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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards

Is it possible to safely combine amphetamines with mdma?

worse!!? u mean more lipid suluable wich makes it slightly more potent weight for weight...plus i didnt mean to write that anyway. thought someone wa getting abit snobby because they do 'speed' instead of 'meth' all very silly

No, I don't mean that. It is more lipid-soluble, it is quite a lot more potent weight by weight, but that's not what I meant at all. I meant that it is far more neurotoxic than amphetamine.
 
No, I don't mean that. It is more lipid-soluble, it is quite a lot more potent weight by weight, but that's not what I meant at all. I meant that it is far more neurotoxic than amphetamine.

Yeah that was what I was getting at as well.

Right so hypothetically if one wanted to minimise damage done, would it be better to do a small amount of speed with a tiny bit of mandy or a tiny amout of speed with a small amount of md?
 
Just did a bit of quick Googling for stats on the purity and composition of ecstasy pills. In the Netherlands, most recent data shows a trend towards almost only MDMA as an active ingredient (although two, three years ago this was far from the case). Most ecstasy in Europe is made here, though, and it's dirt cheap, so I guess there isn't any point in making shitty pills.

If we take Germany, for example, the 2010 data (source: European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction, National Report: Germany 2011) shows something quite different:

* The majority of ecstasy pills were monopreparations (one psychoactive ingredient rather than a mix); combination preparations were a very small portion of the total data
* mCPP was found in over 60% of monopreparations as THE active chemical
* MDMA was found in about 23%
* Pure amphetamine pills were 14%, methamphetamine 2%


How about the UK? In 2010, only 11% of all tablets analyzed contained MDMA as the only scheduled substance.

it's not common knowledge or expectancy for your MDMA tablet to be mixed with amphetamines.

Where I come from, it is, and having done a bit of quick research, it certainly should be.

Unless you live in a country with exceptionally good pills, such as the Netherlands, then I would say that people SHOULD commonly expect their ecstasy tablets to be adulterated with amphetamines, or worse, piperazines, ketamine, RC stimulants, and whatnot. Looking at those statistics, you'd be naïve at the very least, if not foolish, to expect your ecstasy to contain only MDMA.
 
but anyway that last one was directed at some one else the whole mth/amph shit. ur an alright bloke
 
I can't get pills and I live in the UK. You get people trying to sell you them at raves, but I only have dealers for mdma and luckily pretty damn pure stuff. Although thats not the case for a lot of people I know, kids I went to school with claim to regularly drop quarter grams as their starting dose. I've told them time and time their not getting mdma, do they listen? No they just think I'm trying to act cool by BSing... *sigh.... Once sorted someone out for half a gram asa favour because they couldn't get any and got an angry text saying "fuck you this isn't mdma you cut that with coke"....

Why would anyone do that...? Also it was literally just one big rock. The stupidty of some people.....
 
As MDMA itself is neurotoxic

MDMA in safe doses is far from neurotoxic. Only in overdose has neurotoxicity been found in mice, rats, and monkeys.

MDMA is an amphetamine itself, mixing it with an another amphetamine in theory could increase affinity to norepinephrine. In practice when MDMA is taken with small doses of methamphetamine such as those found in adulterated ecstasy tablets (which many users enjoy), the user can sometimes reap the positive effect of both drugs, but also the negatives of methamphetamine such as jaw/muscle clenching, overstimulation and a nasty comedown. If the methamphetamine dose is slightly too high, then the MDMA will be overpowered.

Personally I find MDMA to be much cleaner and more enjoyable than methamphetamine. MDMA is probably the only stimulant I've come across which when pure, can provide a great afterglow and allows the user to fall asleep on the comedown. I don't see why you would want to tamper with that.
 
In practice when MDMA is taken with small doses of methamphetamine such as those found in adulterated ecstasy tablets (which many users enjoy), the user can sometimes reap the positive effect of both drugs, but also the negatives of methamphetamine such as jaw/muscle clenching, overstimulation and a nasty comedown. If the methamphetamine dose is slightly too high, then the MDMA will be overpowered.

True. However, "amphetamine" or "speed" has different meanings in different countries - for most of Europe, I daresay, "amphetamine" or "speed" refers to 'ordinary' amphetamine, a-methylphenethylamine - methamphetamine, N-methylamphetamine, is almost always referred to as meth. In countries where amphetamine is the dominant stimulant and meth a rarity, the amphetamine found in ecstasy pills will almost always be this.

Meth, in my opinion, would be a horrible addition to an ecstasy pill, as taken orally it has a very long duration, and its strong effects can indeed overpower the MDMA. It is also more potently neurotoxic.

Personally I find MDMA to be much cleaner and more enjoyable than methamphetamine. MDMA is probably the only stimulant I've come across which when pure, can provide a great afterglow and allows the user to fall asleep on the comedown. I don't see why you would want to tamper with that.

I disagree, but that depends on what you mean by 'cleaner'. The immediate comedown isn't as harsh, but a small dose of methamphetamine, to me, feels more clean in the sense that it is mostly clear-headed central stimulation. Larger doses produce euphoria and more peripheral stimulation, which no longer feels very clean - starts to feel quite toxic.
MDMA also feels quite 'poisonous' subjectively to me too, at least at larger doses, or if I've taken it in the recent past. I'm talking about pure crystalline MDMA here, not pills. Not only does it produce jaw/muscle clenching at larger doses, but I get an unpleasant psychological crash (compared to the more physical methamphetamine crash), followed by bouts of depression some 2-4 days after, colloquially known as the "Tuesday Blues", although this is preceded by a mild positive afterglow, if use has not been excessive. The fact that I can fall asleep on the comedown I would chalk up to it not being a very potent stimulant - MDMA on its own, particularly at larger doses, feels more sedative than stimulating, though during peak effects sleep is impossible.

Plain old amphetamine, particularly dextroamphetamine, is far cleaner than MDMA in my opinion: there are no psychedelic effects, no euphoria, just increased wakefulness, focus, energy, motivation. I also experience just about no comedown unless I go on a long binge; the comedown merely consists of peak effects having ended, but still not being able to fall asleep.

For these reasons, I would want to tamper with MDMA to use it as a party drug by combining it with a stimulating substance (amphetamine or a particularly stimulating psychedelic like LSD) because it makes me active and want to dance, and amplifies the pleasure of dancing greatly. If I'm using it in a chill-out or sexy-time setting, I take larger doses of MDMA and leave out the stimulant.
 
In a single recreational dose of MDMA vs a single equipotent dose of amphetamine (assuming you mean phenylisopropylamine) vs a single equipotent dose of methamphatime I really think MDMA is the victor in terms of cleanliness. Even if the MDMA is in crystal (which I use mostly) or crystalline form that is not an absolute indicator of purity.

I think the reason your having sleeping problems is your use of phenylisopropylamine with MDMA and the fact that the MDMA you've had is impure. 'Ordinary amphetamine' which is the dirtiest of all amphetamines commonly found in adulterated ecstasy tablets and has a wide range of negative side effects including the ones you've described and ones that I have always found in amphetamine contaminated tablets and never in MDMA. All of this remains highly subjective because I don't know what your consuming and you don't know what I'm consuming.

Youre right in that dextroamphetamine is synthetically the purest and even methamphetamine in desoxyn is pure. Both in therapeutic doses have few side effects, but you must remember that 100% pure MDMA used in PTSD has very few side effects and the ones that are reported are mostly positive. It's highly unlikely that some governments would approve a substance in the use of PTSD and MDD if it would induce depression for 2-4 days.

MDA can also induce great psychedelic effects in most users.

I'm in agreement with you that many users like some ecstasy tablets which are adulterated with an assortment of ingredients which can alter the high. This comes down to whether or not a user intrinsically prefers the effcts of amphetamine over MDMA which you clearly do. Again this is highly subjective.

If you truly love MDMA then it should be consumed in its purest form with no other active ingredients.
 
In a single recreational dose of MDMA vs a single equipotent dose of amphetamine (assuming you mean phenylisopropylamine) vs a single equipotent dose of methamphatime I really think MDMA is the victor in terms of cleanliness. Even if the MDMA is in crystal (which I use mostly) or crystalline form that is not an absolute indicator of purity.

I think the reason your having sleeping problems is your use of phenylisopropylamine with MDMA and the fact that the MDMA you've had is impure. 'Ordinary amphetamine' which is the dirtiest of all amphetamines commonly found in adulterated ecstasy tablets and has a wide range of negative side effects including the ones you've described and ones that I have always found in amphetamine contaminated tablets and never in MDMA. All of this remains highly subjective because I don't know what your consuming and you don't know what I'm consuming.

We have access to drug testing labs here in the Netherlands, and yes, it has been pure MDMA. Also, I never said I had sleeping problems - just that I can't sleep on it while it's peaking. I can sleep on the comedown, like I said earlier, which I attribute to the fact that it is more empathogenic/psychedelic and only a moderately strong stimulant, compared to amphetamines.

Youre right in that dextroamphetamine is synthetically the purest and even methamphetamine in desoxyn is pure. Both in therapeutic doses have few side effects, but you must remember that 100% pure MDMA used in PTSD has very few side effects and the ones that are reported are mostly positive. It's highly unlikely that some governments would approve a substance in the use of PTSD and MDD if it would induce depression for 2-4 days.

Then why do governments approve (meth)amphetamine for the use of treatment-resistant depression?

MDA can also induce great psychedelic effects in most users.

MDA definitely can, and even MDMA (though this is less common) - though this is far from the crux of what we're getting at here, this is incidentally something that makes it less "clean" in my view than amphetamine, which has essentially a sobering effect.

I'm in agreement with you that many users like some ecstasy tablets which are adulterated with an assortment of ingredients which can alter the high. This comes down to whether or not a user intrinsically prefers the effcts of amphetamine over MDMA which you clearly do. Again this is highly subjective.

If you truly love MDMA then it should be consumed in its purest form with no other active ingredients.

Depends on what you're looking for. I don't truly love MDMA, I think it's a decent drug, but I prefer it in isolation for the enjoyment of music and another person's company, but in conjunction with stimulants as a party drug.

IMPORTANT ADDITION: The comedown from MDMA the first few times I used it was pretty minimal, and I didn't get the "Tuesday Blues" - it's just that afte using it tens of times, the side effects have gotten worse.
 
MDMA can't be used for depression as you can't take it long term. If you take a low dose or a high dose repeatedly over a week, it will lose its efficacy and would be very neurotoxic to say the least. You can however keep on dosing methamphetamine over a long period of time daily without it losing its therapeutic potential or effects at all.

In my opinion MDMA wouldn't be a candidate for use in people suffering from depression or PTSD. The problems associated with its use even once are problematic - you will feel great one day, try to take it the next and it will do nothing. How depressing is that if you're already extremely depressed?
 
We have access to drug testing labs here in the Netherlands

Everyone can send their product to a lab, that's unnecessary, just buy a test kit.

Then why do governments approve (meth)amphetamine for the use of treatment-resistant depression?

What's your point, I clearly said that desoxyn is pure and free of major side effects in therapeutic doses. It can even be used for anhedonia, ADD, and obesity.

I don't truly love MDMA, I think it's a decent drug

Point proven.

it's just that afte using it tens of times, the side effects have gotten worse.

That applies to every drug that mankind consumes including amphetamines.

In my opinion MDMA wouldn't be a candidate for use in people suffering from depression or PTSD. The problems associated with its use even once are problematic

Well your opinion aside, fact is it has proven efficacy not only in PTSD but curing PTSD with narcissistic psychosis in soldiers. This is why it's gaining approval in many nations in Europe and North America. Watch national geographics' piece on MDMA.
 
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A dose of MDMA is neurotoxic, that is a fact. Toxic metabolites like alpha-methyldopamine cause damage by themselves, but a large amount of damage done to serotonin receptors is cause by dopamine type free radicals

The radicals then damage cell walls, reduce the flexibility of blood vessels, destroy enzymes, and cause other molecular damage in the neurological pathways. (Erowid, 2001)


Earlier scientists have suggested that dopamine might be important for initiating the cascade of oxidative stress. However, it needs to be a chemical which is not produced in the brain, but produced systemically, so this seems to rule out dopamine. More recent scientists suggest an MDMA metabolite (such as 3,4-dihydroxy-methamphetamine) may be responsible.


Methamphetamine also largely increases levels of free radicals, and since the MDMA metabolite that is though to be responsible for this is an amphetamine metabolite, it seems likely to me that adding another amphetamine into the mix would greatly increase oxidative stress and the overall neurotoxicity of both drugs.. I practically FRIED my brain with this combo, it's probably one of the worst drug combinations you can take in terms of damage done. That being said, the euphoria is fucking AMAZING




Now, how do you do it safely? You take a lower dose of MDMA (120mg or so) with a LOW dose of speed. For methamphetamine I wouldn't go over 15mg, for pharmaceutical speed (dexedrine) I might go with 20 or 25mg at the MAX, but you want just a very low dose of speed to add on stimulation to the roll. The more speed you take, the worse side effects you get.
 
I think you're misunderstanding me slightly here.

What's your point, I clearly said that desoxyn is pure and free of major side effects in therapeutic doses. It can even be used for anhedonia, ADD, and obesity.

Yes, but you asked why the FDA would approve a drug that can cause 2-4 days' depression (implying, obviously, that they wouldn't). I simply offered another example of a drug that also has adverse effects - specifically depression, as that was my point on MDMA - that they approved for treatment.
I know both are relatively benign at therapeutic doses, but I wasn't speaking specifically of therapeutic use - I was talking about my experiences after recreational use over several years. Depression have followed both from MDMA and methamphetamine use.

Point proven.

What point? That I don't think MDMA is all that? I fail to see how this proves any point; I'm just saying both drugs are liable to cause adverse effects with prolnged recreational use.

That applies to every drug that mankind consumes including amphetamines.

Obviously, that wasn't up for debate.


To sum it up, basically I was just trying to clarify that my experiencing adverse effects is not a result of adultered, impure MDMA (which seemed to be your assumption - correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not looking to argue in the least), but from slightly excessive recreational use. Never said that therapeutic doses would induce bruxism, but 500mg doses with no tolerance would, and repeateldy using it in a short time period led to a comedown as opposed to an afterglow, due to serotonin I assume.
 
^The point that you prefer amphetamine with your MDMA because MDMA is not your cup of tea. I stated that in the post before last. There is no disagreement, many people I know share your point of view and drop speed with their MDMA. The comments about your MDMA being impure are speculative and subjective as I mentioned.

To foley:

Further, there is little evidence for short-term neurotoxicity of ecstasy at recreational doses.

http://www.phar.cam.ac.uk/docs/papers/AJM/2005MortonEcstasyReview.pdf

We do, however, not agree with the authors' conclusion that a single oral dose of 1.7 mg/kg MDMA in humans is likely to cause damage to serotonergic neurons. We think the existing evidence does not support such a conclusion.

http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v21/n4/full/1395356a.html

From a scientific perspective, however, claims about the negative effects of MDMA on dopamine, serotonin and cerebral blood flow, by Drs. Ricaurte, McCann and Dr. Alan Leshner, ex- Director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse, respectively, have either been retracted, shown to contain major methodological flaws, or are clearly misleading.

http://www.maps.org/mdma/rd011604.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retracted_article_on_dopaminergic_neurotoxicity_of_MDMA

^This organization maps is working extensively to approve MDMA assisted psychotherapy in all developed nations.

MDMA Brain Scans Showing Neurotoxicity Discredited

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_neurotoxicity3.shtml

MDMA-induced 5-HT depletions are not necessarily synonymous with neurotoxic damage.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1705495/

The kinetic parameters of enzymes that regulate the formation of neurotoxic metabolites of MDMA differ among species, as does the ability of MDMA to self-inhibit these enzymes and the degree of genetic polymorphisms exhibited by these enzymes. Such features limit allometric scaling across animal models.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15380932

Studies go both ways, but from my research many of the studies that are pro neurodegeneration have limitations and have been discredited. I think the main concern would be hyperthermia causing lack of blood supply/oxygen to the brain, in turn oxidative stress. This only occurs in a warm setting mixed with dehydration.
 
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If you truly love MDMA then it should be consumed in its purest form with no other active ingredients.

Lol. So people who like to smoke weed, do k or ghb or anything else don't truly love mdma, they're just fakin'!

Secondly in Britain speed means vanilla amphetamine, if at any point I want to combine meth and mdma, I will use the term "meth".

Thirdly I have to agree that mdma does not feel clean, or at least definately not any more, it's hard to tell since I didn't really pay attention to it when I first started using it. I was more preoccupied with telling everyone my biggest life problems and telling people they were awesome. Nowadays it definately feels more psychedelic and less clean. It used to kind of feel like on mdma that that was how conciousness and reality should be like all the time. Now it feels like I'm tripping rather than percieving things as they are. Definately felt cleaner with the speed mixed in.

Now, how do you do it safely? You take a lower dose of MDMA (120mg or so) with a LOW dose of speed. For methamphetamine I wouldn't go over 15mg, for pharmaceutical speed (dexedrine) I might go with 20 or 25mg at the MAX, but you want just a very low dose of speed to add on stimulation to the roll. The more speed you take, the worse side effects you get.

Thanks for answering my question. I never exceed 120mg normally anyway, at least as my initial bomb, I do take dabs during the peak to extend it, but with speed, there was no need to! I personally have never had access to dexedrine or adderall so no clue what my dose was but I'm going to assume (and do correct me if this is a wrong assumption) that it is approximately as potent as ritalin? So intensity of affects at 10mg of ritalin is approximately the same level of intensity of 10mg dexedrine? If that's the case I would same my dose was probably 10mg, 15mg at the most.

What would combing methylone with speed be like? More safe potentially?
 
^I was referring to active ingredients in the tablet itself. If you have combinations that synergize why not. I love ketamine and MDMA, or GHB and MDMA, even heroin on the MDMA comedown.

Your question was regarding safety of combining the two which most people have clearly said it induces neurotoxicity, yet your real question was how to mix the two and get high. Lol!

Edit: Methylphenidate and dextroamphetamine are both stimulants but entirely different in effects. One is like cocaine, the other like methamphetamine. You can never expect the same anything when comparing the two.
 
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Amphetamine whether regular amphetamine or meth when combined with MDMA is deffintly a shitload more neurotoxic... but the euphoria oh god!
 
Your question was regarding safety of combining the two which most people have clearly said it induces neurotoxicity, yet your real question was how to mix the two and get high. Lol!

Edit: Methylphenidate and dextroamphetamine are both stimulants but entirely different in effects. One is like cocaine, the other like methamphetamine. You can never expect the same anything when comparing the two.

I know how to get high using both of them, you just take them until you are high via any ROA. That's not my question, my question is what dosages are reasonably safe. What is the safest way of dosing them?

I know that they act different, but I was saying that I'm going under the asssumption that they are of more or less equal potency in terms of intesnity of effects seeing as I have no experience with pure amphetamines and I needed to a way of describing my dosage of my street speed which is of fuck knows what purity.

If there are stimulant other than amphetamine that would be safer to combine mdma with? Methylphenidate is too short acting to use. Also worst comedown of any drug I've ever used.
 
Well to gain the maximum euphoria from both substances, I liked to take the amphetamine (dexedrine in my case) either when I was peaking, or as the roll started to wear off in gradual increases, 10mg every hour or so. At the peak I used 30mg of dexedrine which was perfect and pure bliss. I had also taken .5mg of Xanax beforehand to mitigate the unpleasant side effects and anxiety which worked a charm. Taking diazepam (not alprazolam) will prevent some neurotoxicity from occurring.

I really don't suggest using methylphenidate with MDMA. What happens is that the MDMA isn't fully put into your system as it blocks uptake of serotonin (I think - its like cocaine) and you need bumps for it to hit. When I did it with cocaine, I'd taken coke before and then tried to roll. It didn't affect me at all. Then when I did more hits of cocaine, sweet mother of Jesus - it felt like I'd been hit with a shitload of MDMA, was gurning like a madman and went cross eyed for the next hour or so. When the coke wore off so did the MDMA, and I had to compulsively redose over and over which was a bad idea. Sent me into psychosis (I was also drinking) and blacked out - cant remember my psychotic episode.

You could try 4-FMA. I haven't tried it personally but it's meant to be less neurotoxic. Methylone would also be a good substitute for the MDMA if you like it, again it's less neurotoxic and you can combine it with amphetamines more safely. Could try ephedrine, but that's not really euphoric at all. Frankly if you want to experience the high use dexedrine and MDMA. Sure it might cause damage but its the best way to enjoy the high to its full potential, and if you don't so it everyday or week or whatever most likely won't cause you that much harm.
 
How does diazepam reduce neurotoxicity :O? Also when you say try 4-fma is less neurotoxic that's a little bit ambiguous, do you mean less neurotoxic than mdma or amphetamine, or when combined with mdma instead of amphetamine, or combined with amphetamine instead of mdma.

Also is 4-fma legal in the UK?
 
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