Is it normal to feel depressed and like life has no meaning after quitting hydro?

johnf0457

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Hi, I'm 23 years old and I had started experiencing with opiates about 3 years ago and since the first time i was hooked... I could never get my hands on many pills so I never did it many days in a row but about 2 months ago that changed... I met someone who got me 80 10/325 hydros and then 50 more and then this girl got me 20 more.. all together 150 of them... I took them all in like a month and a half and always taking them 5,6,8 days in a row and then stopping usually for just one day, which felt like hell... I'm a senior in college in my last semester and this has seriously impacted my grades... Anyway I have had to stop 3 times before now... and each time i felt very depressed and boooored and suicidal when stopping... the first time i stopped for 4 days, then 3, then 4 and now im in my second day cause i have ran out... I'm not feeling that bad this time since i had just stopped 4 day only 6 days ago, but I'm really scared my "friend" will hit me up with more next week... I've spent a lot of my saved money on this shit, and no one knows whats going on with me... I have only 2 people close to me, a friend who knows ive been taking them but thinks i already stopped like 2 weeks ago and the girl who got me the 20 pills, im actually in love with her and i dont want her to think im an addict so ive hid how i feel from her too... she thinks i just take them for fun with no consequences, thats how it started anyway... so is feeling like this normal?.. im terrified ill get more any day now and one i run out again ill be back feeling depressed and wanting to off myself... and at the same time i look at my phone all day waiting to get the call and knowing ill get more...
 
depression can be very severe when withdrawal from opiate/oid use it will pass though try meditation
 
I mainly get bored and feel like idk what to do.. on hydro time would just fly no matter what u were doing.. i had started taking it to work and it made time fly... now all i do is think about this girl im in love with and her fucking boyfriend and i want to kill myself... but i feel like the hydro is making this soooo much worse, normally id be able to deal with this, now i just cant... i feel like crying all the fucking time
 
It's absolutely normal to feel that way after quitting any sort of opioid medicine. Give it time, the withdrawals will pass eventually and you'll be back to feeling great. Unfortunately, there will be a sort of void feeling after quitting, or as you put it that bored feeling since you can't rely on opioids to pass the time. Find something to fill that void, hopefully something creative that you can use to express any feelings you're having while going through this.
 
It's very common to feel that way as your brain hasn't been producing many of its own endorphins over the past month and a half that you've been using opiates and your brain has gotten used to this. Therefore, when you stop taking the pills, your brain is still expecting to be provided with those feel-good chemicals from the pills and when it doesn't get them, things start to go a bit haywire in your brain because it is trying to regain homeostasis thus causing the depression and other symptoms you feel during withdrawal.

The good news for you is that your not too deep in to stop using and turn things around and because you've only been using for a month and a half, it won't take your brain very long to start producing its own endorphins again and you should be feeling a lot better in a relatively short time.

However if you can't tough it out and continue down the path you are going then you can kiss your easy comeback goodbye because as nearly all of those who have been through this before will tell you, things will only keep getting worse. The longer you take opiates, the longer and more difficult it will be to stop and get things back to normal in your head. You said it yourself that your already anticipating that next call saying you can buy more so your already feeling how strong the pull of opiates can be. Save yourself a lot of trouble in the future and give yourself a chance to get back on track.
 
Dude I'm in the same boat as you...almost. I'm 23, I was taking oxycodone and bangin H. I've been using oxy recreationally for almost 5 years and for about the whole month if February I was using H every day. Since it's past midnight I'm technically on my 5th day clean. I've been in a deep deep state of depression and from what others have said, severe separation anxiety. From what lots of ppl here have told me, depression does come with w/ds. It really sucks a fat one, I know. I've wanted to off my self too and it would be very easy for me to do too cuz I got weapons on every room of my house; bows, shotguns, pistols, rifles, blade. But I also have a fiancé I've been with for almost 7 years and a 5 year old daughter. Both have been "taken" away from me for a while. My fiancé is in detox facility(I'm detoxing at home) and my daughter has been removed from my house for the time being by DSS. They're the reason I haven't blown my fucking brains out yet although I've wanted to many times. We've got a lot in common. I feel bored when I'm not using. The days go by so slow. I play CoD or BF to pass the time but it only works for a while. I'm trying to find a job, that will help me a lot.

What we're going through is just part of getting clean. For me it's been the worst symptom. The physical pain isn't shit compared to the emotional shit I'm going through. And what makes it worse is I have no idea when the two loves of my life will be coming home. I'm visiting my fiancé and daughter tomorrow so maybe I'll have a good idea of when she's coming home. I'm terrified that she's on a say "not for another couple weeks". That's gonna be my worse nightmare and I know my depression and sep anxiety is gonna skyrocket.

Just hang in there, the first few days are always the worst. We're always here if you need to talk so feel free to PM or whatever you need to do. From my experience so far, this is an awesome forum with some very awesome ppl. They're all very supportive. Good luck bro!

Oh yeah and listen to what effect has said. It only gets worse. When I first started using oxy I always told myself I would stop when my tolerance got above 15mg, well guess wha; my tolerance stayed at 15mg for around 3 years. So I never quit. I stayed at a 15mg dose until 5 days ago when it quit. Except when my fiancé got her tax return(over $5000) I started doing multiple 30mg oxy's a day plus the H. Your not deep at all so stop while your ahead. This may be the least of your worries but also think of all the aspirin you taken too. Shits not good for your liver. I wasn't much into hydros mostly because my ROA was snorting and is have to take 5 or 6 10mg hydros to feel anything. Once again, good luck! You can kick this shit.

Sorry my reply is so long. I like to talk about this, especially since we've got a lot in common but it also helps to vent:)
 
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I could have posted this same thread near the end of 2008. At that time I had a similar issue with a woman too..

When it comes to 'time flying' I know it seems optimal at the moment but if you ever have to look back you might ask yourself 'what was I thinking?' A lot of opiate users go through this, I remember a guy in detox who just woke up after a period of 12 years of heroin use. He had to deal with the fact that his kids were all grown up and would no longer talk to him. All he could say was 'damn wtf happened?'
 
Thanks a lot for the replies, I wasn't expecting so many people to do so....
I'm ending my 3rd day off today and I'm feeling a lot better already, I was busy all day with work and only have some free time now... I've only felt majorly depressed when I woke up, woke up for the 100th time I should say cause I've been sleeping like absolute shit... I read Restless legs syndrome comes during withdrawal and it finally explains this horrible sensation ive had in my legs every time i've stopped... I now just took methocarbamol to see if it will take it away and let me sleep good...

I used to take all the addiction stuff like a joke thinking it would never happen to me... When I got the first 40 pills i thought i would be smart and only take them during the weekends so i would not get addicted but i started doing it 5,6 days in a row every single time.... I keep on thinking i should buy them one more time and do it smart this time, but i know i should stop, hopefully my "friend" won't hit me up for a while so that when he does i'm fully recovered and can politely tell him to go fuck himself...
Tomorrow I'll be seeing this girl i totally love and i know that will make me feel better, every time i get to see her i dont give a crap about those pills... but i also know i cant have her so then i feel worse too, i have to quit her too, thats the cold truth... I can't do both things
 
Yeah, when I'm in opiate withdrawal everything takes on this gloomy hopeless aspect to it, it's a very unique, horrible form of depression that's very linked with how you're physically feeling...

Even if I watch a comedy, I notice all the dark depressing things....and just feel a million miles away from anything lighthearted or happy! Life itself feels like a torturous burden!

It's actually probably one of the more underrated (as far as shittiness goes) symptoms of opiate withdrawal...it passes though...For me, I think what you're talking about is different than PAWS, and only really lasts a few days past the acute phase...I don't think PAWS related depression is generally quite as bad...
 
Thanks a lot for the replies, I wasn't expecting so many people to do so....
I'm ending my 3rd day off today and I'm feeling a lot better already, I was busy all day with work and only have some free time now... I've only felt majorly depressed when I woke up, woke up for the 100th time I should say cause I've been sleeping like absolute shit... I read Restless legs syndrome comes during withdrawal and it finally explains this horrible sensation ive had in my legs every time i've stopped... I now just took methocarbamol to see if it will take it away and let me sleep good...

I used to take all the addiction stuff like a joke thinking it would never happen to me... When I got the first 40 pills i thought i would be smart and only take them during the weekends so i would not get addicted but i started doing it 5,6 days in a row every single time.... I keep on thinking i should buy them one more time and do it smart this time, but i know i should stop, hopefully my "friend" won't hit me up for a while so that when he does i'm fully recovered and can politely tell him to go fuck himself...
Tomorrow I'll be seeing this girl i totally love and i know that will make me feel better, every time i get to see her i dont give a crap about those pills... but i also know i cant have her so then i feel worse too, i have to quit her too, thats the cold truth... I can't do both things

RLS was one of the hardest things to get over for me, it annoyed the hell out of me. im going on day 6 now and the RLS is barely noticable. now the insomnia is whats getting me, i love to sleep but is almost impossible for me right now and i dont have any meds i could take to help me. the first couple days i had 6 1mg lorazepam's and they kinda helped but im not trying to start taking benzos. i dont wanna be taking anything addictive. but if your "friend" does hit you up than just dont reply or answer his calls. i had my dude text me the other day and i just straight up told him i was getting clean but hes actually a good friend of mine, hes my "hommie" haha so he respects the fact that im getting clean. i sorta feel you on the girl situation. i love my fiance to death and i want to be with her but shes at a detox facility so in a way i cant have her either. shes gonna be there another week and hopefully she'll be home for a day or two afterwards before they can get her a bed at a rehab for a couple weeks. i dont want her to go, im sick of being lonely.

anyways, you hang in there bro. its gets easier

Even if I watch a comedy, I notice all the dark depressing things....and just feel a million miles away from anything lighthearted or happy! Life itself feels like a torturous burden!

yep, same with me. i try to watch something funny but i always find the bad parts. i see couples together, happy, having fun and that what i want but cant have right now
 
Well this is my 4th day clean now and i would say the few physical symptoms i had are gone, except for the RLS... if that is even what it is, its just this weird pain on top of my knee on both legs that doesn't go away unless i move them or unless i hit them....

I was busy at work all day today and now that im home im depressed as fuck again, im really sad about this girl but i feel like im more hurt due quitting... i feel like id be able to deal with this a lot better 2 months ago, in fact i was in pretty much the same situation as now.. I'm off the next 2 days and it scares me to think I'll have so much time on my hands, it makes me even more depressed.. I am not going to lie, not here I already lied to people in real life today, if i could get any pills now, id take them... fuck yes i would take them... i know i should stop but i want this feeling of absolute hopelessness to go away

Yeah, when I'm in opiate withdrawal everything takes on this gloomy hopeless aspect to it, it's a very unique, horrible form of depression that's very linked with how you're physically feeling...

Even if I watch a comedy, I notice all the dark depressing things....and just feel a million miles away from anything lighthearted or happy! Life itself feels like a torturous burden!

This is exactly how i feel.. I was actually happy at work today but the second im alone i feel like blowing my brains out... right now i feel horrible

We can't make you do anything, we can only try to help persuade you to do the right thing but try not to use. Just think about it, the way your feeling will get better. I have been depressed since I quit and have had 6 days of absolutely nothing to do but watch TV and think about how much I miss my fiancé and daughter and wondering when they're coming home. I'm feeling a little better about myself now that I'm heading into the one week clean mark. But if you use now to feel better than the time you've put in has been wasted and you'll have to start all over. The pain and sadness and stuff is just gonna come back. Using will only make it better for a little while.

Keep your head up man, positive thoughts. If you need to talk there's always someone here that will listen and help you. We're here for each other and ourselves

Thanks for replying oxy_ghost and im sure what ur going through is 5000 times worse than what im going through.. you said u used oxy for 5 years and now H so your body and your mind are totally used to feeling awesome... I've only done this a month and a half... I just keep on thinking that if I get them again, knowing how awful it is to stop, that with this knowledge I can force myself to only take them during the weekends which was my original plan that I could never do

But if you use now to feel better than the time you've put in has been wasted and you'll have to start all over. The pain and sadness and stuff is just gonna come back. Using will only make it better for a little while.

I know what you're saying man and this is what i keep on telling myself... every time I've had to stop and i get that horrible depression which makes me feel like i can't breathe i tell myself... never again john, never again...

Boredom is my biggest enemy right now.. Ever since i stopped i have not watched a single movie, episode of a show.. I can't even get the motivation to do that.. i just don't do anything... I still manage to watch soccer thank god, that kills 2 hours but i care about few games.... I've also made myself play fifa a bit but i used to play high for hours and hours so it just reminds me of and i get sad and lose every game hahaha
 
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Well this is my 4th day clean now and i would say the few physical symptoms i had are gone, except for the RLS... if that is even what it is, its just this weird pain on top of my knee on both legs that doesn't go away unless i move them or unless i hit them....

I was busy at work all day today and now that im home im depressed as fuck again, im really sad about this girl but i feel like im more hurt due quitting... i feel like id be able to deal with this a lot better 2 months ago, in fact i was in pretty much the same situation as now.. I'm off the next 2 days and it scares me to think I'll have so much time on my hands, it makes me even more depressed.. I am not going to lie, not here I already lied to people in real life today, if i could get any pills now, id take them... fuck yes i would take them... i know i should stop but i want this feeling of absolute hopelessness to go away

We can't make you do anything, we can only try to help persuade you to do the right thing but try not to use. Just think about it, the way your feeling will get better. I have been depressed since I quit and have had 6 days of absolutely nothing to do but watch TV and think about how much I miss my fiancé and daughter and wondering when they're coming home. I'm feeling a little better about myself now that I'm heading into the one week clean mark. But if you use now to feel better than the time you've put in has been wasted and you'll have to start all over. The pain and sadness and stuff is just gonna come back. Using will only make it better for a little while.

Keep your head up man, positive thoughts. If you need to talk there's always someone here that will listen and help you. We're here for each other and ourselves

I know what you're saying man and this is what i keep on telling myself... every time I've had to stop and i get that horrible depression which makes me feel like i can't breathe i tell myself... never again john, never again...

Boredom is my biggest enemy right now.. Ever since i stopped i have not watched a single movie, episode of a show.. I can't even get the motivation to do that.. i just don't do anything... I still manage to watch soccer thank god, that kills 2 hours but i care about few games.... I've also made myself play fifa a bit but i used to play high for hours and hours so it just reminds me of and i get sad and lose every game hahaha

Yeah I hear ya, boredom gets me too. Once it warms up than my dad is making me get out of the house and do work. We got this big bank behind my house that needs to be cleared of the brush so I'm sure I'll be doing that. And yeah I always played video games when I was high and using but when I would play i would forget I was even high in the first place. it takes my mind completely off of everything except what's on the screen except for when my fiancé would bitch at me and tell me to get off haha. But I started a thread where ppl can post the things they do when they wanna use or when having cravings so once it gets some replys it could be a good place to go for ideas to take your mind off it. It's in the Sober Living forum and called "What do you do"
 
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Yeah I hear ya, boredom gets me too. Once it warms up than my dad is making me get out of the house and do work. We got this big bank behind my house that needs to be cleared of the brush so I'm sure I'll be doing that. And yeah I always played video games when I was high and using but when I would play i would forget I was even high in the first place. it takes my mind completely off of everything except what's on the screen except for when my fiancé would bitch at me and tell me to get off haha. But I started a thread where ppl can post the things they do when they wanna use or when having cravings so once it gets some replys it could be a good place to go for ideas to take your mind off it. It's in the Sober Living forum and called "What do you do"

You say your dad makes you get out of the house so I see they are aware of your problem... My parents have no idea... one time 2 years ago I stole 2 pills and they found out cause they were counting them and looked at me like a fucking monster... I could never tell them, they are old school they wouldn't understand...
I've been close to telling my mom before but never did and I'm glad cause I know I'm not that deep into it and I can still get out, heck I feel like I'm already out... I just hope that my "friend" doesn't hit me up any time soon cause I already know what my answer will be
 
The pleasure that drugs give you when you start using them regularly, really drastically changes the way you experience life when you're not high...It creates an emptiness inside of you that keeps growing...

Sooner or later, the emptiness gets so big that you barely experience any joy or pleasure from normal, real-life things...School, work, hobbies, things you were passionate about...all seem like chores you have to endure between getting high...And worst of all, it will even do this to relationships, and make them feel like a chore...

Eventually, even getting high doesn't excite you anymore...and that's when you're really screwed...That's when you stop and slowly start to feel human again, or look for stronger drugs...

Despite opiates being really addictive and potentially dangerous, one of their saving graces is that you can bounce back from them, they're not super damaging to your body or mind...Whereas, most stimulants can screw you up permanently, make you crazy, prematurely age you, burn your heart out...etc.
 
The pleasure that drugs give you when you start using them regularly, really drastically changes the way you experience life when you're not high...It creates an emptiness inside of you that keeps growing...

Sooner or later, the emptiness gets so big that you barely experience any joy or pleasure from normal, real-life things...School, work, hobbies, things you were passionate about...all seem like chores you have to endure between getting high...And worst of all, it will even do this to relationships, and make them feel like a chore...
.

Damn man this totally describes how I've been feeling... Honestly my best friend right now is work and i fucking hate my job, but it keeps me occupied and i like the people i work with, some even know I've been doing this... Before this if i had 2 days off I'd be screaming from happiness, now I'm scared of how I will feel that time
This semester, my last semester I have skipped literally every class.. I have a 3.7 GPA and this semester I am barely passing, I hate what these pills have done to me
 
The pleasure that drugs give you when you start using them regularly, really drastically changes the way you experience life when you're not high...It creates an emptiness inside of you that keeps growing...

Sooner or later, the emptiness gets so big that you barely experience any joy or pleasure from normal, real-life things...School, work, hobbies, things you were passionate about...all seem like chores you have to endure between getting high...And worst of all, it will even do this to relationships, and make them feel like a chore...

Eventually, even getting high doesn't excite you anymore...and that's when you're really screwed...That's when you stop and slowly start to feel human again, or look for stronger drugs...

Despite opiates being really addictive and potentially dangerous, one of their saving graces is that you can bounce back from them, they're not super damaging to your body or mind...Whereas, most stimulants can screw you up permanently, make you crazy, prematurely age you, burn your heart out...etc.

Oh yeah, I stopped being a father to my child cuz it felt like a burden to me, I didn't want it to be like that but the drugs made it that way. I never wanted to play with her or do anything but lay around. Eventually I wanted the drugs to feel normal, yeah I wanted them so I could get high but more to feel normal. And yeah it fucked my relationship up with my fiancé, mentally and sexually. We would fight all the time over the stupidest shit like little kids and yell at each other daily. I never hit or touched her though. I would never do that to a women. Our sex life was shit, hardly ever "did it" and at one point she cheated on me. Ever since then I've always been worried about her, where she's going, what she's doing, who she's with. Most of the time i wouldn't let her go anywhere without me except to work and even then I worried. I didn't trust her as far as I could throw her and that's a bad feeling. Every time she earned the slightest bit of trust with me, she did something to fuck it up and all because of drugs.


You say your dad makes you get out of the house so I see they are aware of your problem... My parents have no idea... one time 2 years ago I stole 2 pills and they found out cause they were counting them and looked at me like a fucking monster... I could never tell them, they are old school they wouldn't understand...
I've been close to telling my mom before but never did and I'm glad cause I know I'm not that deep into it and I can still get out, heck I feel like I'm already out... I just hope that my "friend" doesn't hit me up any time soon cause I already know what my answer will be

Yeah my parents know, they didnt freak out too bad cuz they understand addiction. They were coke heads at one point and right now my mom is in rehab for Alcohol, Ativan and ambien abuse, she gets out next Tuesday:). But I was on opiates for over 4yrs and after a while you physical appearance changes for the worst and ppl start to notice. My parents first found out a couple years ago when they were being nosy. They got a hold of my phone and went through it and saw my messages. They didn't really do anything until I started stealing from them. I would take their debit cards(which I knew the PIN numbers) and I would take money from their account. I had stolen a few grand from them. They started to notice money going missing and bank statements showing transactions they didn't make. Me and my fiancé were doing it to them and it's something I regret ever doing and feel shitty about it everyday. They made me and my fiancé(gf at the time)go to detox, this detox was strict and they wouldn't let me out until they knew I was stable. So I spent 5 days there and lied to the docs and social works so I could get out. I was still withdrawing. I relapsed the day after I got out cuz we had pay checks waitin on us. So i stated using again but they didn't figure out for a while.

A couple more years passed and I became really lazy and sleeping all day stealing from them again and they started taking notice. I always denied that I was using. A couple times i admitted it cuz I had pawned some of my stuff for drugs and they noticed them gone but i told them I was getting clean and they left it at that. The last month of my use I was banging heroin and they saw the marks on my arms and that was the last straw for them. They started to threaten to take my daughter away and ppl made complaints to DSS that I was shooting up in front of my daughter which is not true cuz she has never seen me stick a needle in my arm. This happened a week ago and now here I am. My daughter has been temporarily removed from my home, I can't see her unsupervised, my parents don't trust me with their lives and half of my moms side of the family hates my guts. I think my moms sister is the one who called DSS in the first place.

I feel like the biggest piece of shit as a son, soon to be husband and father but this is all encouragement to stay clean. If I was still using at this moment, I would never see my daughter again and I'd be living on the streets. But since your not deep into this like I was than I don't see the need for you to tell your parents. Doing that may only make things worse. Get out and stay out so you don't stoop to the level I was at cuz it will happen. I never thought I'd be stealin from the ones I love but I did all because of those little pills. I'm lucky I haven't gone to prison. My cousin was in my situation but was breaking into houses and stealing guns. He went to prison for a few years and just got out in January.

Oh and I just saw your most recent post and needed to add this as well. My fiancé was supporting both our habits. She worked as a server so she would come home with money every time she worked and we would spend it all each day. Then she started to only work weekends. Once Sunday nights would come around I would begin to get scared, no, terrified of the weekdays to come cuz she wouldn't be working except maybe one day durring the week which meant we wouldn't have drugs for a few days unless we found a way to get money, some times she borrowed it. I hated being scared of the week days. It shouldn't be like that.

Sorry my posts are so long but I like to talk about this topic and try to help ppl if I can
 
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OP, I think you would be wise to try to approach this boredom and depression as something that may not just be related to your opiate withdrawals. Even if it is PAWS can last for a very long time and so getting some help to deal with this now will set you in a stronger position for the rest of your life when these emotions occur. I would imagine that your university has counseling services and anything you tell a counselor is confidential. You need to have some support and even more importantly someone that hopefully can give you some strategies for dealing with boredom and lack of motivation as well as depression (the first two may only be symptoms of the latter).

Glad to hear you are still doing well.<3
 
^Absolutely Herbavore, talking it through with someone would most likely help you a lot to process this, and hopefully help you deal with any underlying issues you might have...

A lot of people start using drugs because they're not a hundred percent happy with who they are in the firat place, but continuing to get high makes you feel worse about yourself in the long run..It's kind of a paradox...

All the bad feelings you can cover up with getting high, seem to come back on you two fold when you stop, but it's because the drugs were masking all the shitty emotions going on inside of you that you weren't aware of, but not actually making anything go away or get any better!

It makes you feel like everything is great, while simultaneously turning everything to shit!

Don't drop out of school over pills man, it's hard to go back once you take "time off"..
 
^Absolutely Herbavore, talking it through with someone would most likely help you a lot to process this, and hopefully help you deal with any underlying issues you might have...

A lot of people start using drugs because they're not a hundred percent happy with who they are in the firat place, but continuing to get high makes you feel worse about yourself in the long run..It's kind of a paradox...

All the bad feelings you can cover up with getting high, seem to come back on you two fold when you stop, but it's because the drugs were masking all the shitty emotions going on inside of you that you weren't aware of, but not actually making anything go away or get any better!

It makes you feel like everything is great, while simultaneously turning everything to shit!

Don't drop out of school over pills man, it's hard to go back once you take "time off"..

Na there is no way I'm dropping out of school... I actually just came back from applying for an apartment with my friend so I had a good day and had fun and was able to get excited about something... but once again i get home and start feeling like shit again, i was actually getting sad when i was with my friend anyway... this feeling in my chest came back, i so want those fucking pills...

OP, I think you would be wise to try to approach this boredom and depression as something that may not just be related to your opiate withdrawals. Even if it is PAWS can last for a very long time and so getting some help to deal with this now will set you in a stronger position for the rest of your life when these emotions occur. I would imagine that your university has counseling services and anything you tell a counselor is confidential. You need to have some support and even more importantly someone that hopefully can give you some strategies for dealing with boredom and lack of motivation as well as depression (the first two may only be symptoms of the latter).

Glad to hear you are still doing well.

thank you for answering, i dont feel like typing everything up again... maybe later

oxy_ghost:

I'm sorry to hear all the problems you've had... I hope you're still going strong and won't use again... you got a daughter and a fiance, use that as your motivator man, i dont think there could be a better reason to stop....

My only reason to stop is that its wrong.. and well money also cause i dont get them cheap
 
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