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Is opiod addiction the worst addiction?

Science ... just google drugs harm chart.
Heroin is on top if that.
Yep and that chart is out of whack. For one, anytime someone dies of drug poisoning and has any trace of heroin or other opiates in his system, the death is routinely chalked up to the heroin. While it's certainly possible to overdose on heroin alone (done it plenty), statistically over 90% of fatal overdoses are due to polydrug abuse (ie the user ingested a cocktail of substances) and increasingly, the contamination with fentanyl and other super-potent synthetic opioids. Plus drug harm charts also tend to count deaths due to infectious diseases acquired through IV drug use. Then also the general state of health of your typical street junkie is ruinous for obvious reasons.

Yet neither contamination with toxic substances nor unsterile injection practices nor poor health due to the lifestyle are inherent properties of heroin itself. There's no reason for heroin or any other opiate to be inherently more dangerous than any other drug. It's the illegality that produces the danger.

A pharmaceutically pure opiate of known strength allowing for accurate dosage is not harmful to the human body.
As an example take the classical morphinists, many of whom were dependent on large doses for decades yet suffered no physical ill effects. They also didn't drop like flies from overdoses because their substance was legally produced.
Alkohol is nothing lol.
If alcohol was a newly discovered drug just hitting the black market, I'm telling you health organisations and anti-drug campaigners would be losing their shit over its many deleterious effects and it wouldn't stand a chance in hell of being legalized.
Like the whole world is consuming alcohol.
And most people who drink don't drink every single day and don't drink to excess when they do take alcohol. UNLIKE heroin, alcohol is a cell toxin which adversely affects just about every organ. Apart from the obvious damage it can do to the liver and in extreme cases your brain, heavy consumption is also implicated in a range of cancers. Heroin does none of these things.

Here just by way of an example is the EU statistic for average yearly deaths caused by heroin vs the two most popular legal substances :
heroin overdose / drug poisoning 5,800
alcohol-related 255,000 - 290,000
nicotine-related 700,000

You'll find that replicated in similar proportions worldwide.
It's just that with drinking and smoking the damage is cumulative; apart from the occasional case of acute fatal alcohol poisoning death doesn't follow one single instance of consumption. It's not so dramatically obvious as somebody sticking a needle in his arm and keeling over. That skews the perception of relative danger.
 
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Fentanyl must be so hugely profitable. I note a couple of online places are selling BDPC (trans-4-(4-Bromophenyl)-4-(dimethylamino)-1-(2-phenylethyl)cyclohexan-1-ol). It has not had good reviews. This is because the -Br prevents hydroxylation so metabolism involves N-demethylation and if memory serves, the metabolite (a secondary amine) is a KOR and so dysphoric. If they had simply swapped the -Br for a -CH3, duration drops from 12 to 4 hours... but it's 4 GOOD hours. that is because the -CH3 is not only a structural requirement but it's also a sacrificial moiety. The body will readily oxudize it to a carboxylic acid (so LogP goes down and it's redistributed away from the brain and will be removed by the kidneys as the sodium salt.

I can honestly see BDPC being used to treat fentanyl dependence if only because while everyone agrees that it IS a very potent opioid, everyone seemed to suffer very unpleasent side-effects (the cause of which I mentioned).


I cannot find MANY experiences and since it's x504 morphine in potency, it's a very hazardous material. I truly cannot believe that someone is prepared to put lives at risk by sending it through the post. Of course, nobody had access to GC-MS and/or NMR (or similar instrumentation) so all we know for sure is that people are selling it as BDPC.

To my mind, this stuff should rightly be classed as a chemical weapon. I know fast&bulbous also noted that anything more potent than about x10 M is almost certainly going to lead to accidental overdoses or worse. So avoid that one.
 
Here just by way of an example is the EU statistic for average yearly deaths caused by heroin vs the two most popular legal substances :
heroin overdose / drug poisoning 5,800
alcohol-related 255,000 - 290,000
nicotine-related 700,000

You'll find that replicated in similar proportions worldwide.
This statistic is not giving the real truth of the deads, I mean that this numbers are not saying that heroin is less harmfull than alcohol or nicotine. I dont have numbers but there much more consumers of alcohol and nicotine that with heroin. Im not saying that am not agree with you but the problem with heroin that you dont have with alcohol and nicotine is OD.

kongoman❤️❤️❤️❤️
 
Fentanyl must be so hugely profitable. I note a couple of online places are selling BDPC (trans-4-(4-Bromophenyl)-4-(dimethylamino)-1-(2-phenylethyl)cyclohexan-1-ol). It has not had good reviews. This is because the -Br prevents hydroxylation so metabolism involves N-demethylation and if memory serves, the metabolite (a secondary amine) is a KOR and so dysphoric. If they had simply swapped the -Br for a -CH3, duration drops from 12 to 4 hours... but it's 4 GOOD hours. that is because the -CH3 is not only a structural requirement but it's also a sacrificial moiety. The body will readily oxudize it to a carboxylic acid (so LogP goes down and it's redistributed away from the brain and will be removed by the kidneys as the sodium salt.

I can honestly see BDPC being used to treat fentanyl dependence if only because while everyone agrees that it IS a very potent opioid, everyone seemed to suffer very unpleasent side-effects (the cause of which I mentioned).


I cannot find MANY experiences and since it's x504 morphine in potency, it's a very hazardous material. I truly cannot believe that someone is prepared to put lives at risk by sending it through the post. Of course, nobody had access to GC-MS and/or NMR (or similar instrumentation) so all we know for sure is that people are selling it as BDPC.

To my mind, this stuff should rightly be classed as a chemical weapon. I know fast&bulbous also noted that anything more potent than about x10 M is almost certainly going to lead to accidental overdoses or worse. So avoid that one.
I read the part about him just rinsing the bag and it dropped him.... god people need to be careful. you can get barman for free online and I highly recommend it as these days u could do a mubp of coke and that will kill u cause some asshole accidentally put pentyl in it.Before you say that never happens, here is my source.
 
This statistic is not giving the real truth of the deads, I mean that this numbers are not saying that heroin is less harmfull than alcohol or nicotine. I dont have numbers but there much more consumers of alcohol and nicotine that with heroin. Im not saying that am not agree with you but the problem with heroin that you dont have with alcohol and nicotine is OD.

kongoman❤️❤️❤️❤️
Oh sure, there are far less heroin/opiate users than smokers and drinkers. But even if those numbers were equal, in a scenario where heroin was available LEGALLY and produced under strict regulations, if anything there'd be LESS drug-related deaths, proportionally speaking. The reason being nicotine and ethanol are inherently harmful to the human body but the same isn't true of heroin so long as it is pure. None of the harms related to heroin use are due to the pharmacology of the drug itself - apart from the risk of overdose due to it being a CNS suppressant, and that could be prevented in most cases if it had a consistent known potency.

The reason there's so many overdoses with illegal heroin compared to morphine back in the day when that was still legal, is due to precisely the fact that it's an unregulated substance. The strength is completely unpredictable from one batch to the next. That's what makes it so risky; it's basically impossible to accurately (and therefore safely) dose yourself. That, and you don't know what the fuck else is in it, again because it's an illegal product.

'Interestingly' enough, the only fatality so far in a safe injection site wasn't due to the opiate, but due to the user suffering anaphylactic shock from the quinine the drug had been cut with.
 
24 days sober here :)

Alcohol is so bad man, so hard on the body. I used to almost beg to go back to heroin, because it doesn't destroy your body like alcohol.
I think drinking was why I was so ripe for heroin addiction. I never considered myself an alcoholic, but I did drink for the calm, soporific effects I got. I hated the accompanying hangovers. I could not hold my drink. Lightweight, for sure.

So...when the opportunity (really? is that what we will call it??!) arose for me to try heroin, REAL heroin, I did not hesitate. Who needs alcohol when you have heroin?

Who the fuck needs anything???!
 
Oh sure, there are far less heroin/opiate users than smokers and drinkers. But even if those numbers were equal, in a scenario where heroin was available LEGALLY and produced under strict regulations, if anything there'd be LESS drug-related deaths, proportionally speaking. The reason being nicotine and ethanol are inherently harmful to the human body but the same isn't true of heroin so long as it is pure. None of the harms related to heroin use are due to the pharmacology of the drug itself - apart from the risk of overdose due to it being a CNS suppressant, and that could be prevented in most cases if it had a consistent known potency.

The reason there's so many overdoses with illegal heroin compared to morphine back in the day when that was still legal, is due to precisely the fact that it's an unregulated substance. The strength is completely unpredictable from one batch to the next. That's what makes it so risky; it's basically impossible to accurately (and therefore safely) dose yourself. That, and you don't know what the fuck else is in it, again because it's an illegal product.

'Interestingly' enough, the only fatality so far in a safe injection site wasn't due to the opiate, but due to the user suffering anaphylactic shock from the quinine the drug had been cut with.

Exactly. Nearly all of the risk of death from heroin is due to its illegality. Because it's illegal, you get pushed t the margins of society. People end up homeless, sharing needles, which produces infections, and of course the damage done from being homeless... you get thrown in jail, you have to deal with dangerous areas and people to get the drug. And when you do get the drug, you have absolutely no way of knowing its strength even if it IS heroin... and today, most of it is fentanyl. So you can have a bag and one shot is fine, the next shot is a fentanyl hot spot and you die.

Contrast that with if it was legally available and regulated. You could be 100% sure you have pure heroin every time. You know your dose, you do your dose, you get high. You won't die randomly because it's stronger one day. Obviously people could still die if they're dumb and they don't have a tolerance and their friend tells them to do the amount they're used to doing... or some other mistake is made. But nearly all of the opiate deaths are due to the fact that you have no idea what you're taking, and that is 100% due to the fact that it is illegal and controlled/supplied by cartels and gangs and other people who don't give a fuck about anything except how they can make money, and are not subjected to any quality controls.

To be sure, opiate addiction carries its own problems. You become a slave to a substance. You have horrible withdrawals when you can't get it anymore. But back before drug prohibition, in the 1800s and early 1900s, morphine, heroin and cocaine were all sold over the counter. They made many brands called things like "mother's little helper", which were advertised as tonics to get you feeling motivated and pain free and stuff like that. Literally marketed to housewives to help them have a better day or treat sleeplessness or fatigue. These would contain pharmaceutical grade cocaine, morphine, and/or heroin. There were addicts who didn't really even understand what they were taking, who kept at it for decades, with no problems unless they stopped taking it, at which point they felt awful, of course.

Meanwhile, through this whole time, continuing to today, the damage done from being an alcoholic is profound. Alcohol kills the most people of any drug. In fact there are more alcohol deaths than all other drugs combined. Yes, it's because it's the most widely used drug. But still. Alcohol kills you slowly over time with abuse. It utterly destroys your health until your organs shut down and you die. Heroin/opiates do not do any damage to your organs, unless you overdose, in which case your breathing shuts down and you die from that, since you're unconscious and can't force yourself to breathe.

The ONLY reason alcohol is such an accepted part of society and will never be illegal is because it is the oldest drug and has been a part of human society since before civilization times. This is because it is made naturally, surely by accident at first, by natural yeasts in the air eating sugary liquids and producing ethanol as a byproduct. If alcohol was a synthetic substance that was just discovered now, it would be labeled "the new drug that's KILLING OUR KIDS" and would be schedule 1 so fast your head would spin. And rightfully so, honestly.

Almost all of the harms from opiates come from their illegality. Even if it were legal and regulated, people would still become addicts, but the problem would be reduced to feeling like shit if you couldn't afford to buy some, or couldn't get access to it for a while. There is also the problem of chronic opiate addiction feeling like it steals your soul... being a slave to any substance slowly does serious damage to your sense of self-esteem and so forth. This is problem from any addiction, really, but with drugs it's worse because of all the receptor downregulation and messing with the reward/pleasure systems. These are problems, to be sure, but the problems caused by opiates being illegal are great by orders of magnitude. The drug war is an abysmal failure and needs to stop. Let people choose whether or not to put something in their body.

My vote is for legalizing and regulating ALL drugs. Absolutely DO NOT allow advertising for drugs (including tobacco and alcohol), and make them available in special stores, like the government liquor stores in some states that are the only places you can buy liquor. Make those stores unobtrusive and out of the line of sight for people going about their days. If that was done, we would eliminate most of the societal problems that drugs cost (incarceration, cartel/gang violence from the drug trade, contaminated drug/accidental overdosing, diseases spread by dirty drug paraphernalia, even the high incidence of kids getting into hard drugs to be "cool" or rebel). After all, the drug war doesn't work, prohibition doesn't work, this has been irrefutably proven time and time again. All it has led to is a far worse problem: fentanyl, and entire countries in central America where there are kidnappings and random beheadings of innocent bystanders. And huge taxpayer cost. It would be a net positive right from the get-go. People who want to use drugs can and will, you can't stop that. But what you can do is minimize the harm to individuals and society.
 
Well the US did try to ban the use of alcohol and the result was an increased death-toll with unskilled people attempting to distil it, poor/unsafe materials used in the brewing process that was itself without any kind of hygiene or safety standards.

In modern day India their are regularly mass deaths when people drink illegal alcohol. Those are the most visible but I believe such incidents happen in every nation-state that has controlled alcohol.
 
Well the US did try to ban the use of alcohol and the result was an increased death-toll with unskilled people attempting to distil it, poor/unsafe materials used in the brewing process that was itself without any kind of hygiene or safety standards.

In modern day India their are regularly mass deaths when people drink illegal alcohol. Those are the most visible but I believe such incidents happen in every nation-state that has controlled alcohol.
As an alcoholic I don't think alcohol should be banned, legal regulation is a good thing.

All I would ask for is some sort of public discretion. Like porn. Put the alcohol in a back, private room outside of easy view.

I fucking hate how I walk into a grocery store, gas station, or restaurant and I'm bombarded with visible alcohol for sale or advertisement.
 
No, I'd consider it one of the easier addictions to have, but it really depends on what metrics you're talking about. Hardest to quit? Maybe, but subjective.

Alcoholism is hands down probably the worst, IMO.
Life spawn for a Alcoholic is a lot less compared to opiods for sure .
 
I would want my loved ones to be addicted to almost anything else cuz of its overdose potential. but for the addict it could be worse.

Worst withdrawal? No
heroin is the most agonizing, but give me it again, before the utter terror from benzo and alc w/d; knowing i cud seize out and die at any given moment.

Personality: gone
heroin can make u the most lifeless and dull person on the planet.

Brain damage?? Not the worst
Crack hands down.
Never understood what so appealing about crack :(
 
Drugs have different properties and different dangers. Sorta apples and oranges

There's toxicity - Are it's normal effects hard on your body?
Addiction potential - What percentage of users become addicted?
Therapeutic Index - ED vs TD and LD - Effective Dose vs Toxic Dose and Lethal Dose - How big a window between when you get high till when you get sick or die?

And, I'm sure there are more.

Arguing over whether alcohol is more toxic than heroin when you are comparing organ damage to OD is not logical even if you can OD easily on clean, legal heroin. Apples and oranges.
 
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Obviously you can easily overdose on pure heroin. But my point was that for an educated user who knows their business, if you have clean pure heroin every time, your chances of overdose are very small. It's not like one day the same dose you take every day is going to overdose you. But of course there would be overdoses, because people are dumb, ad also beyond that, people make bad decisions. Like give their opiate virgin friend the same dose they're used to without thinking, or take a break and get clean, and then relapse and forget they need to dose way less than they used to, etc. I mean obviously heroin is a dangerous drug any way you look at it.

But so is alcohol. And unlike alcohol, if you use pure, pharma grade heroin daily, with only proper, clean ingestion practices (even if you IV, but especially if you snort or smoke it), you can escape damaging your body and mind other than the imbalancing of your endogenous reward system and opioid receptors that you do which causes you to get addicted and suffer greatly without the drug. Whereas if you get drunk every day, even if you keep it to nights and never get physically dependent, over the course of 20, 30, 40 years, you will cause great damage to your brain and body and drink yourself to an early grave.
 
Haha never actually tried it… and m 100% positive I’ll never do use a needle. Already OD’d too many times without em

Me either... stick to that. It's the one single drug rule I ever made for myself that I have never broke in over 20 years of drug use.

That said, crack doesn't involve needles, typically it's smoked. You can IV it but to get it to dissolve in water, you have to add an acid, which turns it back into cocaine. Crack is just cocaine in freebase form, which makes it smokeable. They're the same drug, though, you just can't smoke cocaine, or at least, if you can, it's very inefficient.
 
I can't stress enough the difference in psychology when drugs are free as opposed to being very expensive.

This might be a poor analogy, but maybe you remember when you were a kid. (This is a true story of my life, Mom is a health-nut-liberal) I remember she would only let my brothers and I have soda, like a sweetened drink like Coke or Pepsi when we did something special like going out for dinner, birthdays, that type of stuff. I remember how awesome the Coke would taste. I would often end up complaining, "why can't we just have soda at our house like my normal friends?". I remember thinking how great it would be to just have soda all the time, however much I wanted. In my incomplete, child-view of my world, I might have told you that if I had all the soda I wanted, I would be happy forever, right? I'd always have that special treat. Again, in my mind, it's like, maybe I would just sit and drink Coke all day, what else could I have that's better than that?

As I got older and my Mother naturally had less control of my life, I got a fuller picture. I remember being at a dance in middle school at age 12, no chaperone, just us kids, running around on our own on the school grounds. It felt like freedom. They had a table with food like hot dogs, burgers and of course, endless cans of store-brand coca-cola. I remember even at 12, looking around seeing if I was being watched. I remember asking the adult at the table, "so, I can just have as many of these as I want?". I had arrived. Years of my Mother's malicious interference was over. I probably drank 9-10 cans of soda in a 2 hour period, getting sick of the coke flavor and switching between flavors, panicking, realizing that everything that I had thought for years about personal freedom, treats and my own volition in life was completely misinformed.

In short, we are raised with drugs as a "bad thing". You are not to do them. They are prohibited. Only those in the know can just go and get drugs whenever they want. You know what my first thought was whenever I felt the effects of Alcohol? "Man, if I could just feel like this all the time, life would be great". But, from the start, these things are secret. Money is a problem. Time is a problem. Social constraints and relationships are a problem. In short, many addicts will say after years and years of bullshit "can I ever just use how exactly I want to?" Many addicts will never get there.

It was only when I was in a shitty hotel room, with rent paid, all the food I could want, Heroin available a few doors down, no Mom, no girlfriend, no law, no TIME. It didn't matter. I could do as much as I wanted. My life's journey had been completely misinformed. All the drugs I could take did nothing but turn me into a numb person. This perverse lust that we all have for our drugs as if they're the most beautiful, sexy thing we've ever seen, but our love is forbidden and never fully realized... it's all basically bullshit. After having all the Heroin I could ever want, with other drugs, I was tired of the experience after about 1-2 months and began reducing my Heroin dosage on my own accord to about 25% of my highest dosage.

This is something that most addicts in America will never experience. It's the moment when you realize a big part of your lust and addiction comes from the fact that you are always hunting, always running, always fighting, always living in fear of yourself and the world. It's like the moment when I drank all that soda. It's a pretty crazy realization. When you're constantly running and gunning, you will never have the opportunity to just shut the world out, live on your terms and experiment with drugs to your heart's content and I feel this freedom is one of the best and purest ways of teaching a user of their own real desires.

In short, this is why they say Heroin prescription programs are so successful. It actually allows the user time to really think about what they're doing and what they're getting out of it. They have an entire 24 hours every day to contemplate their life. Most users on the Heroin prescription program stablilize and become productive members of their society. Many users also reduce their dosage on their own accord and many end up leaving treatment completely.
 
Obviously you can easily overdose on pure heroin. But my point was that for an educated user who knows their business, if you have clean pure heroin every time, your chances of overdose are very small. It's not like one day the same dose you take every day is going to overdose you. But of course there would be overdoses, because people are dumb, ad also beyond that, people make bad decisions. Like give their opiate virgin friend the same dose they're used to without thinking, or take a break and get clean, and then relapse and forget they need to dose way less than they used to, etc. I mean obviously heroin is a dangerous drug any way you look at it.

But so is alcohol. And unlike alcohol, if you use pure, pharma grade heroin daily, with only proper, clean ingestion practices (even if you IV, but especially if you snort or smoke it), you can escape damaging your body and mind other than the imbalancing of your endogenous reward system and opioid receptors that you do which causes you to get addicted and suffer greatly without the drug. Whereas if you get drunk every day, even if you keep it to nights and never get physically dependent, over the course of 20, 30, 40 years, you will cause great damage to your brain and body and drink yourself to an early grave.
Agree completely. Opiates in general are known to be not very toxic drugs.
I'm not all that familiar with Fentanyl, but it's possible that it's not even particularly toxic, it just has a very narrow window between getting high and ODing. That's not toxicity, per se.
 
Agree completely. Opiates in general are known to be not very toxic drugs.
I'm not all that familiar with Fentanyl, but it's possible that it's not even particularly toxic, it just has a very narrow window between getting high and ODing. That's not toxicity, per se.

Drugs within the same class or family or what have you are known to share basic effect profiles. All Benzodiazepines do essentially the same few things. Some Benzodiazepines produce more amnesia than others. Some are more sedating than others, but at the end of the day, anyone who has ever taken an Alprazolam (Xanax) could easily use a potency equivalent chart and be fine taking most any other Benzodiazepine.

Opioids are no different. We know that some Opioids produce a disproportional level of respiratory depression relative to other Opioids. However, it's my firm belief that the entirety of the Fentanyl problem can be traced back to an extremely simple and visible cause, that being the increased potency, with the end-stage dealers using essentially identical practices in preparing bags of Fentanyl as they would making bags of Heroin; a little spoon, perhaps a mid-range milligram scale, it's easy to see how mistakes happen.

I don't believe Fentanyl to be any more dangerous than a standard Morphine derivative like Heroin. It's just the issue of potency combined with a lackadaisical attitude toward customer care on the part of the drug gangs.
 
If the heroin is pure is super harmless.

Absolutely not.

In physiological terms the perfect administration of pharmaceutical heroin may be pretty harmless in itself, but even that massively reductive situation that doesn’t exist in real life is likely to have a large range of negative effects when you look at the effect it has on behaviour and the way this impacts one’s life.
 
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