• 💊 OTHER DRUGS 💊 Welcome Guest
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
    Notable Threads 1 Notable Threads 2
    Dangerous Combos Addiction Support
    Emergency Services Benzo Guide v.1
    Addiction Stories Scary Case Studies
    Biology, Pharmacology & Drugs 101
  • Select Your Topic Then Scroll Down
    Alcohol Bupe Benzos
    Cocaine Heroin Opioids
    RCs Stimulants Misc
    Harm Reduction All Topics Gabapentinoids
    Tired of your habit? Struggling to cope?
    Want to regain control or get sober?
    Visit our Recovery Support Forums

Heroin Is it possible to experience heroin withdrawal despite being on suboxone maintenance?

D

dce_edu

Greenlighter
Joined
Jun 13, 2016
Messages
6
Hi everyone, Im new to bluelight (been checking out the forums for years but this is my first post).
So i am on a sub maintenance regimen- 2 and a half 8mg strips a day (just started 3 weeks ago). Sometimes i use heroin even though I am on suboxone. Some people say the sub completely blocks it, but i don't think this is the case at all. It doesn't have the full effect, but I'd say about 80%.
Anyway, I did about a bundle a day for the last 5 days. Before I started taking the subs, this would've given me pretty bad withdrawal for the next few days. My question is will the suboxone make it so I don't feel any withdrawal, or will I still experience some discomfort?
Any help is appreciated! Thank you very much.
 
It shouldn't. Subs are opioids (partial). That's why you are on it. It's just swapping one for the other basically. It's like being on MMT.
 
It shouldnt meaning I shouldnt feel any withdrawal? Thanks for your fast response
 
I'm on subs, at that dosage you shouldn't feel any withdrawals at all, I'd say try one 8mg strip and increase every hour until withdrawals stop.
 
I'd imagine there'd be no withdrawals - suboxone acts somewhat like methadone in that it has agonist AND antagonist properties, meaning it attaches to the opioid receptor (like heroin) but also sorta blocks same receptor (that's why the effect of the H is lessened). Altho, if you keep using H you may increase your opioid tolerance, and may eventually need to increase your Sub dose....
 
Be careful about using on top of suboxone. There is still a threat of overdose at the levels of opiates one must take to overpower the suboxone.
 
When I switched over from short acting opiates to sub after waiting 84 hours I was in withdrawals for the first 10 days. The more I used and switched back and forth between Sub and regular opiates the sicker i was during induction and for a week afterward. So ya it's possible for the sub to not completely hold you but after a few days to a week you should be fine. The more you use and switch back and forth between the two the harder it gets. After the 7th time I just stayed on Sub as I was sick of the induction process.
 
^I think if you keep fucking around using your DOC and taking subs flipping back and forth like that, you aren't transitioning at all you're just flirting with the idea and torturing yourself in the process, and ultimately screwing any chance of transitioning AND lets face it....you're not ready to stop getting high, it's that situation that creates these stories of being sick or not being held by "my sub dose" for a week. Bullshit, it can be done in the morning. Two things I know about Suboxone is first - you should, if done correctly, have a seamless no WD transition and Second - you aren't getting high on opioids or opiates anymore, you will require different drugs like amphetamines.
 
I really don't see someone who takes 20mgs of subs a day experiencing any withdrawals symptoms, but I wouldn't say it could be impossible if you used very large amounts of heroin everyday and that tolerance surpassed that of the suboxone. Still I would think the withdrawals would be very light if that were the case.
 
SKR said:
^I think if you keep fucking around using your DOC and taking subs flipping back and forth like that, you aren't transitioning at all you're just flirting with the idea and torturing yourself in the process, and ultimately screwing any chance of transitioning AND lets face it....you're not ready to stop getting high, it's that situation that creates these stories of being sick or not being held by "my sub dose" for a week. Bullshit, it can be done in the morning. Two things I know about Suboxone is first - you should, if done correctly, have a seamless no WD transition and Second - you aren't getting high on opioids or opiates anymore, you will require different drugs like amphetamines.
Click to expand...
For me there was a big "seam" too in the form of precipitated withdrawals which are the worst IMO (I was reduced as a grown man to crying and begging for my mommy to the walls of my apartment )
 
I think a lot of this has to do with tolerance and the ceiling effect. If your tolerance is above the ceiling effect of buprenorphine or the 60-80 mg mark of methadone then you will likely take a few days to a week to get used to the lower sub dose. Even if you take 16-24 mg of bupe if your tolerance is over the 80 mg methadone mark the sub will not completely hold you for the first 3-10 days. Really if your tolerance is over the 40 mg methadone mark the transition can be difficult. Sub never used to hold me or my friends. I had to taper way down before I experienced a so called "smooth" transition onto bupe. For people who have not been using as long it will be easier but don't worry that will pass with time.
 
SKR said:
^I think if you keep fucking around using your DOC and taking subs flipping back and forth like that, you aren't transitioning at all you're just flirting with the idea and torturing yourself in the process, and ultimately screwing any chance of transitioning AND lets face it....you're not ready to stop getting high, it's that situation that creates these stories of being sick or not being held by "my sub dose" for a week. Bullshit, it can be done in the morning. Two things I know about Suboxone is first - you should, if done correctly, have a seamless no WD transition and Second - you aren't getting high on opioids or opiates anymore, you will require different drugs like amphetamines.
Click to expand...

The operative phrase is "if done correctly" - when I started on methadone (in Canada) 15 years ago, I was put on 30 mg / day - the standard starting dose in BC at the time. After that you could go up by 10mg every week until we 'got the balance right' (ahh, science!). After the first two days on 30 mg I went into withdrawals. I went back to the Dr and asked for an increase, he couldn't do anything for a week. I made the kind of pathetic fuss that only a dope-sick addict can make - a little junkie tantrum - no dice. Dr told me either suffer or "top up" with heroin. No shit, he used the phrase "top up". So, as a weird junkie 'act of defiance' I did just that, but I had to fix TWICE my normal amount of dope to "get above" the methadone. After that I "topped up" for a couple months straight, every mornin, and drank my juice in the afternoon, until I finally ran out of means and settled down to 15 years of methadone haze. Maybe things are different now, but it sure wasn't 'done correctly' back then. But yeah, 'tis a dangerous game pushing high doses of an opioid agonist (ie: heroin) in order to overwhelm an opioid antagonist (ie: methadone, or naloxone, the antagonist in Subs) in order to get high. I always found a little methamphetamine went a long way, and it's complimented nicely by the opioids.
 
Suboxone and methadone are different in this respect. With methadone, using on top of it can certainly increase your tolerance causing your methadone dosage to be less effective. With suboxone though, the Buprenorphine has a higher affinity for the receptors, which means it binds tightly to them, not allowing other opiates to occupy them, much like how naltrexone or naloxone or opiate antagonists work. Now if you're taking a dosage of Buprenorphine that does not completely occupy those receptors, or you're shooting heroin of a quality high enough that it can compete at those receptors, then maybe you'd run into some problems with tolerance. But honestly, I doubt you're getting 80% of the effects of the heroin. I've shot dope so many times on top of high dosages of Bupe, like probably thousands and thousands of times, and the amount of times that I was able to get full blown highs from the heroin on top of 16-24mg of Suboxone could be counted on one hand. It's more likely that you forget what 100% full agonist, IV heroin high feels like. You're more likely getting somewhere around 25% of the effects. Anyway, I won't argue with you if you insist that you are getting most of the effects, like I've said, there have been times where I've shot good enough dope, or enough dope that it broke through the subs, but that was really fucking rare.

Anyway, here's the thing, I take it you're taking the Suboxone still everyday, and then shooting dope later in the day correct? Well, if you're not experiencing precipitated withdrawal from the heroin when you take the Suboxone, then you're probably not going to feel withdrawals if you stop using the heroin. And if you do, just increase your dosage of Buprenorphine a little bit.
 
bingey said:
For me there was a big "seam" too in the form of precipitated withdrawals which are the worst IMO (I was reduced as a grown man to crying and begging for my mommy to the walls of my apartment )
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, that's a lil' different, and yes I agree with those folks who are transitioning from methadone to sub, that is recognised as tricky hence the recommended reduction to 30mg 'done before the switch....that whole exercise must be torture especially a fast or rapid taper on methadone.

Actually my Sub Dr reckons the only issues he's had with folks transitions are those on really high doses of codeine. He can't be sure they weren't "fucking around" still trying to use but he says he has seen this as problematic multiple times.
 
After stopping over a gram and a half H habit and waiting 48 hours I switched onto Suboxone some years back. For the first week I was in mild WD's. In turn the 16 mg's of Suboxone did not completely hold me. This was after using for over a decade. It all depends on tolerance. I was just using the 60-80 mg methadone mark because that is what the ceiling dose of bupe is compared to in many IOP facilities including the one I worked at for a number of years. I have had a number of friends not be willing to use Subxone because it clearly did not hold them during the first week of induction after transitioning from H.
 
I just want to clarify, when you're talking about 60-80mg of methadone being the equivalent to the ceiling dose of Buprenorphine, you're talking about an acute dose of methadone right? Because someone who takes 60-80mg of methadone everyday has much more than that dose in their system, and I can't imagine even the highest dose of Buprenorphine being able to maintain someone switching from 80mg of methadone/day.
 
As a dope user doing one or two grams a day 150mg methadone wouldn't even get me completely well and I almost never use it so never had a tolerance. 16mg suboxone wasn't even close to holding me the first week but by the second and third weeks I was feeling good and able to drop 8mg. For a large tolerance I would actually advise going on suboxone even though it will take a week or. More to stabilize. Where as if I took methadone I would still be suffering the same for a while because they can only start you on 30mg anyway and increase 5 or 10mg a week
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top