Is it any less 'noble' for us to rely on drugs than for the classic shamens?

[Harambulus]

I know there is often this sort of underlying 'judgement' that it is bad to have to use drugs to enjoy life and enjoy the certain states life has to offer.

The prohibitionist christian ethic notwithstanding I too have wondered this myself. I don't want to be having to rely on drugs all the time to have a good time, but in saying that I don't think the shamans do either, at least not in a day to day sense am I right?

It is said like meditation and yoga etc. are the 'only true paths to enlightenment' and that taking drugs is seen as a dirty and poorman's way to achieve it and it is not lasting for this very reason. I think that is sort of true from my experience but not so simple. For instance taking drugs every day would be no good but what I've found is drugs allow me to point a microscope (to use a term from Allen Watts) on the states I want and so I can work to achieve them in everyday life through hard work at self actualization.

The shamans use these substances on special occasions for a 'spiritual knees up' (lol!) to get new insights so they can appreciate life day to day more; at least that is my general, albeit superficial, understanding of it.

In this sense I think rave culture can be seen in the same sense. I read a part of a book which talked about this but can't remember what it was called (what they put in their wasn't that satisfying or exhausting which is why I haven't recalled it).

Drugs are our way to get back in touch with the Dionysian in us (nothing new as it's been like that for all humanity I guess).

Still formulating these thoughts but wanted to throw it out there for discussion.

 

[G-G]

I would think that some drugs, especially psychedelics (from what I've researched) could be used very well for spiritual purposes like those you mentioned, but the thing is most people don't use them for that.

They take them to get fucked up.

Personally, with my very limited experience with drugs (various opioids, Valium, those are pretty much it) I have found myself appreciating natural (often spontaneous) euphoria and just well-being more often then before I used any drugs recreationally.

Also, when I'm on opiates, I can't help but look at the brighter and more hopeful side of my problems. Personally this results in the problem being simplified and reduced in my mind. It did (so far) have a general positive effect on my life. However, I'm aware this can get out of hand and become self-defeating with abuse, which is why I'm practicing my mental strength (My opiate-free month has only a week and a half left! Woot!).

I hope I'm not too excited lol.

 

[jungleheart]

Yes. It's just judgements. It doesn't mean it is the absolute correct judgement. It is just one or many ones judgement. It means nothing, ultimately. Drugs are incredible. Ask a shaman. Ask me.

 

[batmanplaybaseball]

You've got a good idea when you say that taking drugs could like you see the states that you want so that you could then work toward them in your everyday life. I can't imagine going back through my entire life and taking away all of the drug experiences. It seems to be that people who have never experienced a single drug, you probably know the type as they are always very vocal to the fact, these people seem almost completely turned away from an introspective aspect of life. Dealing with drugs, in your mind, the good and maybe more especially the bad, I believe forces you to think about yourself, forces you to turn inward and see what's going on there.

This doesn't go into your question, that is, is it 'less noble' for the typical western 21st century drug user to use drugs than the shamans. To this I say definitely yes, yes it is less noble because it is almost always less respected.



This can be expanded on to say that it is mostly a consequence of our culture. If you look at all of the modern 'euro-centric' cultures (North Americas, Europe, Australia, and the similar style economies that are blooming everywhere else) the main thing you see is abstraction. Abstraction from the values of living, abstraction from the energy cost of moving a shovel of dirt for ten meters, abstraction from the energy cost of anything. The food is already sitting there waiting for you, as are the automobiles and anything else you can imagine. All you have to do to get at them is spend energy in a separate place (work), whose energy typically goes way up into some stratosphere we call the economy. All of this is supposed to work (although we see it's problems, eh hem, economic collapse, eh hem).

Anyway, what is the point of this, the point is that this economy, this way of living, boosts our standard of living astronomically, and for that it must be commended and cannot be denied to other countries or peoples who are seeking a similar boost in the availability of their basic necessities. The trade off is that we live in a world that we typically cannot fully understand, and that many people cannot understand at all. It makes our minds abstract, abstract to the workings of living. It is in this abstract environment that you introduce your psychedelic drugs. They often just appear to you, just like the bananas the eggplant and the large television. I think that comparing this drug consumption to that of a different style of culture, maybe an indigenous culture where everything adds up (you know how much energy it really takes to grow the food, to procure the materials and build the house), it is less respectable. But it should also be encouraged as it often leads people to discovering the abstract parts of their lives, and at least beginning to work towards making it all line up.

 

[Shambles]

No more or less noble, I'd say. Nobility is not something I would associate with drugs as a positive or negative thing unless in the chemical sense of being inactive which would kinda ruin even the best of 'em beyond repair. No noble drugs for me but know what you mean I think and disagree.

Some shaman absolutely do use the local Goodies purely for recreation - to get fucked up on - despite the kinda outdated "Noble Savage" thing being rather patronising and a bit silly, to be honest. People act like people wherever they live so tend to do similar stuff with the local plant or whatever else that is used in that area and drugs are no different. Some use for personal/religious/spiritual use alone, some use too much and damage themselves severely, some use for anything they find it helps with, some also prefer the getting fucked up cos it just feels good side to the less offensive use just as some do with shrooms or basically all western psyches. Certain shaman noticed that smoking DMT is insanely euphoric a very long time ago and the evils of pleasure is more a Western/Christian oddity so are not loaded with useless guilt and like to make use of it for pure pleasure just as many others do cos it's extremely pleasurable.

No difference either way you look at it, in my opinion. People use drugs for many purposes and all are perfectly legitimate... aside from use to kill others and general Badness cos that is just wrong without need for being told so by deities to point it out. If not harming others (ideally not yourself either as far as possible) it is legitimate use.

 

[hobhead]

hippie hippie shakes !

 

[DavisK4high247]

people have been usig drugs of one kind or another for as long as history records and before...in south america evidedce of coca leaf chewing date back 7000 years in a piece of poterry founf showing a god giving them the gift of coca and showed the god chewing coca as well, opium has been used since before the pyramids were bulit,,marijuna and other plants or botanicals with psychoactive properties also,not just for rituals but for everyday use with the most potent drugs being used in rituals by all in a village and the same drugs were mixed with other plants and things to dilute its potency to a still even to cause intoxication for everyday use..not just shamans...shamans were the ones who had the most knowledge of the various intoxicating plants and substances and used them to "talk to god or the gods or pray to the gods or whatver....

 

[batmanplaybaseball]

despite the kinda outdated "Noble Savage" thing being rather patronising and a bit silly, to be honest. People act like people wherever they live so tend to do similar stuff with the local plant or whatever else that is used in that area and drugs are no different.

Not that you were responding to me, but I'd like to respond to you. I agree with you. When I was writing my paragraphs on cultural differences, I wanted to tread carefully so as to not ridiculously glorify the one culture at the expense of the other, in either direction. So I tried to show things through an economic aspect, how the differences in economies of cultures would result in different attitudes or levels of respect, for everything, including drugs. I am not an anthropologist, my girlfriend is though, haha, but she is not here at the moment so I'm going it alone.

I have personally lived with various cultural groups around the world, albeit most of it with European farmers, and I find that people who live close to the land are just generally more respectful of every aspect of their lives, because, as I said, they understand the energy cost involved in every step of the process.

That said, the word shaman actually means very little to me. I'm not sure what type of cultures this is specifically referring to, because I believe that it can come from a number of different cultures. If the culture is a very traditional, agricultural based one, I would say that more respect would be almost implied immediately. Moreover, if this title of 'shaman' requires the popular support for it's election, then this person would be even more likely to be of the character that respects the parts of life essential to respecting the psychedelic experience.

I don't really know though, this is just my 25 cents, very much not definitive.

 

[Harambulus]

I think noble was perhaps the wrong term or rather I think it is the right term in context but not how I see drug use myself.

What I mean is I used the term noble as in my OP I was primarily addressing how our society views drug use vs. how the classic shamans are viewed in their respected culture.

I.e. they are venerated (or maybe they aren't always, perhaps I have a naive understanding of it but it seems they are respected like priests would be in our society (although less so now god being dead and all ) whereas we are seen as dirty druggies. Now this of course depends on what particular substance you are taking and also what you do while on said substance. If for instance someone goes on a crack binge and steals X grands worth of other peoples stuff to fuel it then it would be a hard case to justify it as 'noble' (lol).

However the thing is 'druggies' seem to be all lumped into one category by the general rabble and so 'druggy' (be it, psychonaut, weed smoker, raver) has automatic connotations veering towards said crackhead.

My personal views are that of hedonism and that seeking the most pleasure without doing so by usurping or trampling others is 'the highest good' although that isn't really the topic of this post although it highlights the ignorance of society in general. It does so in that the highest values in western society still seem to be that of the hunter gatherer in that we are blindly hording and hording while raping the planet (without getting too greenpeace on yall ). It's like for instance my mum will CONSTANTLY nag me to be 'productive' in society like that is the highest ideal just to WORK WORK WORK whereas for me I would want to tell me my kid to do whatever it takes to be happy. The majority of the population are 9-5'ers and don't envisage the benefit of taking mind altering substances to improve their overall wellbeing.

I suppose my main point is that Western society is deeply misguided on what makes them happy (ultimate materialists, I'm actually a big fan of materialism/reductionism but when used in service of the right ideals) although I'm certainly not knocking the technology we have made and think it's great it's just I think we should use it to attain happiness and not just live this shitty shallow life which has come to pass as the standard like blind automata clocking in and out. Drugs being used recreationally is a great sign of this very point, the technology being used to explore the recreational and hedonistic side of life- THE GREATEST IDEAL IN MY BOOK.

It's just that recently I've been thinking alot what society would be like if MDMA replaced alcohol as the country's drug of choice. That would be a serious upswing in human consciousness I think. Cos at the moment alcohol just breeds stupid fights and idiocy and triggers stupid 'pack' behaviour whereas, well you know where I'm going, MDMA would encourage lots of goodies. This I believe would have radical knock on effects to the overall social milieu even in the workplace/day to day cos the afterglow and general benefits of MDMA would have knockon effects which would follow through and ppl would be expressing and making connections, bla bla bla all the good stuff between their fellow men.

I.e. think of the average group of young guys drunk walking down the street. They are lairy and obnoxious and if alone one will mostly make efforts to avoid them while they are in such a stupefied state. Now replace that with same lads wrecked on high/pharmaceutical grade MDMA, the worse you'd probs expects (in general, always exceptions!) is them talking your earoff with complete but amusing/harmless bullshit! I know which I'd prefer .