Is it foolish to call God, “Father”?

[Tromps]

Why would you or I need a savior?

What have you or I done to merit hell?

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Rom 3:23

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? 1 Corinth 6:9

Nothing impure will ever enter it. Rev 21:27

The righteousness of God is through faith in Jesus Christ. Rom 3:22

Unrighteousness/evil is anything against God, anything morally wrong, whether it's murder, rape, lying, stealing, cheating, etc. If God were to stop evil, should he stop all evil or just a little bit of it? If he stops us from doing evil things, what about lying, or what about our evil thoughts? Where do you stop, the murder level, the lying level, or the thinking level? If he eliminates evil he has to stop all evil, be consistent, not just picking and choosing. That means you and I would be eliminated right? Since we think evil things too. If that's true, we should all be eliminated. Thanks be to God that Jesus stepped in to save us from our evil & sin.

How will you get yourselfinto heaven? On your own merit or via a scapegoat?

By the merits of Christ, but it is also deciding to have faith and live by the Spirit, so it's a combination of working with God and trusting him.

I am not an atheist but Satanand Christians want atheists to embrace barbaric human sacrifice and the notionthat we should profit from punishing the innocent instead of the guilty.Scapegoating IOW. In reality, if God did demandsuch a barbaric sacrifice, he would be sinning as we all know that it isimmoral to kill the innocent. God knows this yet Christians do not seem to. Youdo. Right? Those with good morals willknow that no noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a son just toprove it's benevolence.

Which Christians are embracing 'barbaric human sacrifice?' God didn't murder or kill Jesus, mankind did. Jesus is fully man and fully God, he freely chose to lay down his life. You don't need to feel bad for him. He rose back to life and holds the universe in his palm!

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20

We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live in new life. Since we have been united with him in his death, we will also be raised to life as he was. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we know that we will also live with him. Rom 6:4-8

When you die, Satan will ask you; how was your ticketto heaven purchased? With innocent blood? ]If and when you say yes, youbecome his.

When I die satan won't ask me anything. satan can't touch me. When you take hold of the authority and power of Christ living in you, satan falls down and shrinks. The demons run and flee.

When Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a demon-possessed man from the town. When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell down before Him, shouting at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don't torture me!" Luke 8:28

God paid the price for us to enter his heaven. Our responsibility is acknowledging our sin, evil nature, and turning away from it.

The Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many. Matt 20:28

They overcame by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony. And they did not love their lives so much that they were afraid to die. Rev 12:11

The other option inscriptures, a moral one, is shown here. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slackconcerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering tous-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come torepentance.

The one thing God won't do is intrude on your free will. The Spirit will lead you, guide you, direct you, counsel you, give you insight, give you wisdom, give you discernment, etc, but God won't act for you. He's not going to force anyone to repent.

Choose this day whom you will serve. Joshua 24:15

Scriptures indicate that Godprefers repentance to sacrifice and as God’s will is supreme and cannot bethwarted, this will come to pass.

You are right God prefers repentance to sacrifice because there is no more need of sacrifice. In the old covenant the sacrifice for sin was the blood of an unblemished male lamb. Sin demands death. Because the people couldn't keep the law, God came in human form and Jesus's blood was the ultimate once and for all sacrifice for sin. He is the unblemished male lamb, symbolically of course. I didn't decide this, God did, and you're right to say his will is supreme.

Christians have an insaneview of love, IMO.

Unconditional love is insane to a certain degree isn't it? Even when someone treats you horribly, you may be angry with them, but you still love them. Logically it makes absolutely no sense.

Would you express your lovefor humanity or those you love by having your own child needlesslymurdered? Or if convinced that asacrifice was somehow good, would you have the moral fortitude to step upyourself to that cross instead of sending your child?

When you understand that it was God who bore the cross you will realize his love for us. We are all children of God. Would you lay down your life for your children?

"I am the good shepherd. I know my sheep and my sheep know me. Just as the Father knows me and I know the Father. I lay down my life for the sheep." John 10:15

"If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus replied, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?" John 14:7-10

"My sheep listen to my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. The Father and I are one." John 10:27-30

Once you start to believe in the risen Christ, and meditate on the mysteries of God, the Spirit will help you to understand the reality of the trinity.

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

You end with the Jesus as shepherd analogy that show how hard Jesus will work to save all his souls and yet do not have the faith required to know that he will make this come to pass.
1 Timothy2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of thetruth.

Oh well. keep your poor morals till death. It won't really matter to God.

As to his not having Jesus murdered.

Do try to think of your God's plan.

I know from above that you lack the morals, logic and reason for a decent judgement but this clip might help.
If not, reply required.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ott15j2KwQ&feature=related

Regards
DL

 

[infectedmushroom]

No. God is dad. And incidentally, dead. Which means were all bastards. Geddit?

 

[motiv311]

I haven't been able to keep up with this whole forum, but let me offer one point....

If I was to create a world (basically an experience) and put actual beings with feelings and emotions and experiences of their own within the experience, wouldn't it be fair to say that I wouldn't be a good God unless I went through the ENTIRE experience myself first? I.E> Jesus is one with the Father, in a mystical debatable way, but God manifest on the earth- walked a human life- during the hardest part of our history under domination of Roman Rule; and then experienced the pain and suffering and sin of every person who had and would ever live.... and then finally crucified and tortured to death. ALL THAT would be necessary in order for people to not feel victimized by their own creation.

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

I haven't been able to keep up with this whole forum, but let me offer one point....

If I was to create a world (basically an experience) and put actual beings with feelings and emotions and experiences of their own within the experience, wouldn't it be fair to say that I wouldn't be a good God unless I went through the ENTIRE experience myself first? I.E> Jesus is one with the Father, in a mystical debatable way, but God manifest on the earth- walked a human life- during the hardest part of our history under domination of Roman Rule; and then experienced the pain and suffering and sin of every person who had and would ever live.... and then finally crucified and tortured to death. ALL THAT would be necessary in order for people to not feel victimized by their own creation.

That would be a judgement call on God's part.

Is God a just judge?

This speaks of Jesus.
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but wasrevealed in these last times for your sake.

The above quote shows this as Gods first actual judgement andshows his setting and accepting a bribe of a human sacrifice to corrupt oralter his justice and judgement.

Justice usually states that only the punishment of theguilty is acceptable to justice and that it would be unjust to punish theinnocent.

God’s corruption of this usual justice is what the bribe orsacrifice of Jesus bought. Injustice.

If you elect your judges in your country, would you vote Godin as a fair and just judge knowing that he can be bribed?

Is God a just judge?

Regards
DL

 

[Japhy]

I think if you are referring to God as separate from creation, then calling him Father would be logically appropriate, given that the Universe is our Mother.

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

I think if you are referring to God as separate from creation,

Christians do.

then calling him Father would be logically appropriate, given that the Universe is our Mother.

My mother was a woman. I thought everyone had a human mother. Oh well.

Is it logically appropriate to capitalize father when speaking of a God who had his son needlessly murdered? Why would one want top honor such a God with a capital F Father? A
s if he were somehow more moral or desirable than a normal non-son murdering lower case f father.

Regards
DL

 

[Tromps]

You still haven't answered me as to why you claim the bible is a myth (false, full of lies), yet turn around and use bible verses left and right that you believe are true.

Let me ask you some things, since you seem to believe Jesus existed.
Do you believe he was crucified by the Romans?
Do you believe he was risen back to life?

If you believe he was crucified and was not resurrected, what happened to the body? There wouldn't have been a reason for anyone to take the body and hide it. The disciples wouldn't have taken his body, hid it, then gone forth preaching the resurrected Christ even to the point of death for a lie that they knew would bring persecution and torture. The Jewish leaders, nor the Romans wouldn't have taken the body and kept it a secret. Since people were revolting and spreading a new message that the Romans and religious Jews didn't want in their culture, they could have simply shown Jesus's dead body to his followers to stop them.

I also want to ask, do you believe in an afterlife? If so, please explain and describe it to the best of your knowledge, and what the source for your belief is.

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

You still haven't answered me as to why you claim the bible is a myth (false, full of lies), yet turn around and use bible verses left and right that you believe are true.

If you need to be convinced that a book that begins with a talking serpent and ends with a seven headed monster is not a book of myths then there in nothing I can say to penetrate that delusional mind set.

I do not ever say that things in scriptures are true. I say that they are myths with messages and sometimes that message is quite clear even from a literal POV.

Let me ask you some things, since you seem to believe Jesus existed.

False right off the bat. Gnostic Christians view all Gods and scriptures as myths. As Universalists we have to. No one God is allowed, so to speak, to be supreme because that would be idol worshipping.

Do you believe he was crucified by the Romans?

Impossible to say as Jesus was a common name back then and even if Rome had records of such a situation, we could not know if it was the miracle working Jesus. Remember though that the Jewish messiah was to return and rule. Note that most Jews reject the traditional Roman created Jesus. They knew their freedom fighter would not become a Roman boot licker.

Do you believe he was risen back to life?

No. Dead men do not walk and no theology should be based on human sacrifice and it's adherents profiting from God having his son murdered to appease his own wrath. That is a ridiculous proposition to begin with.

If you believe he was crucified and was not resurrected, what happened to the body?

Who knows and who cares. He would be just another dead man.

There wouldn't have been a reason for anyone to take the body and hide it. The disciples wouldn't have taken his body, hid it, then gone forth preaching the resurrected Christ even to the point of death for a lie that they knew would bring persecution and torture. The Jewish leaders, nor the Romans wouldn't have taken the body and kept it a secret. Since people were revolting and spreading a new message that the Romans and religious Jews didn't want in their culture, they could have simply shown Jesus's dead body to his followers to stop them.

We have no way to know what happened. The only half way plausible rendition, one of many, is that Jesus was entombed by mistake in the wrong tomb. Speculation is that Joseph of Arimathea had more than one ready.

I also want to ask, do you believe in an afterlife? If so, please explain and describe it to the best of your knowledge, and what the source for your belief is.

I do believe that life continues for our consciousness. The source is my apotheosis which give no proof for others. Unfortunately.

The afterlife to me is just our consciousness that uploads, if you will, in what I found. What some call a cosmic consciousness.

It happens that science may be close to proving it's existence. It is not a miracle working entity and makes no demand from man. I do not think it can and that the only interaction it can have with us is if we find it. Perhaps that is why Jesus pushed seeking God so hard.

http://vimeo.com/26318064

If this clip and what it shows is believable to you, then what I say might be as well, but if it is too far out there for you then I guess I would be as well.

Regards
DL

 

[Xorkoth]

I see a lot of mentions in here of original sin. I don't buy that, I think it's an idea created for social control. Is it really sensible to think that god created one human, fully evolved into a modern human, who existed in a magical garden, and then he decided to create a woman for that man from his rib, and then when the woman was tricked into eating the fruit that god for some reason decided to make a rule not to eat, all humans from then on are born sinners? That reeks of mythology, it reeks of social control through fear and shame, and it reeks of the control of women by men (because it was woman's fault). All powerful tools for keeping people in line.

I didn't read the last couple of pages of this thread, I started at the beginning, so apologize if that's not being mentioned anymore. But I still had to say it.

 

[Smoky]

Depends on how one defines these concepts that are unique and personal to each person's choice. What simply 'is' … might be foolish to one but not to another. Is there a right or wrong answer?

 

[Japhy]

I'm a newbie to the BL philosophy boards, so I don't particularly know where each of you guys are coming from, but yes, I agree with you, Mr. DL, that every human came out of a female (except for that British guy who gave birth, but he was genetically a woman from the beginning too).

Anyway, I wasn't referring to the Biblegod in the first place, but apparently you are.

I was more specifically referring to a nameless G-d which is separate from Creation (NOT necessarily Biblegod, but more of a Deist Creator-God). When a mother gives birth, her child is basically a part of her, thus the Universe taking on the role of Mother. A child is not actually composed of the father's body, but is programmed with his information via sperm insemination.

By the way, I consider myself a Gnostic also, but not a Gnostic Christian. Such a term seems like an oxymoron to me (like saying you're a Buddhist Mormon). Can you explain? Or at least direct me to a thread which already does?

 

[Japhy]

When you understand that it was God who bore the cross you will realize his love for us. We are all children of God. Would you lay down your life for your children?

I find it metaphysically difficult to believe that merely ONE son, dead for THREE days, could propitiate the sins of the entire world. Also, hell is supposedly eternal. Therefore, for an equal propitiation to be made, Jesus would have to spend eternity there. Besides, "the path is narrow," and given a Calvinistic view of Christianity, we are ultimately condemned to God's wrath unless for some odd reason, he decides to pick one of us to save. Sounds like a parent who drowns two of her three children in the bathtub after they were rude to her, and then, out of infinite mercy, spares the third.

Once you start to believe in the risen Christ, and meditate on the mysteries of God, the Spirit will help you to understand the reality of the trinity.

As a former Christian (and thus in a spirit of understanding), I feel I know why this works. It's the same reason that acupuncture works so well for people who believe in acupuncture, but not so well for those who don't. It's also why Allah, Jesus, Shiva or Joseph Smith come to certain people in dreams, and not to others.

 

[Tromps]

I find it metaphysically difficult to believe that merely ONE son, dead for THREE days, could propitiate the sins of the entire world. Also, hell is supposedly eternal. Therefore, for an equal propitiation to be made, Jesus would have to spend eternity there. Besides, "the path is narrow," and given a Calvinistic view of Christianity, we are ultimately condemned to God's wrath unless for some odd reason, he decides to pick one of us to save.

You can scrap Calvinism right off the bat. I'm not interested in debating denominations, lets stick to what the Word actually says.

You find it "metaphysically difficult" for God to do what he did? If God is GOD he can do anything. God isn't bound by any laws of physics. He created them. He is above everything, higher and stronger than the most powerful forces in the universe.

"Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all mankind. Nothing is too difficult for me." Jeremiah 32:27

"For nothing is impossible with God." Luke 1:37

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

You can scrap Calvinism right off the bat. I'm not interested in debating denominations, lets stick to what the Word actually says.

You find it "metaphysically difficult" for God to do what he did? If God is GOD he can do anything. God isn't bound by any laws of physics. He created them. He is above everything, higher and stronger than the most powerful forces in the universe.

"Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all mankind. Nothing is too difficult for me." Jeremiah 32:27

"For nothing is impossible with God." Luke 1:37

Yet this powerhouse God can't even reproduce without a human womb.

Tell us again just how great this God is compared to humans who can reproduce.

Tell us how a God like yours, can be a good God, when his first judgement was set only after he demanded a sacrifice or bribe to alter his original just judgement?

He is not only not Omni-anything, he is quite immoral.

Is God a just judge?

This speaks of Jesus.
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but wasrevealed in these last times for your sake.

The above quote shows this as Gods first actual judgement andshows his setting and accepting a bribe of a human sacrifice to corrupt oralter his justice and judgement.

Justice usually states that only the punishment of theguilty is acceptable to justice and that it would be unjust to punish theinnocent.

God’s corruption of this usual justice is what the bribe orsacrifice of Jesus bought. Injustice.

If you elect your judges in your country, would you vote Godin as a fair and just judge knowing that he can be bribed?

Is God a just judge?

Regards
DL

 

[Tromps]

What made God fully human was being convieved in the womb, developing in the womb, having been born, raised as an infant, and fully grown into a man. Do you think he would be human if he came down down from heaven without going through the process of conception and birth? That would make him more like an alien. He wouldn't have had a real human experience without starting as a child in the flesh.

And who would God bribe? Most of what you brought up has already been answered and not just by me. Again, God didn't demand or force Jesus to be crucified. He was chosen out of his willingness. Just as Mary was chosen as the mother of Jesus because of her willingness and submission to God's will. Before the world began God saw everything in time, and he knew who to chose. Jesus was completely willing to surrender to God, even if it meant his life. Therefore, his spirit dwelt with God as one since the beginning and God bestowed on him the name above all names and all authority in heaven. That's what I choose to believe and I'm sticking to it. I don't know it all and never will, I don't need to waste my enegry trying to understand it all.

What I do know is God has changed my life in drastic ways for the better and without God I would still be a homeless, drug addicted bum with no hope or meaningful purpose. My experiences in God's presence and moments of enlightenment, awe, joy, love, peace, serenity, visions for my future with a fruitful life, getting glimpses of real heaven/paradise with Christ, I could go on... Has given me assurance that he is real and lives within me. It's something I can't even ignore anymore that I tried to at first, once you really commit yourself to Christ he's never letting go. And that's the hope that keeps me going. You can argue with my theology but you can't argue with my testimony. I may be weak, I may not be all that smart, not have very much, but Christ is all I need, and ever will need. He has shown me who he is, who I am, and what he gives, that nothing on this world has been able to or can offer.

If you think he's immoral or I'm immoral I don't even care. I know who I am. You've been presented with the gospel, the choice is yours.

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

If you think he's immoral or I'm immoral I don't even care. I know who I am. You've been presented with the gospel, the choice is yours.

I know that you do not care about your morals or soul.

Follow your Satanic genocidal son murderer to his home. Hell.
Ignore that your God takes bribers to corrupt his justice.

Regards
DL

 

[Tromps]

I know that you do not care about your morals or soul.

Follow your Satanic genocidal son murderer to his home. Hell.
Ignore that your God takes bribers to corrupt his justice.

Regards
DL

Here's a big God Bless You and have a nice day.

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

Here's a big God Bless You and have a nice day.

No thanks.

I do not accept blessings from such a vile God nor his followers who morals have been corrupted by their beliefs.

Don't forget that only Satan would ask for a human sacrifice to change his verdict.

Regards
DL

 

[Tromps]

Don't forget on that Last Day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

None will have an excuse on the day of judgement, not even one.

"So my advice is, leave these men (Christians) alone. Let them be. For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. However, if it is from God, you will not be able to stop them. You will only be found fighting against God." Acts 5:38-39