Injecting at raves/dance parties/nightclubs

[chugs]

^^^ is it safe and acceptable if you have a pure/clean substance?

 

[aunty establishment]

I will not stand down to people who find the practise of injecting as safe and acceptable

Nobody has said that injecting is safe and acceptable. From a health perspective, NO drug use is acceptable. Harm reduction is about accepting the choices that people have made, and making it as safe as possible while they still choose to use those drugs. It is only one part of a much broader strategy to reduce drugs in the community.

I don't think p_d was insulting your intelligence. I know from reading your posts (sonicnature) that you have friends with serious injecting issues and I feel for them. It's just clear that you are seeing this issue from within your own frame and ignoring the benefits to the community at large. The whole point of HR activities around IV use is to help prevent people getting seriously ill, as your friend is.

 

[ANDO420]

Having these units available is definitely NOT discouraging the use of needles in nightclubs or at raves.

They arnt there to discourage users, they are there to encourage safe drug use!!!!

My personal opinion is, that if there are safe needle disposal units in bathrooms/toilets, it is giving the IV user a place where it is seen as acceptable to use needles for drug use

As i asked before, do pill testers encourage people to use pills, or are they there to make it safer??????

people are always going to do drugs regardless, so making it safer for both the user's and non users is the only way to go!!!

 

[phase_dancer]

My comments possibly did sound a little derogatory; sorry about that. I guess it comes from being a bit sick of people (some of my friends included) who put shit on injecting users, while they themselves play hard and certainly push the envelope as far as safety is concerned. However, I do see blood borne diseases as being a big issue, as are abuse potential and possible health effects from injecting.

I don't wish to insult your intelligence sonicnature, in fact I regard you as someone who is definitely in the "other camp" intelligence wise. As can be expected, in regards to your own experiences, when something like this hits close to home, its a tough one and stirs strong emotions. When my best friend died from heroin related causes - particulars of the event would rival a Fleming novel - I was bitter at everyone who had anything to do with the drug, or injecting. But now - further down the line - being someone who smoked and insufflated drugs for many years and is now experiencing health problems which I'm convinced are related, I tend to see the healthy injecting users I know as not being so worse off for it. Many of these people were careful right from the start; only using pure gear sourced from close to the poppies, and never sharing from the moment it was recognised as being dangerous.

These are the people who don't have Hep C or HIV after 20+ years, and apart from using, continue their lives in accordance with society's and friends expectations. They are courteous, obliging and respectful of those who don't use or support using. It often means their using habits remain a secret to those close to them, but in some ways, some of these people are the strongest minded and most pure of spirit people I've known. I guess when half your friends are dead, and you're still using, at the outcome you are likely to be at one end of the "together" scale or the other - if that makes any sense

We could get into the differences in choice of drug as opposed to choice of route of administration, but in the end the arguments are much the same. Minimising harm through a clean environment, sound educational messages and a safe means of disposal, usually paints a much rosier picture than a scenario where a user, unaware of potential risks, forgets he/she has a used syringe in his pocket and jumps up at the sound of a fav choon for a dance 8(

So my apologies sonicnature. Perhaps my above statement should have clarified that last remark by instead saying learn to accept there will always be others' that do things you might never contemplate...(nor understand their reasons for doing so)

 

[Flexistentialist]

I've had a fair amount of experience in this area, having been employed to provide clean injecting equipment as well as disposal facilities at dance parties / music festivals etc a few years ago.

Most people at parties will go outside to inject in someones car. While this isn't ideal, it does mean that people can have a sharps bin on hand to store their used fits in.

If you're inside a party, it's very difficult to carry a sharps bin around with you all night. That means that most people who inject inside nightclubs / dance parties won't have access to the usual disposal equipment people have available, and there is an increase risk of unsafe disposal. That's why sharps bins should be installed anywhere that has a problem with unsafe disposal, including nightclub / party toilets if that happens to be the case.

Having said that, I've only ever found one unsafely disposed needle at a party, and (surprise surprise) there were no sharps disposal facilities on site at that event.

 

[clocker]

IF it does become a problem, i would rather walk into the toilets and see one of those yellow disposal things on the wall than seeing needles just on the ground. It hasn't come to this, and i hope it doesn't.

The users that would "do it anyway" regardless of disposal bins would hardly be the type to care to use the bins. Everyone should have their little yellow container with them at all times, but junkies don't think like that.

^^^ is it safe and acceptable if you have a pure/clean substance?

You won't find this on the street...ever. This is coming from a chemistry background.

They arnt there to discourage users, they are there to encourage safe drug use!!!!

Safe drug use is an oxymoron, just like safe sex it doesn't exist. There can be "safer" drug use but it's never close to safe. The bins aren't minimising risks for the users only the other party goers. Without there being any definitive studies on bins influencing needle use were are just speculating. I however, don't like the idea of needles being used at raves, it goes passed the point of just wanting a good night out with friends and great tunes.

 

[ayjay]

^I don't know about any studies looking at changes in frequency of injecting and presence of disposal bins. However, there are PLENTY of studies showing that providing needle/syringe program services, including disposal, doesn't increase frequency of injecting, or number of injecting drug users. Providing equipment, education and disposal to people who inject drugs has an absolutely massive evidence base behind it - in fact, it stands out as one of the most effective and research-proven strategies for preventing drug related harm. If you want to check some of this out, try the ANCAHRD archive site:
http://www.ancahrd.org/pubs/

The interesting publications there are:
NSP return on investment study
NSP: your questions answered and a review of the evidence (currently being updated and reprinted, but you can download the 2000 version)

It's frankly disgusting to see people squabbling about what is or is not an acceptable route of administration for one's drug/s of choice. Straight Australia hates us all - we're all fucking junkies in their eyes. If people happen to inject , for whatever reason, the last thing they need is stigmatisation and rejection. What the fuck happened to PLUR

Sorry if I'm getting a bit heated - just remember who invented harm reduction (no - not the Ottawa Charter) - the Dutch Junkies Union

 

[chugs]

it goes passed the point of just wanting a good night out with friends and great tunes.

no it doesn't - a good time equates to stimulation of your pleasure centres. Sure it might a healthy way of getting your neruons buzzing but injecting is in no way any less more extreme in achieving the same ends

Does the ends justify the means or does the means justify the ends. Eitherway you look at there cannot be any "right" way of seeking pleasure.

The consequence however are radically different but again that shouldn't forbid you from doing it as long as you taking drugs in a clean and proper manner.

I wonder however with drugs, saying heroin, one would package with say glucose as a cutting agent.

Does glucose provide enough food for any foreign bacteria or fungi to grow in? For that matter unless someone puts sugar in your drugs are any of the known cutting agents provide a sufficent medium for the growth of bacteria (which could harm you if you injected it)?

 

[ayjay]

^Good question. To my knowledge, the majority of infections caused by injecting in Australia are found to be staph bacteria, hence most likely from poor infection control on the part of the person injecting, rather than contaminated drugs. There have been cases of wound botulism reported in the UK, linked to contaminated heroin (alkaline, tar heroin still containing plant matter).

There have been cases in Australia of people getting fungal infections in their eyes (candida) after injecting Subutex tablets (buprenorphine). This is almost certainly due to the Subbies being scooped from the mouth while the chemist isn't looking - and what a filthy cess-pit the mouth is! The maize starch that is the main tablet filler in Subbies is a marvelous growth medium too, I'm sure...

 

[sonicnature]

p_d, thankyou for your response and clarification. this is an excellent thread

 

[ANDO420]

^^ agreed, good thread

 

[Oceanboy]

ADMINISTRATION DISCRIMINATION?


I see that this discussion is perhaps because some people choose to discriminate against people's own free will to use certain administration methods.

phase dancer:"that doesn't mean I disrespect IV users anymore than someone who smokes, pops, snorts or plugs. Choice is their's, regardless of how socially tasteful it might or might not be."

Well said PD!

chugs: is it safe and acceptable if you have a pure/clean substance?

Well of course it is, that is why medical professionals use this method. It is endorsed by the UN WHO and hospitals and surgeries and General Practioners all over the planet.How can it not be safe and acceptable with a pure clean substance of the correct amount in a hygienic method with correct administration unless it be within people's own or group mind-sets?

aunty establishment:

quoting phase dancer

I will not stand down to people who find the practise of injecting as safe and acceptable

Oceanboy says"that is your choice to " not stand down to such people, however that does not mean injecting cannot be safe and acceptable; i.e., able to be accepted as a successful method of administration."


Nobody has said that injecting is safe and acceptable. From a health perspective, NO drug use is acceptable.

Oceanboy:Well I am saying that injecting CAN and IS safe and acceptable.It depends on amongst other things;
Environmental factors; Setting,Hygiene
Substance; Purity,Type,Dosage
Beings involved in procedure; experience,intentions
Social Ratifcation Levels.

clocker:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
^^^ is it safe and acceptable if you have a pure/clean substance?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

You won't find this on the street...ever. This is coming from a chemistry background.

Why won't one find this on the street( and you add ever-????) I for myself have first hand witnessed pure clean substances on the "street". I am part street rat (and a hygienic one at that) and I know because I have seen it and it was all good. A lot of it was more pure and safer than many supermarket and chemist products. Are you stating that you know about the "street" because you have a chemistry background?8( Well I be coming from a street, a medical, a clubbing and raving, a health, a fitness, a scientific and a rave safe background.

clocker:Safe drug use is an oxymoron, just like safe sex it doesn't exist.

As if there is no safe drug use or no safe sex, I mean what dimension are you in?

clocker:There can be "safer" drug use but it's never close to safe.

It is always safe if it is safe so how could safe use not be safe?

I'll leave for the moment for an official statement from the

A SAFE INJECTION DOES NO HARM.

 

[ANDO420]

Yea I agree with what you are saying, I have nothing against iv users, but how many users consider and follow the safety mesures that you mentioned?

Its the users choice to stick a needle in their arm, but when a non-user or safe user gets a needlestick injury it's not there choice, so if putting disposal bins in toilets help even just a few people to avoid getting pricked then harm minimisation has worked imo

 

[aunty establishment]

Re: ADMINISTRATION DISCRIMINATION?

How can it not be safe and acceptable with a pure clean substance of the correct amount in a hygienic method with correct administration unless it be within people's own or group mind-sets?

Because the drug itself has inherent risks. Even in a therapeutic scenario, administration of any drug has risks - these risks are just more comprehensively managed by medical practitioners.

Using a drug for purely recreational purposes (by ANY mode of administration, which is the point I was making) invokes a degree of risk, while not using the drug would have less overall health risk. That's all I was saying. I'm very pro-choice. But there's a reason we call it harm reduction, not harm elimination.

 

[neverwas]

The consequence however are radically different but again that shouldn't forbid you from doing it as long as you taking drugs in a clean and proper manner.

agreed. im not sure where i stand on injecting at raves and nightclubs etc...i would never do it myself...ive had a friend do it once and i asked him to not do it near me cause it made me uncomfortable. So he proceeded off to the toilets to do it. There were no needle disposal units at this event so he placed his needle in an old beer bottle, screwed the lid on and placed it back in his car.

Placeing more needle disposal units will of course encourage users to use needles at raves but i would much prefer to see them place used one in the proper disposal unit than to walk in the toilet and see them over the floor or tread on one myself...

But then again, I've realised I'm quite naive on this issue, as I believed there was more IV use going on in the train stations then at a rave. I'm going to look more carefully next rave!

its easy to be naive...the magority or people who sit there and go "it wont happen to me" are naive

on a side note...the nightclubs i worked at last year all had needle disposal units on the backs of toilet doors. i never saw anyone injecting and dumping needles but i busted quite a FEW girls sharing cubicles to do lines.... there were a lot of pill poppers etc etc but the number of IV /IM users certianlly didnt increase when the units were installed.

 

[clocker]

Well of course it is, that is why medical professionals use this method. It is endorsed by the UN WHO and hospitals and surgeries and General Practioners all over the planet.How can it not be safe and acceptable with a pure clean substance of the correct amount in a hygienic method with correct administration unless it be within people's own or group mind-sets?

No it isn't absolutely safe. Doctor's will never prefer too prescribe/use medication that requires injection because it is inherently more risky in a few ways:

1> Overdose is much easier and comes on faster

2>Risk of infection. (you can take all the precautions in the world and still get screwed). Your skin shouldn't be punctured for a reason.

3> Risk of injury, whether that be bruising or hitting a nerve. (even trained health care professionals get it wrong).

4> Adverse reactions are of a higher frequency and severity.

IV is only ever used by doctor's if it is absolutely necessary because it is more risky and increases the chances of them being sued when something goes wrong. It's their last choice.

 

[clocker]

the number of IV /IM users certianlly didnt increase when the units were installed.

With all due repect though, you really wouldn't know unless you watched each person in the toilets, which I'm assuming you couldn't have because people don't like other people watching them in toilet cubicles.

i asked him to not do it near me cause it made me uncomfortable.

Same here, it's a bad road to follow and you just don;t want to think about that when you are peaking. Why do it to yourself?

 

[neverwas]

With all due repect though, you really wouldn't know unless you watched each person in the toilets, which I'm assuming you couldn't have because people don't like other people watching them in toilet cubicles.

See i think if people were injecting the "harder" drugs in my work places i would certainlly be able to pick up on it...

please dont insult me with rounds of "thats bullshit" cause part of my work is keeping an eye on people who use drugs in nightclubs and pubs etc etc

No i dont have xray vision or watch people when they go to the toilet but you learn to pick signs. Working in Kings Cross i could spot a person who was going to use a needle in the toilet as soon as they walked into the toilet.

 

[sonicnature]

^ sorry babe, but what you are saying is not really true..

users who indulge in a substance frequently can definitely disguise the external/visual effects much better than one who does not. There is no way you could possibly determine whether there are more, or less users injecting (or taking substances) in a venue unless you saw them doing it, or were disposing of their waste.

I've worked in nightclubs for years also, and drug use is becoming so prevalent in society now that you cannot deny there are more and more users every day.

 

[ANDO420]

^^Yea they can disguise the effect's to some extent, but there are things that you just cant hide, take a good mdma pill and try not to grind your teeth, take good speed and try not to swett