Is buying drugs immoral?

[eckofire]

^^^ i think jdizzle was just trying to say that he's more worried that the DEA is going to bust down his door, or he will get arrested for having a joint, or maybe an un-warranted wiretap, than he's worried about al-qaeda bombing him or anything around him.

 

[bingalpaws]

Alright, I call bullshit. I'm getting tired of you misinformed people bitching about how Al Qaeda are just freedom fighters, fighting our tyrannical govt. Granted you fucks are saying this with a heated house, and full stomaches. See, granted there is much disillusion in the U.S. today, and a lot of injustices, we wont get shot for walking to a fucking church, nor do we run the risk of getting kidnapped, and potentially having our heads cut off. Anyone that says what Al Qaeda does is moral is wrong, plain and simple.

If you are so unsatisfied with what the government is doing why dont you send a message, strap a bomb to your chest, and go send out your message. It's extremely easy to criticize something at the luxury of your PC or laptop, in a comfortable chair.

lol you misinterpreted his post, *nowhere* in that quote did he even say that what al qaeda does is moral.

 

[bingalpaws]

(saying the 'morally superior' side does not imply said side actually has morals, rather they're morally superior only. Unfortunately the way it was written it could very well mean the entire 'drug facilitating' side which includes al qaeda but is not remotely limited to or centered around them.)

Everyone's said it a million times now, it's so damn clear I dunno how this made 3 pages lol:
It's not immoral because the things people are saying make it immoral, are not caused by the purchase of drugs, they're caused by drugs being prohibited, so that's kinda all there is to it!

 

[jdizzle]

Just to clarify, I don't believe what Al Qaeda or FARC does is moral by any means. Nor do I think what the DEA does is moral. I hate both organizations as they are both a threat to my freedom and way of life.

However, I believe the DEA and other law-enforcement agencies are a much more imminent threat to ME. I am far more concerned about being arrested and prosecuted by law enforcement for drug-related "crimes" than being beheaded on Al Jazeera or killed in a terrorist attack. Statistically, I believe this notion is justified. Compare the number of people locked up for non-violent drug offenses to the number of people directly harmed by Islamic or leftist "terrorist organizations". Get my drift?

I'd like to think of myself as an American patriot. I am a registered Republican *dodges tomato* but I think the drug war is an attack on our god-given rights and an insult to the spirit of this country's founders. Sorry for "hijacking".

Edit: Sorry if my original post wasn't clear. Late nights and copious OC's tend to do that to ya boy!

 

[bingalpaws]

great post!

 

[chicpoena]

However, I believe the DEA and other law-enforcement agencies are a much more imminent threat to ME. I am far more concerned about being arrested and prosecuted by law enforcement for drug-related "crimes" than being beheaded on Al Jazeera or killed in a terrorist attack. Statistically, I believe this notion is justified. Compare the number of people locked up for non-violent drug offenses to the number of people directly harmed by Islamic or leftist "terrorist organizations". Get my drift?

QFT! When the police have a warrant to arrest someone for drugs they usually bring along a SWAT team. Even if it's for a minor drug offense. The police are more fascist than they were 20 years ago because they can be. Whereas in the past your local sheriff would come arrest you after an investigation with his deputies, nowadays your local metro "narcotics" squad is called in to do a full out SWAT operation because the cops don't want to risk being under-prepared AND because it helps them get future funding for more drug operations.

Every time I see a cop I think of him as my enemy. Because it is a war and WE are their enemies. Like a game of cat and mouse. The Drug War is fought against American citizens at EVERY LEVEL of government, from schools drug testing students to your local cops to the state drug squads to the DEA. In contrast, the "War on Terror" (whatever that means) is primarily fought at a national level although some could argue that local cops are somewhat involved, but really only in the event of an attack.

I bet you cops are MORE on the look-out for drug users to arrest than terrorists. You know, because drug users are such a threat to national security 8)

 

[bingalpaws]

another good post, just some things I wanted to point out:
- you're dead right about how often SWAT comes in, even for something as small as a non-violent dealer suspected of a COUPLE ounces of POT.
- however, this isn't about being underprepared, or even necessarily future funding, it's because of the SWAT-boom. SWAT teams have increased at an alarming pace in areas that have no need for SWAT teams, so once they're there, they need to be used. Enter drug warrants, which are most commonly low-level marijuana cases.
- you don't need to be a drug user to feel a cop is your enemy/adversary. Simply the color of your skin, depending where you live, can be enough to cause this, and many times it's more than just 'feeling' they're an adversary.

 

[IcarusRisen]

As a WASP male, who looks like an all american guy, I've been let off for so many things that anyone of a different race would have gone to jail for. It's kind of sad.

 

[TheodoreRoosevelt]

There's no way you can seperate the morality of the US government's criminalization and the fact that as such, our money goes to those we don't exactly like.

What I mean about no need to talk about legalization, is that you're preaching to the choir man. We all support legalization, so there's no need to discuss it I see. Sure, legalize it, I'm all for it, we all are. Doesn't change the situation though.

I see a lot of great posts here, not much I can really add.

I mean, does ANYONE here know who the hell is funding the drug operations in the Golden Crescent and Golden Triangle? I know over 80% of the world's heroin is from Afghanistan, especially since the Taliban left, but what, who is making it?

Obviously back in the Vietnam War era it was immoral to buy heroin because it came from the Viet Cong and funded communist regimes. But is something similar going on today?

 

[jdizzle]

What I mean about no need to talk about legalization, is that you're preaching to the choir man. We all support legalization, so there's no need to discuss it I see. Sure, legalize it, I'm all for it, we all are. Doesn't change the situation though.

I see a lot of great posts here, not much I can really add.

I mean, does ANYONE here know who the hell is funding the drug operations in the Golden Crescent and Golden Triangle? I know over 80% of the world's heroin is from Afghanistan, especially since the Taliban left, but what, who is making it?

Obviously back in the Vietnam War era it was immoral to buy heroin because it came from the Viet Cong and funded communist regimes. But is something similar going on today?

I am sure some of the cocaine profits go to the FARC and heroin profits go to Islamic extremists.

 

[bingalpaws]

some is probably an understatement, farc finances itself pretty much 100% from coca as far as I've heard (that's not to say the right wing paramilitaries, their rebel name/code escapes me at the moment, aren't very heavily involved as well. I do believe that farc is more hands on, generally speaking).

 

[jdizzle]

some is probably an understatement, farc finances itself pretty much 100% from coca as far as I've heard (that's not to say the right wing paramilitaries, their rebel name/code escapes me at the moment, aren't very heavily involved as well. I do believe that farc is more hands on, generally speaking).

I believe the right-wingers are the AUC.

I agree with you that "some" is an understatement. I wonder how much the of the Islamic's funding comes from drugs and how much comes from donations (oil revenue).

Which brings me to this point: Mr Roosevelt, if you are so worried about funding terrorists with your money, you would probably have more of an impact boycotting oil. Have you considered this or is this too inconvenient?

PS. Not trying to bash you, just want to bring this up for discussion. And I can actually say this without much hypocrisy as I don't own a car and walk or take the train pretty much everywhere these days.

 

[TheodoreRoosevelt]

if you are so worried about funding terrorists with your money, you would probably have more of an impact boycotting oil. Have you considered this or is this too inconvenient?

Actually, no. I did a study on this a while back (and actually currently doing another paper which I hope to have published in the National Bureau of Economic Research), but America has a large supply of domestic oil, the plurality of it. Our biggest supplier of imported oil is Canada, and 2nd it Mexico. We also have many US based and UK based companies (well, BP for uk really) that have oil developments in other countries, such as in Africa and Asia, that are exporting oil to us.

Only a very small portion of our oil consumption is from other countries, with just 15% of it coming from OPEC. We do not buy oil from Iran. The only country we buy oil from that I have issue with is Venezuela, which I don't since I don't think they are a large supporter of terrorism (although they are realyl fucked up domestically and Chavez is a terrible dictator).

Even if some of our oil money goes to terrorists, which it doesn't seem to be the case, a large amount of oil at the pump goes to domestic oil companies and oil companies from assuredly pro-US sources. I actually am more than happy to buy gas here in America, and supporting the oil industry is one of the best things you can do for our economy. The pass-through rate of oil investments and gas at the pump is very high, and the idea that "oil companies are price gouging" has been consistently been proven false. The oil industry is one of the best industries for America, and great for our economy. They are also the biggest pioneers of alternate energies and new resource innovation. The idea that oil is bad is pretty harmful, and the US should be focused more on new petroleum technology and finding new reserves rather than alternative oil sources.

Although I haven't finished my paper, so I can't say for sure how much new oil reserves benefit our economy, but they do.

PS. Not trying to bash you, just want to bring this up for discussion.

Oh no, none taken.

I am sure some of the cocaine profits go to the FARC and heroin profits go to Islamic extremists.

Well, can you tell me why you think this? I know a lot of heroin is coming from the Golden Crescent and Triangle, but that doesn't mean that terrorists are behind it.

I do know for a fact that terrorists are getting a large amount of their money from state sponsors. Iran has already publicly stated they give large sums of money of shi'ite terrorists groups like Hizbollah, and Afghanistan used to give money to al-qaida before we came in. Iraq also gave money for terrorist organizations before we invaded in 2003 (though it is not proven they gave any specifically to al-qaida, besides allowing them safe haven).

I know many of us have suspicions, but does anyone know for a fact that any terrorist organizations are profiting from the drug trade?

 

[jdizzle]

Actually, no. I did a study on this a while back (and actually currently doing another paper which I hope to have published in the National Bureau of Economic Research), but America has a large supply of domestic oil, the plurality of it. Our biggest supplier of imported oil is Canada, and 2nd it Mexico. We also have many US based and UK based companies (well, BP for uk really) that have oil developments in other countries, such as in Africa and Asia, that are exporting oil to us.

Only a very small portion of our oil consumption is from other countries, with just 15% of it coming from OPEC. We do not buy oil from Iran. The only country we buy oil from that I have issue with is Venezuela, which I don't since I don't think they are a large supporter of terrorism (although they are realyl fucked up domestically and Chavez is a terrible dictator).

Even if some of our oil money goes to terrorists, which it doesn't seem to be the case, a large amount of oil at the pump goes to domestic oil companies and oil companies from assuredly pro-US sources. I actually am more than happy to buy gas here in America, and supporting the oil industry is one of the best things you can do for our economy. The pass-through rate of oil investments and gas at the pump is very high, and the idea that "oil companies are price gouging" has been consistently been proven false. The oil industry is one of the best industries for America, and great for our economy. They are also the biggest pioneers of alternate energies and new resource innovation. The idea that oil is bad is pretty harmful, and the US should be focused more on new petroleum technology and finding new reserves rather than alternative oil sources.

Sounds like a well-informed opinion. I don't particularly agree that buying oil is all that detrimental to our security, but I believe that conservation and efficiency are necessities. Agreed in regards to Venezuala.

Well, can you tell me why you think this? I know a lot of heroin is coming from the Golden Crescent and Triangle, but that doesn't mean that terrorists are behind it.

I do know for a fact that terrorists are getting a large amount of their money from state sponsors. Iran has already publicly stated they give large sums of money of shi'ite terrorists groups like Hizbollah, and Afghanistan used to give money to al-qaida before we came in. Iraq also gave money for terrorist organizations before we invaded in 2003 (though it is not proven they gave any specifically to al-qaida, besides allowing them safe haven).

I know many of us have suspicions, but does anyone know for a fact that any terrorist organizations are profiting from the drug trade?

Who do you think is getting all the money from 90% off the world's illicit poppy supply? Personally I think its the warlords with the AK's and RPG's. The same ones that shoot at our soldiers. I don't have first hand knowledge, but I am sure you can find a ton of stuff on Google. (Sorry I am not more convincing tonite- 2 blunts and 240mg of OC.)

FARC's involvement in the cocaine is pretty well documented. I am way tired and will try to post more later.

 

[snakjaw]

Obviously back in the Vietnam War era it was immoral to buy heroin because it came from the Viet Cong and funded communist regimes. But is something similar going on today?

Well, now if you buy many consumer goods some of the money could go to the genocidal totalitarian regime in China. Or it could go to hate-mongering fundamentalists who own businesses in the United States. If you buy oil, the money could go to fascist zealots in Saudi Arabia. Or to Dick Cheney.

Buying drugs is no different from any of that. We live in the world. But, at least every dollar spent on drugs is a drop in the river that will eventually erode one particular hateful wall.

 

[phatass]

I feel worse giving my money to pharmaceutical companies.

i agree... just as corrupt as any of the corrup african governments money might be goin to (nigeria...), pharm companies allways seem to "forget" to write on theire notices "oh yea... and it might makee you want to kill yourself" little bit of info that can be quite usefull... they sell meds at extortionate prices... oh and every kid in the US has ADHD??? since when??? BS... oh you're feelin a bit down.. here we'll dope you up on prozac... feel better? yeah... want to quit prozac? good luck fucker now your hooked....

othawise street drugs money goes mainly to miltia in columbia, afghanistan n so on... but gotta stop n think... terrorists, or freedom fighters??? if a bunch of muslim peeps with guns came to where i lived n said, "you're going to be a fundamental muslim state from now on " cause thats what they believe in... i woulmd be pretty pissed off n would fight for my "freedom"....

 

[bingalpaws]

Which brings me to this point: Mr Roosevelt, if you are so worried about funding terrorists with your money, you would probably have more of an impact boycotting oil.

Even if some of our oil money goes to terrorists, which it doesn't seem to be the case, a large amount of oil at the pump goes to domestic oil companies and oil companies from assuredly pro-US sources. I actually am more than happy to buy gas here in America, and supporting the oil industry is one of the best things you can do for our economy. Although I haven't finished my paper, so I can't say for sure how much new oil reserves benefit our economy, but they do.

See that doesn't work though, if you buy coke or H you don't know where it's from either, so whether oil or hard drugs you still have the chance it was from somewhere you didn't like, so the principle should extend.

Further, on the point of 'some/most' of the cash goes to people in the US/domestic sources, that holds true for the drugs as well, the markup occurs here in the states and not colombia or afghanistan, and it goes through many hands here in the US. Of course, then we can bring up the negative externalities of those who deal within the country, but again that all goes back to the fact that what they do that may be viewed as morally wrong is, in the end, that way because the market is kept illicit.

, but does anyone know for a fact that any terrorist organizations are profiting from the drug trade?

what kind of evidence do you need for fact? I've never been below the border nor to afghanistan, but there's very little doubt/disagreement on who is running what (warlords controlling opium territories in afghanistan and the army+both sides of the rebels within colombia).

(Sorry I am not more convincing tonite- 2 blunts and 240mg of OC.)

wow, that sounds soooo fucking fun... and tough to come off of . God I feel jealousy and kinda sorry simultaneously!!

 

[jdizzle]

wow, that sounds soooo fucking fun... and tough to come off of . God I feel jealousy and kinda sorry simultaneously!!

That's why we have Subutex.

 

[Tryptamine*Dreamer]

I see nothing immoral about buying or selling drugs.

Also, I'd happily continue buying drugs even if I knew terrorists to be profiting from it. Maybe then the insane drug policy would come back to bite this country in the ass - a good thing IMO. America and other prohibitionist countries deserve nothing less than to pay the price for their failed war on some drugs.

 

[Ham-milton]

I don't believe that much drug money goes into the hands of Al-Qaida. Mostly it seems to be grown by dirt poor farmers trying to get ahead, purchased by various traders and them moved out of the country to be processed into heroin.

AFAIK, little heroin is actually produced within afghanistan. Opium comes out of there, is moved out to far-eastern asia where the apparatus is in place for production, and then on to us.

It's my understanding that the "Buy Drugs, Support the Enemy" commercial that was aired after the Super Bowl in 2002 (or 3?) has been fairly well debunked.

The DEA and UNOCP and the ONDCP (but especially the UNODC, which makes this all publically available) have some papers that cover the various routes that heroin takes, and what we know about it's production.

You'd have to read it, though.

Here's on paper on the subject, from 2006.