoming, and perhaps gave me this view on pain being growth. I sort of think if you can get to a point where you are able to focus on the positives most of the time, something that would probably take tons of willpower and perhaps have to be forced at first, then I think that would be something that would make you feel accomplished, to feel like you overcame your pain. Even though you would still feel it, you could be bigger than it.

I dont mean to try and pretend I know what you feel but I guess this is sort of how I would imagine the best possible scenario playing out, I wish you all the best

Nick

Thank you Nick. I very much appreciate your kind words.
Good luck to you in all your endeavors.
Hopefully we will be strong friends.

 

[Gormur]

I've never told anybody this, but I find babies disgusting. Especially the older ones who I know are older than me when I was already potty trained, which was before I turned 1. I guess I feel like they should already be grown up by then and it seems weird to me, but what do I know. I'm just one person

I feel the same about romance and intimacy. They're things I like reading about or watching on TV, but I don't understand them so they intrigue me. However, when people start arguing/quarreling, I get turned off and feel disconnected to the characters. I see arguing as a character flaw and it's no longer possible for me to identify with the characters

 

[mysunnyboy]

It depends on what type of pleasure it is. I find the non-sexual kind is far more potent and longer lasting than the sexual kind which although it is still potent is not lasting.

This is why many people find drugs like speed or heroin (or both together) to be better than sex, that's because it usually is, but the brain has a way to change its set point and that's where people run into problems - the body so used to pleasure then finds itself in pain when that pleasure is withdrawn because the drugs run out.

The greatest pleasure (both physical and emotional) that I've ever experienced was holding a baby much like in this fashion:

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Thus far nothing has ever come close to the magnitude of that, and the pleasure from that was so much stronger than the worst pain I've ever felt. Imagine the most intense joyful emotion you have ever felt, then multiply that 100 fold, then imagine that penetrating through your entire body, skin, flesh, bone and all. A religious experience would seem pathetically weak by comparison.

I've snapped my left arm, fell on ice and cracked my tailbone, suffered outer/middle ear infections, smashed both front teeth and ended up with severe abscesses in both, slipped discs between L4 and L5 and L5 and S1, sat on a nest of jack jumpers and stung at least a dozen times (this is a certain variety of bull ant) and also stubbed toes dozens of times as well as got hit in the eye with a squash ball.

I've also been through the loss of my mother to suicide at 12, losing close friends due to misunderstandings, being assaulted and bullied at school, and being told that my mental problems were brought on myself when they clearly were not.

Emotional pain is far worse than physical pain, so there's that.

I believe that we do not have the capacity to feel the memory of pain. To feel once again what it was like to break a leg. We know it hurt, but we cannot feel the pain again.
I believe that we can feel an emotional pain again. I believe our brains allow us to feel the same hurt or disappointment from the original emotional trauma
just my own opinion
I’ve broken many bones and I have a lot of hardware in my body. But I cannot feel what it felt when my ankle joint was severed or when my arm was smashed to pieces.
But I can feel that awful pit in my stomach much the same as I did when I found out my spouse was cheating or when my grandfather died. I can feel my bp rise and my heart beats faster.
At least there’s that. I’d show you my last X-ray of my arm from 2 weeks ago but I’ve not figured out how to upload a photo.

 

[4meSM]

Yeah pain is definitely stronger, mostly for evolutionary reasons as the OP said.

Pleasure is the reason we keep on living, pain makes us closer to death.

It's true that pleasure can be extreme strong and it will allow you to keep the associated memory for a long time.
Pain is a different animal, the feeling of pain usually means there's a strong possibility that something very serious and possibly life threatening happened/is happening to you. Pain leaves a mark, even more sos if it's psychological and/or chronic pain

 

[Gormur]

Yeah pain is definitely stronger, mostly for evolutionary reasons as the OP said.

Pleasure is the reason we keep on living, pain makes us closer to death.

That's interesting to think about. I think pain is a way of dealing with living, so everybody feels it and deals with it. I have a moderately high tolerance to physical pain but I think people who don't might just be different because of genetics; neurological

I can't say anything about emotional pain unless it's about how others recognize it in people who are aloof, loner types because they still don't know what we/they are feeling. I don't feel sad but I've had people ask me if I'm all right since I like to spend time by myself

Lastly, I can't say I agree about pleasure being a reason to live. I think pleasure is something a person makes for themselves, at least for me it is. If I lived for pleasure I'd probably be dead

 

[kinkyjohn]

Pain and pleasure do have profoundly different impacts on memory. We're coded to forget pain far more than pleasure and if you think back to your most painful experiences you won't in any way have to relief the experience of the pain. The same ain't true of pleasure.

This goes for physical and emotional pain. Leads to fascinating and presuably highly useful erceptual biases.

 

[Yourbaker]

Since all pain is experienced in your brain it would be reasonable that enduring physical pain is a mental strength as is being able to overcome emotional issues.

Both pains are an experience of my consciiusness but the physical pain is also an experience of my physical body. I can always recover from emotional pain or mental stress or what ever is happening in my mind and come back stronger from it but physical pain may be a sign or broken body that may never heal correctly.

Mental or emotional pain does not need to be permanently damaging no matter how difficult it is in the moment. If you look around at others you will find someone who Has overcome any kind of pain, looking at examples of success helps to see the way out. A missing leg will be missing until a new one is grafted on but a wounded spirit or mind can heal stronger. Pain is a gift it's showing you something about you that requires change, pay attention to it don't hate it.

 

[4meSM]

That's interesting to think about. I think pain is a way of dealing with living, so everybody feels it and deals with it. I have a moderately high tolerance to physical pain but I think people who don't might just be different because of genetics; neurological

I can't say anything about emotional pain unless it's about how others recognize it in people who are aloof, loner types because they still don't know what we/they are feeling. I don't feel sad but I've had people ask me if I'm all right since I like to spend time by myself

Lastly, I can't say I agree about pleasure being a reason to live. I think pleasure is something a person makes for themselves, at least for me it is. If I lived for pleasure I'd probably be dead

I'm using a broader definition of pain and pleasure.
Pleasure is directly intertwined with the reward system, I'm not taking just about hedonistic or selfish pleasure. You definitely live for pleasure, everyone does. The pleasure of eating food, engaging in hobbies, being with your loved ones, the pleasure of pursuing a goal, having a meaningful life, etc...

On the other hand pain is very close to fear and trauma. It's a prelude to death.
But that doesn't mean it can't be useful. You can overcome pain, learn from it, or simply live your life trying to avoid pain (that's what most people do as well).
The acute pain you get from getting hurt is just a very small part of what constitutes the experience of pain.

 

[atara]

I've read the 'Asymmetry Argument' of antinatalists and it seems to make sense.

The first advice I have for you is to never, ever take anything those people say seriously. Antinatalists are the worst.

The pain of breaking a bone, acid thrown in face, being tortured, being raped, burned alive is more 'badder' than the pleasure of sex, good food, heroin/ecstasy/coke high can ever be.

That this is not true is in evidence by observing the actual behavior of people who want heroin. People who think painful experiences are the most important kind have mostly learned about those experiences by reading stories and watching movies, i.e. fiction. People who go through such experiences... often choose to go through them again, if it means more heroin.

You will rarely hear such sentiments expressed e.g. by actual victims of torture. John McCain was not an antinatalist. Interviews with Guantanamo Bay and Holocaust survivors do not reveal a sudden shift in the question of whether life is worth living. Only made-up stories like Nineteen Eighty-Four depict torture as the most important thing a person can experience.

Our brain is just an electrochemical computer, and even our worst suffering is just a particular configuration of neuronal activity. And that's the end of it: aggregated evolutionary improvements have only created the capacity to suffer insofar as that suffering serves an actual evolutionary -- reproductive -- purpose.

This all is not to demean the moral prohibition on causing suffering to others, which is one of the most crucial human values so much so that we think it is "what makes us human", but rather to put that prohibition in perspective for being what it is: a human instinct.

Evolutionarily, it makes sense. Good things are meant to motivate us while bad things can kill us so our bodies and brains have evolved pain mechanisms to be more intense than pleasure mechanisms.

Evolutionarily, it is so hilariously wrong that it should not be entertained for more than five seconds. Our bodies are temporary, expendable gene shuttles that make offspring and ought to be willing to undergo literally anything that leads to producing offspring, even if it means losing your arm to a very slow meat-grinder while on naloxone.

Luckily, evolutionary reasoning is generally bullshit without biochemistry backing it up, so there's no reason to test this idea.

EDIT: Post 2592! 2^5 * 9^2 = 2592!

 

[Gormur]

I'm using a broader definition of pain and pleasure.
Pleasure is directly intertwined with the reward system, I'm not taking just about hedonistic or selfish pleasure. You definitely live for pleasure, everyone does. The pleasure of eating food, engaging in hobbies, being with your loved ones, the pleasure of pursuing a goal, having a meaningful life, etc...

On the other hand pain is very close to fear and trauma. It's a prelude to death.
But that doesn't mean it can't be useful. You can overcome pain, learn from it, or simply live your life trying to avoid pain (that's what most people do as well).
The acute pain you get from getting hurt is just a very small part of what constitutes the experience of pain.

I understand what you're saying but I don't want to confuse pleasure with trying to cover up pain with things like eating, doing drugs, exercising or having sex. I think that's common as well and it's something I know that I do a lot

 

[extropy]

Nah mate, laughter is stronger.

All you need to do is get stoned, then watch the news, or try to talk sense to a christian. they're both hilarious.

Sit on your own for a month, like Jesus, if you need to (unfortunately at this part of the journey you can't have sex; you need to be alone (being with weed is technically being alone so you're fine at that gate)).

You'll be fine, we're taking this place up baby...

 

[extropy]

Nah mate, laughter is stronger.

All you need to do is get stoned, then watch the news, or try to talk sense to a christian. they're both hilarious.

Sit on your own for a month, like Jesus, if you need to (unfortunately at this part of the journey you can't have sex; you need to be alone (being with weed is technically being alone so you're fine at that gate)).

You'll be fine, we're taking this place up baby...

Excuse me for quoting myself

ok i was vey drunk the other night, maybe my position is closer to, they at least balance.

Or... due to local morphogenetic fields of the subtle substances (in particular), like emotion and thought, at times, may become imbalanced. so at certain locations love/happiness would outbalance fear/pain.

just to be clear, i see thought and emotion as substance. qualia perhaps. maybe one day we'll have a qualia detector, and work out where the spikes in love and happiness are, and psychically and physically move into these spaces. but then we may become the problem itself, and the balance will come after us, and we will not be able to avoid a painful outcome for our being.

but i hold hope that this is not the way.

 

[Lydian Jester]

Ummm no it is not....I really do not understand where this strain of thought comes from...sorry.

 

[extropy]

^well to be honest it's mostly a whimsical thought, but which part tripped you up?

I am aware struggle and pain can in fact be healthy for our being, I'm just on about moving the collective in a way where love/bliss and laughter, can outweigh pain/fear and suffering. because i see an imbalance in the fear/pain aspect, in the realm we (or at least I) inhabit.

and if this is not to be hoped for, what is?

 

[Lydian Jester]

Well I actually was just replying to the OP. I feel we have potential to feel pain and pleasure with equal magnitude. We have all had moments of bliss no matter how fleeting, and in contrast moments of sheer agony, they simply lie on opposite sides of the spectrum.